The Evangelical Universalist Forum

You worship the wrong Jesus and have a different gospel

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#21

I have been an ECT Christian for 42 years and have leaned toward UR for a very short time. I haven’t fully made up my mind. If the God of the scriptures does place unbelievers in hell for eternity, there must be a good reason to do so that I don’t yet fully understand. I will worship and love him no matter what. If I decide that the scriptures support UR will Jesus suddenly think I just switched Jesus’? I think that is a silly thought. I will say it again:

We all have error in our understanding of God. Even our conception of God as a trinity, which I believe to be true, is our explanation of how we think God reveals himself in the scriptures. I think we will all be surprised when we see him face to face and realize what he is really like: “Ohhhhhh, so that’s what you meant by that…!! I thought it was like this…”(as we are bowing in worship). **We will all be wrong, to some degree, on every doctrine that we believe, even the most accurate one.

#22

Yes, my love for God is not contingent upon my understanding of God. And if tomorrow I came to realize that I’ve been wrong and that Jesus does not save all of humanity (for whatever reason) but consigns people to be tormented forever, I’d love Him still, trusting in Him because He is God. But of course, one cannot build faith upon “What if’s”; rather, we build our faith on “What is.”

Of course, once one has a revelation of the goodness and mercy of God, the height, width, and depth of His love, and swam in its depths, few would want to go back to only wading in the shallows! I’m glad that you have faith in Christ for salvation for yourself; and I hope that your faith will grow to include salvation for others too.

#23

Nah… I’d say, “Monster! Get off that throne! How dare you blaspheme God’s good name? Where is he? What have you done with him?”

#24

Great thread everyone, I’ve enjoyed reading it and even had a few laughs :slight_smile:

There are so many things that could be commented on.

Like others, yes I did, but it would be hard to go back to that way of thinking now that I’ve been convinced (I think by the Holy Spirit) that it’s Biblical (thanks to DeRose, Talbott & Parry) and not just a nice idea or wishful thinking.

I suspect if ECT turns out to be true, that I’ll be in it, as it would indicate that God’s love doesn’t win and *most *people are stuffed. Those in Heaven must have ceased loving those in Hell, which to me would reinforce that God *isn’t *love, but something else :neutral_face:

As to how perfect our doctrine needs to be to satisfy Jesus, I honestly don’t know, but suspect it matters more how much we love one another as Christ has loved us. I still think it can be very beneficial to try to discover, and help others discover, what is true and right and that’s often found within the Bible.

Amen!

Awesome!

#25

Hi Chris,

Jesus had quite a bit to say about who were really His disciples.

John 15:8-14
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Some want to hold people to their own theological belief system–or damn them to Hell forever, but I don’t see that as scriptural. If it was, I think Jesus would have spend a lot more time teaching all the details of the correct belief system than He did.

Or maybe He does teach a belief system and it’s a lot less complicated than we like, so we don’t pay much attention to it. “Love God, love your neighbor” this is the fulfillment of the law of God. Treat others as good as you want to be treated (justice), take care of the poor and weak (mercy), do your good works in secret (humility), love your enemy (forgive), be altogether good from your heart and thoughts (righteousness), lay down your life for others (love).

There are many things we can all agree on… why do we fight over the things that are less clear? It is so plain in scripture what things God most values, yet we seem so ready to neglect the greater things of the law to quibble over the mint and herbs.

The good news is that the kingdom of heaven is at hand–the time when the will of God will be done on earth as it is in heaven. When righteousness will prevail and evil will be punished. Injustice and unrighteousness will no longer be tolerated, the persecuted will be vindicated, the helpless will receive help, the sick will be healed, the captives set free, “good” will be rewarded and “evil” be stopped. Praise God! The salvation of the world is at hand!

Sonia

#26

The truth is the truth, and if that is how the Ultimate Truth Himself really is, I would still do my best to love God and to let Him lead me to love Him.

I loved God when I was a non-universalist; and I still love God now. I rejoice more now that I believe that He will persist in saving all sinners from sin. In that sense I can say my love has increased with the increase of my hope in God that someday I will be able to love all persons in full fair-togetherness with them under God (and on God’s holy mountain), thus fulfilling the second as well as the first of the Great Commandments (upon which hang all the Law and the Prophets): to love my neighbor as I love myself, as well as to love God will all my heart and mind and soul and strength and with all my understanding!

I could go back to the hopelessness of love to my neighbor (whoever they are) being someday fulfilled, if I absolutely had to, and still love God. But it wouldn’t be the same. I would know I was loving less, not more. That’s a cause for grief, not for rejoicing. Faith, hope and love would have failed after all, instead of those three remaining when all other things have passed away. Sin would have hyperexceeded grace; or else God would not be essentially love in His own intrinsic self-existence (which would have to mean that trinitarian theism also turned out to be false after all and I would be left with some kind of Arianism at best, or maybe Islam or something that at least respected Jesus.)

For God not to be love, means love is in fact less real than I believed it to be; and that would no doubt lead to me loving God less. But only because less love turned out to be the truth after all.

If God is not essentially love, then by definition we cannot possibly love God, or any created person for that matter, as much as those of us who believe this hope and pray and expectantly look forward to. Be we can still love God as much as happens to be possibly true–however much less that is, than if God truly is love.

But less love can only be less love.

#27

There is ONE truth therefore we can’t all be right with our different “truths”

Of course we can know, it’s in scripture. Read FIRST, SECOND and THIRD John

Jehovah Witnesses say, Jesus is a created being- Michael the arch angel and not God Himself

Mormons say, Jesus is a created being-brother of Satan and not God Himself

We say, Jesus always has been, He is the Son of God and God. Do we three have the same Jesus? yet we all call ourselves “Christian”

You are supporting the very thing you are arguing against. You don’t like doctrine because doctrine divides yet you yourself are giving me doctrine.
You are getting ahead of yourself, I never said, who is or isn’t going to hell. I merely said, we all can’t be Christian if we have different truths; water baptism, speaking in tongues are non essentials and nothing to argue over. That is why correct doctrine is important.
I have met a few Christians who don’t believe in hell yet I still consider them my Christian brother and sister albeit spiritually immature of not comprehending how exceedingly sinful sin is but universalist up the ante and go on to say, that they could never worship or love a God of eternal torment but that is who “our” God is so how do we love the same God? We don’t love the idea of eternal torment but we still love and trust our God that the decision of eternal torment is right and just.

Of course we are in error to some degree but the bible is very clear on what that path is, Jesus is the only way and using a systematic theology shows who that Jesus is. My friend if I have the character and nature of God wrong then I am not a Christian but an idolator and the bible is clear about idolators. I am not saying, you are going to hell furthermore believe what you want but please don’t try to convince me of the illogic that we can all have different “truths” (character and nature of God) and be worshiping the same God.

God Bless!

#28

Ok…Sounds like we worship the same God

TalK to a Jehovah Witness lately? :smiley:

That is true but you are taking that approach to an extreme. It is true we don’t have it perfect as we are sinners but we do have what God wanted us to “know” The bible is clear. To use that as a defence is promoting ambiguity as then everybody could use that from practicing homosexuals, mystics etc…Why did Paul even establish church structure or why even have pastors, elders etc…just stay home and worship God the way you would interpret scripture. God Bless!

#29

Oxy, he’s not using it to promote “ambiguity”, he’s using it to encourage everyone to walk in humility recognizing that each one of us could be wrong about any given belief; and encouraging us to be accepting of one another though we understand God differently, especially all whose faith is in Jesus.

Concerning the Bible being “clear”, even 2 Peter notes that some of the things Paul wrote are hard to understand. The Bible is far from “clear”; it’s a profound, inspired I believe, collection of writings from people in vastly different cultures, with radically differing languages and world views; it’s an inexhaustable dimond and gold mine! But it takes a lot of digging, work. Even Paul encouraged Timothy to apply himself so that he could correctly use the scriptures.

Why are there so many different denominations? Mainly because of our selfish tendencies of pride and self-righteousness which promote disunity in the body of Christ, expecting everyone to understand or misunderstand the Lord like I do, not recognizing the need for and value of the great diversity in the body of Christ. And btw, if you want to stay home and not be part of a local fellowship, that’s between you and the Lord. God has often called people to be seperate from the rest of the herd so that He could teach them something. And throughout history groups of believers have cast aside, excluded, even persecuted those who came to believe differently than their traditions. In my case, when I came to believe that Jesus really is the savior of all humanity (not just some, in deed not just title) I was glad to continue worshipping with the local fellowship I was a part of, and most of the members including the Pastor was glad for me to continue as a member of the church, not seeing UR as a reason to break fellowship. But a couple of the elder members freaked out and started causing trouble which ultimately resulted in me needing to leave the fellowship so as to not allow division to come to that fellowship. It was very sad, breaking the hearts of all involved, especially mine and my family’s hearts.

Why do we gather together to worship God? To encourage and strengthen eachother, to build one another up, to learn with and from one another. Why do we gather on this forum? For the same reasons. And we gather together primarily because we want to, we long for fellowship. It’s one of our most basic needs as humans. We long to know others and to be known by others. When it devolves into a sence of “must do”, we’ve lost contact with the reason for gathering. If one doesn’t desire to gather at any given time or on any regular basis, then don’t do so out of a sense of obligation. That’s like giving. If you want to give, give; if you don’t, don’t. Give as you’ve purposed in your heart.

#30

Like I commented in another thread; In the Christian church as we know it, what is considered “truth” is decided by majority opinion (which is a logical fallacy). This is how we ended up with things like ECT in the first place.

Even the word Orthodoxy just means “right thinking” or “right opinion”. The funny thing is, what is now considered orthodox used to be considered heresy.

You bet I’m preaching a different gospel, but it’s the right one. Jesus was considered a heretic by the religious leaders of his day, so I don’t really expect any different as a Jesus follower.

Those who hold the majority opinion are the real heretics.
Fortunately, we’re not gnostics, so it isn’t right doctrine that saves us. (It sure makes having a conscience a heck of a lot easier, though).

#31

Again this thread is not about who is right but if we both worship the same God. God Bless!

Wow! now that’s a strawman :slight_smile: not to mention comparing yourself to Christ…WOW!

#32

To a degree I agree with you but I have seen this used by people who claim that the Apostle Paul was a closet homosexual because somehow we really didn’t understand what he meant.

I understand and I wasn’t making the claim he was doing this intentionally furthermore that is not humble my friend as it takes just as much pride to tell people to walk in humility and that we shouldn’t be dogmatic because we could be wrong.

My friend unity in the church, at the expense of Biblical truth, is wrong and not scriptural. God Bless! :slight_smile:

#33

That’s kind of the implied point isn’t it? Who is right = who is worshiping the right God; are we worshiping the same God, for I assume my God is right?

It isn’t difficult for one to make that connection.

He’s just stating a fact. Not presenting an imaginary opponent to have a logical shadowboxing match with.

Now this, is closer to what a strawman is.

Sorry Melchizedek, I just couldn’t sit by idle, sorry for butting in. :blush:

#34

Well your connection is a stretch and nothing is implied. I am a presuppositionalist and I have stated in this forum I could be wrong.

Well it was misrepresented in so many ways (let me count the ways) I like to call it the “martyr fallacy” Once you are deemed a heretic, aborrent teacher etc…they pull out the “Jesus card”. Rick Warren, Benny Hinn etc… have all done that.

I will give you that. That was a strawman (or was I stating a fact) but to reciprocate the unfair remark he made. Glad you caught it. God Bless! :slight_smile:

#35

Good. Then I’ll stand corrected.

And so have genuine Christians in the face of persecution.

#36

I have never met any Christian in the United States who has been persecuted, being called a heretic is not persecution. I myself believe in “Lordship salvation” and many deem that to be heresy but I don’t consider that persecution…condemned, rebuked but not persecuted. God Bless! :slight_smile:

#37

I think you missed the sentiment of my post. But, that is life, what can you do. shrugs lol

#38

I don’t even know where to start for you have completely misunderstood nearly everything I have said. I don’t know how I can be more clear. Perhaps I’ll try to answer later.

#39

Just because someone misuses truth does not diminish the essence of truth. The truth is that scripture is not “plain”, but requires study, prayer, and even the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Jesus denounced the Pharisees for searching scripture all day but missing completely the one who wrote scripture.

I don’t see how encouraging people to walk in humility is prideful.

And have you considered the meaning of dogmatic?
A statement or opinion:
. characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles
. forcibly asserted as if authoritative and unchallengeable
. based on assumption rather than empirical observation
The expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were established facts.

And my friend, to my knowledge no one on this forum is making an appeal to lay aside Biblical truth for the sake of unity in the church. What dirtboy was encouraging was humility through the simple recognition that our interpretations of scripture could be absolutely wrong, and that others might have a better understanding than we do, or we could all be wrong.

#40

The act of telling people to walk in humility most definitely can be an act of pious [hypocritical and conspicuous] nature, but not necessarily so.