The Evangelical Universalist Forum

You worship the wrong Jesus and have a different gospel

I suppose any statement or act can be polluted by pride, even seeming acts of humility like prayer. I don’t think dirtboy evidenced that attitude in what he wrote.

Oxy, never mind. You have missed the point of my argument so much that it appears I can’t explain myself well enough. If you come away from this thinking that I don’t think doctrine is important and that “we can all have different truths” (which I have never maintained and has NOTHING to do with what I am saying), then I simply don’t know how to make it clearer to you. I’ll simply say this: I’m glad that it is Jesus who decides whether or not we are worshiping Him rather than many of the people who throw around the phrase “you worship a different Jesus than me”. I’m reminded of a great Emo Philips joke:
**
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.** :smiley:

:smiley:

Good good!

Because we don’t believe in endless punishment MacArthur says all this? We’ve got God’s character all wrong, that he seeks after his sheep until they are found. We have a wrong view of sin that God triumps over it. We have a wrong view of ourselves that our heart is in need of changing and God is just the one to do it. We have a wrong view of Christ’s sufficiency as Savior of the whole world. We have a wrong view of the breadth of His atoning sacrifice that was for all. And somehow a wrong view of faith, that God is able to draw all men. Ok. I guess we are all wrong. God doesn’t love unconditionally/keep searching us out, God loses to sin, we’re so bad not even God can save us, the atonement will be good for some, etc. :mrgreen: What he’s really saying is that since we disagree with his view of election we must be going to hell. :wink:

Amy,
That quote is actually from a commenter, not MacArthur himself, but he does say that those who don’t believe in eternal hell are at risk of going there.

Here’s what MacArthur wrote:

I’m not sure where he gets that from. Bell, as far as I can tell (not having read his book), does not deny the danger of hell, but sees Hell as a terrible reality that people need to be rescued from–not just in the next age, but even now. I’m not sure how he can be said to be mass producing sons of hell, when he’s preaching repentance from sin and faith in Christ for salvation. The people Jesus is calling “sons of hell” in Matt 23 are the scribes and Pharisees–the religious elite of the day, who knew “the word” inside and out, yet could not recognize The Word when He stood before them.

Sonia

My entire point was this: Those in the position of power often will accuse those who are actually right of being wrong to maintain the status quo. The truth is not what most people believe, what most people believe is what they have been taught to believe. Tradition is the place we like to go and hide when we have lost the argument.

I wasn’t comparing myself to Christ directly, but it makes sense that those who follow Him will experience the same types of rejection, yes? Besides which, as believers, we are referred to as His brothers, so we should be comparing ourselves to Him to some extent if we are truly following.

That is a post modern view in this post modern world-that somehow people of “power” sole intention is to dominate, exploit etc. and who exactly is in this position of power? How do you know the truth is not what most people believe and by people are you saying, Christians? We lost the argument?

There are Christians who say, the bible never condemned homosexuality but embraced it, that the apostle Paul was gay and they experienced rejection for their belief. Are they right as well because they have been rejected?

I remember when a certain man was rejected for trying to get rid of the purchase of indulgences, and other orthodox doctrines in his time.

Ah, so now we’re attaching labels, eh? Post modern view or not, this is a simple observation both from history and everyday modern life. Whether you call it power or authority or whatnot; those who have it tend to abuse it both intentionally and unintentionally. I’m not a relativist; I do believe in absolute truth. I’m simply saying that much of what’s passed off as truth is really just “conventional wisdom”.

Sorry, I threw in a quote there that speaks to my experience as well as that of many others I know. The quote is from Shakespeare Retold: A Midsummer Night’s Dream. “Tradition is the place we like to go and hide when we have lost the argument”. Meaning that tradition is used as the trump card (appeal to authority, etc.) when we don’t have anything better to appeal to.

I have found it to be often the case that people believe what they do simply because that’s what they have been taught, not because that’s what is true (or what scripture actually says).

Here’s a thought; Why don’t you try reading what I actually say rather than reading into it what you think I said? :wink: