Aug
If Isaiah 28:9-11 has nothing to do with the method of how to interpret scripture…why did the Apostle Paul make reference to this passage when he wrote about prophecy, edification and teaching in 1 Corinthians 14. (1Cor 14:21)?
Revival,
In cor I do not read Paul as stating here is a method of hermeneutic for the church.
I understand him to see that in the law it is written that people will speak in strange tounges and it will be a sign to them but they still will not listen. Hence his statment “So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but (AI)prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.”
His words “so then” means Isa is about signs - not about methodology of herm. He’s clarifying that tounges, according to Isa. would be a sign to the unbeliever but prophecy for the believer.
At least that’s how I’ve always read it but admittedly, I’m probably less studied on Isa than you. Can you explain how Paul is using Isa. as a method of hermeneutics?
Aug
Hi Gene
You’re funny (less studied on Isa than me…not true…lol)
Paul referenced Isa 28:11 (stammering lips and another tongue) because in the whole chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians he is explaining what praying in tongues does for the believer in regard to prophecy, edification and teaching. Paul states in 1Cor 14:6 “Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?” In other words, Paul is saying what does it profit you when I speak in tongues if I’m not sharing with you what speaking in tongues is doing for me. Paul is referencing how he gets his revelation of scripture, and where he gets his doctrine…by praying or speaking in tongues.
This is why he using the prophecy in Isa 28:11 as a reference as the method of hermeneutics. God bless.
I’m not convinced that he’s saying that at all. before they spoke in tounges Jesus opened the minds of the disciples so they could understand the scriptures. Would you say that they counld not interpret the scriptures prior to speaking in tounges?
Gene, whether you accept what I’m saying or not is between you and the Lord. Isa 28;9-11 is a prophesy being referenced by Paul in continuity with his teaching 1 Cor 14. In other words, Paul is saying all that he is teaching in 1 Cor 14 was prophesied by God in Isa 28:9-11.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not available until Jesus ordered the disciples to receive it in the book of Acts. Jesus basically did for them the same the Holy Spirit does for us as taught in 1 Cor 2 and 14. God bless.
You didn’t answer my question. Are you saying that before the day of pentecost, after Jesus opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures, they could not understand it? Just answer it.
A disply of unpalleled form here at EU that demonstrates exactly what everyone already knows about you…
You are a legend in your own mind and cannot be corrected because God has taught you all you need to know.
Congrats. You’ve learned nothing over the last year.
And just so you know, The lord and I both reject what you’re saying. LOL!
WE ARE ALL BROTHERS nailed this. I already tried to answer this one for you, but you didn’t seem to get it. Here let me quote Isaiah 28:9-13 (just two more verses that are in the CONTEXT of the passage).
**Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (quoting from the KJV)
**
Do you understand now why I quoted that one verse? God is showing how not to handle his word. In fact the main word which I follow when interpreting the scriptures is Psalm 119:160,
The sum of your word is truth
Sadly the KJV leaves out the word SUM, BROTHERS is right when he says that the KJV is near worthless.
To simply state matter-of-factly that people will be judged and then point to Revelation 20 does not help your case. I made it clear that judgment is for good, not for evil. Revelation 14 only says the smoke of their torment goes up forever. It does not mean they are tormented forever and ever. Consequently I believe the torment of Satan and the Beast and false prophet (the only ones who are said to be tormented forever and ever in Revelation 20) will last as long as Jesus reigns (which Revelation says in forever and ever). Meaning? Satan, the Beast, and the False prophet will one day be freed, because Paul says Christ must reign UNTIL all enemies are subject to him, then Jesus will be subject to God. This clearly shows that Christ’s reign ends, meaning forever and ever cannot mean ‘endless’.
As to my 7 other responses you never answered them 
Awakening,
Sadly the KJV leaves out the word SUM, BROTHERS is right when he says that the KJV is near worthless.
In fairness to the KJV, the Hebrew word is rosh, literally meaning “head.” Idiomatically, it could mean “from the beginning” as the KJV renders it or “the sum/totality” as modern translations render it. I agree, of course, that the KJV has its issues. The state of Hebrew/Greek studies and textual criticism has improved by leaps and bounds in the past four centuries. But I’m not sure I’d call it “near worthless.” It represents the best from its day and, generally speaking, it’s not an awful translation even today. To put it as the translators themselves did:
…the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession…containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God.
Cindy, if I had never encountered the doctrine of universal reconciliation, your post would have stopped me cold in my tracks and caused me to seriously consider it. Thank you for detailing it so methodically and thoroughly.
And, on an unrelated, albeit crucial, note–since we’re approaching that most delightfully Dickensian of days–pilgrim’s Alastair Sim/Scrooge avatar pretty much made my week–and my week has only just begun (which leads me to Karen Carpenter, all of a sudden)…
But back to the topic at hand…Please, carry on, all…
David
Is “Revival” the same person as “oxymoron”?
No, he was formerly “Born Again” and “Aaron37”
Sonia
i think Jesus openly did preach universal hope. He did not in any clear way debate eternal damnation, and He said He would literally “drag” all men unto Him once lifted up (as He was on the cross), and again as He ascended. Also, everything He said agreed with the OT, and the OT is peppered with future hope to come after judgement on earth…even for outright wicked nations.
see answer to point one that Jesus DID teach it.
the apostles also excelled in teaching future hope, though they did emphasise the importance of holy living now to avoid a period of judgement. Paul notably was emphatic about UR, but Peter and John also make clear references.
this is answered very well from several angles on the separate thread
what about the chronology of the same nations which were cast into the lake of fire being called into the new Jerusalem, whose gates are not shut, and invited to eat the fruit that would heal them? if this was the saints, they would ALREADY BE HEALED.
also, please see Jesus reference to the debtors gaol. “until every last penny is paid”.
the nature of the book of life is not clear. the symbollism has been debated on here before, so it’s worth searching for it on this forum to find how UR proponents deal with it. i am not 100% sure myself, so i’ll “give” you this point for now.
WHILE they are continuing to crucify…see again the thread on the unforgivable sin for an answer to this verse as well. verses 7-8 are shown to indicate that this cannot mean it is never possible, it just isn’t while they’re doing it. snitzelhoff made this point well.
no real issue there…the question is: how eternal is the judgement? the Bible never uses unambiguous language to define the time of refining.
agree to disagree. you’ve read the same verses we have, but come to a totally different conclusion. i would assume this is based on your preconceptions.
i, as many on here did, ditched my preconceptions and saw a different meaning…
how could they, while living in that way? the Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of the heart. if you’re living a selfish, arrogant, wasteful and toxic life, how can you be embodying the principles of God’s kingdom?
but so were we all, and so we still are, as we battle with our sin natures. yet God promises us restoration. can we be so arrogant to assume that current sinners won’t repent? if this verse spelled hopeless judgement for them, surely that hopeless judgement would apply to us too, as we were all once there?
what if the book of life is a reference to the living? then anyone who has been resurrected would be re-added to it. this “book of life” symbol is anything but clear. basing a doctrinal stance on it alone would be foolish, and using it to sustain a doctrinal stance is chancey. that is unless you’re claiming absolute knowledge and accuracy…which would make you guilty of arrogant, pharasaical pride. and we know what Jesus said to THEM. if you’re right about ECT…you would be well on the way there now.
what’s the mark of the beast? does anyone know? another vague symbol which would be foolish and chancey to use to prop up a doctrinal stance.
i’m sure i read a post from you saying debating was evil and that you weren’t going to do it anymore…oddly, i can see your point, as without love, discussions can go badly wrong.
but if you’ve changed your mind and wish to re-engage, fair enough.
but i personally feel that 9 out of 11 of your reasons are easily answerable, and i’m sure those with a bit more knowledge of Revelations will be able to answer the remaining two (if they haven’t already…not read the thread).
with all due respect, i believe ECT is a house of cards that contradicts the meta-narrative of the Bible as well as many clear texts. i believe it uses poor translations of ambiguous words at best.
those are two reasons i am not a proponent of the heresy of ECT.
sorry, but your reply isn’t as convincing as what you’re replying to…
Paidon, part of the path to UR for me was the fact that punishment forever made no sense, given that all throughout the Bible God punishes and threatens punishment in order to correct and restore. why should the last judgement be any different? that was a big flaw in the ECT argument that i saw before i even knew i was allowed to question ECT!
Lamentations 3:31-33. the whole chapter is about judgements that are not forever. it is a powerful look into the mind of God who does not want to punish but restore!
also:
Psalm 30 contains a very potent “proof text” which again gives us a glimpse into the mind of Sentient, Omnipotent Love.
You think or can you show me in scripture where he openly preached universal hope? If you are referencing John 12:32 I have already addressed it with Michael Thompson in a earlier post.
Again, can you show me scripture support without taking it out of context the apostles teaching future hope in UR?
Can you provide scripture references please.
Something had to happen to get our names written in the book of life. Who gives life? Jesus. Is it safe to assume before accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receiving life from him you don’t have it? Of course. (Eph 2:1;5)
In the final judgment recorded in Rev 20:11-15, books (plural) are open and humankind are judged by our works and then another book is opened( book of life) to see if your name is written in it. If your name is found recorded you spend eternity with God…if it is not you don’t and are thrown into the lake of fire. The book of life determines our eternal destiny. This is not my preconceptions. Read it for yourself. This judgment is final …for there are no other judgments recorded after this.
The dead small and great are resurrected to stand before the throne of God at the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. This means every human that ever lived is at this final judgment.
Its a mark taken on the hand or the forehead to be able to buy or sell anything.(Rev 13:17) Once you take this mark the Bible is very clear of what happens to you in Rev 14:9-11.
I’m convinced if you force the EU or UR to keep scripture in context there is zero support for it, and a lot of support against it. God bless.
Funny. I’d say the same thing about eternal torment. If you force the eternal-torment-ist to keep Scripture in context, to pay attention to little inconvenient details like authorial intent and historical context and original language considerations, the support for it all seems to vanish pretty quickly.
Man, that was annoying back when I believed in it!
Hi snitzelhoff
I have a challenge for you. I would like you to give me the one scripture reference that you think is the best support of UR and we will put it back in its setting of the chapter and examine line by line and precept upon precept what the subject of the chapter and book really are. Fair enough?
But that isn’t what you’ve done with this thread. You’ve ripped more than a dozen passages out of contexts and thrown them out as proof-texts in that “shotgun” style you copy-pasted about earlier. Tell you what–you take your own challenge, and then I’ll take it, too. 
Ok, you first. If you want to start a new post on this that would be Ok, too.