your reasoning is unconvincing regarding that verse. this is one that does not require huge amounts of exegesis around it…it is clearly intended and clearly stated. all simply means all.
how many times must these verses be listed in this forum? i’m not going to pander to this. it’s shocking that you’d ask AGAIN for what are obvious and clear proof texts well documented. if you don’t agree with them, then your disagreement is with the Bible, not us.
fine, i’ll give you one: bible.cc/matthew/18-14.htm
oh wow, and it’s JESUS talking…hmm…no i guess you’re right. God doesn’t get His way, He’s not able to do what He wills…and Jesus must’ve been exagerating in this passage. even the context supports it. the millstone round the neck being better than the punishment God will meet out does not imply that this punishment is eternal.
oh sorry, that was JEsus talking, and you wanted something from the apostles.
right:
1 Cor 3:15.
also proof of a sort of post mortem correction/judgement.
read the chapters in question. it’s not hard to find in Revelations. keep reading on from where they’re cast into the LoF.
like i said, it’s shakey ground to build a doctrine on. this is a symbol and claiming absolute knowledge on it is…just wrong.
you’re bound to be incorrect, just as i would be if i claimed to know all.
that doesn’t mean the penalty of the judgement is permanent. it simply means no more judgements are NEEDED.
not a bad answer, at last. like i say, though, this isn’t my area of expertise, so i will let others argue this point.
for me, this isn’t enough to scupper the obvious restorative thrust of the entire Bible.
again, not my area of expertise, but you have not allowed for this simply to be symbollic (ie noting the difficulty for Christians to trade or live properly in some countries even today with anti-Christian regimes in place). again…something that is open to interpretation and application in a variety of ways is not something upon which to base a doctrine. this does not scupper the entirely restorative message of the entire Bible.
funny. 29 years of study on my own convinced me eventually that ECT is a blasphemous and slanderous idea about God’s character that made no logical sense and did not fit in with the Bible or with what the Spirit was showing me. so who’s right?
how about we judge by fruit…does ECT bring good fruit or scared, smug, self-righteous fruit? does EU or UR breed bad fruit, or does it spawn confident, loving people that want to see even the devil restored?
what’s more Godly? love your enemies? pray for those that persecute you? so that you can be sons of your Father? Matthew 4:43-45
For UR to be true there must be people who are not found recorded in the book of life after the final judgment being re-judged and being found in the book of life to be able to enter in the New Jerusalem and the New Earth. God will follow the same standard as established in Rev 20:11-15 otherwise that would show favoritism. The penalty of the judgment in Rev 20:11-15 is final unless you can show scripture support of people being added to the book of life while being judged again before the throne of God. There is no way around this…you have already conceded there is no more judgments…therefore if you can’t prove this your other points are moot. To my knowledge…I find zero support of this happening, and a lot of support against it!
you’ve conveniently avoided all my answers and latched unto my admitted “weak points”
very telling.
what you’re asking for is totally unnecessary if we’re right as it would go without saying.
the punishment is not permanent, so why would any further clarification be needed?
If it is not permanent then show me in scripture after Rev 20:11-15 when this is reversed. Whether you acknowledge it or not UR cannot stand if you can’t prove this. God bless.
You didn’t answer my question. Are you saying that before the day of pentecost, after Jesus opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures, they could not understand it?
Revival, am I understanding you right. Are you saying in order to interpret the scriptures you must speak in tounges?
If the disciples were capable of understanding it fully why did Jesus have to open their minds?
God is saying through the Apostle Paul in 1Cor 14 that if you don’t pray in tongues you will not receive the benefits that only praying in tongues can give.
It doesn’t matter, I speak in tongues. So your theory is moot because if I speak in tongues and you speak in tongues, yet both have different understandings of what is the Truth, then your theory is bunk.
Aaron,
So now you’re saying that they did understand scriptures but not fully? So what Jesus did was open their minds so they could understand SOME of the scriptures, but what they really needed was a dose of tounges?
Weak Aaron. You demand that people quote scripture in context but NO WHERE in Cor 14 does paul equate speaking in tounges with hermeneutics.
Seriously, go to your own, like Roger Olson - he’s pentecostal - and ask him if you’re right about that. Perhaps you are but it Roger will at least be able to show me how so. Currently I’m not even certain that Isa is referring to hermeneutics.
And I have no reason to believe that the disciples could not understand the scriptures before they spoke in tounges AND I have every reason to believe they could understand the scriptures before they spoke in tounges.
And as SOTW pointed out, he does too and he’s a Universalist. LOL!
Craig, it does matter. Its not the ability to be able to speak or pray in tongues but how often and how long you actually pray in tongues daily. Paul said I pray in tongues more than all. I’m talking praying consistently in tongues for hours a day everyday. Do you do this?
Everything Jesus taught was completely consistent with UR, and much of what Jesus taught (both in word and in deed) are principles that are fundamental to UR.
Jesus taught that all people would be drawn to himself (John 12:32). The “drawing” of which Christ speaks should be understood in light of what he said in John 6:44. There, being “drawn” likely refers to God’s work in making people receptive to the truth.
Even if Jesus isn’t recorded in the Gospels as having fully revealed the truth of UR to people during his earthly ministry, we can infer that he did fully reveal the truth to his apostle, Paul, at some point (i.e., after his resurrection and ascension), because this was Paul’s explicit teaching.
When do you think the doctrine of ECT (eternal/endless conscious torment) was first revealed by God?
What John speaks of in Rev 20:11-15 would only be problematic for the believer in UR if the “dead” being judged are immortal human beings and the judgment is endless in duration. But I see no reason to believe that this particular judgment - whether it’s thought to be past or future - takes place sometime after the “last enemy” has been abolished, after Christ has delivered the kingdom to God, and after God has become “all in all” (1 Cor 15:24-28). I don’t think there’s any evidence from the immediate or larger context that this judgment (whether it’s thought to be past of future) takes place somewhere other than in this temporal world, during this mortal existence. This judgment no more concerns human beings in another state of existence than the judgment which God brought upon Sodom and Gomorrah when he rained down fire and brimstone from heaven and turned the cities to ashes (2 Pet 2:6). It’s a temporal judgment: The Hell on Earth View - a subset of UR
Where is your evidence that being written in the book of life has anything to do with where a person will “spend eternity?” You seem to be simply assuming this to be true without justification, and reading this idea into the text. But rather than simply assuming it to be so, what you should instead be trying to argue is that the book of life does, in fact, concern our final destiny. If (as I believe) the BOL is simply the book in which the names of those who were/are to inherit the Messianic kingdom are recorded and thus does not have anything to do with what is to take place after Christ has ceased to reign and has delivered the kingdom to God, then your point is moot.
First, the author’s warning can be understood in a similar sense as Jesus’ words in Mark 10:24-25, where Jesus is using hyperbole to express how difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the Messianic kingdom. But as Christ goes on to say, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God” (v. 27). Second, the author of Hebrews is writing to Jewish Christians, and is talking about the difficulty of Jewish Christian apostates repenting before God brought judgment upon their nation. He has in view the day of judgment that these believers could see “drawing near” (Heb 10:25), when the Lord was going to judge his people, Israel (v. 30). You’re reading ECT into the text here.
Even if this “death” is understood as a literal death, where are we told that the judgment is one in which some people will be sentenced to ECT? You’re reading this into the text.
Where are we told that this judgment “determines our eternal destiny?” You have provided zero evidence for this. I see no good reason why anyone should believe that this judgment takes place after all people have been drawn to Christ (John 12:32), made alive in Christ (1 Cor 15:21-22; cf. vv. 48-49), united in Christ (Eph 1:10), reconciled to God (Col 1:20), subjected to Christ (Phil 2:10-11), justified/made righteous by Christ (Rom 5:18-19) and have obtained the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Rom 8:21). To assert that this judgment extends beyond the time when God becomes “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28) is (to me at least) like asserting that the judgment referred to in Genesis 6 or Jeremiah 19 extends beyond this time as well.
When Paul speaks of the “kingdom of God” and the “kingdom of God’s Son” in these verses (cf. Col 1:13) he’s referring to the Messianic kingdom (see Dan 2:44 and 7:13-14). The Messianic kingdom is called “the kingdom of God” or “the kingdom of heaven” because (in accordance with Daniel’s prophecy) it is a kingdom set up by “the God of heaven.” The apostle Peter referred to the Messianic kingdom as “the age-abiding kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet 1:11, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). And in 1 Cor 15:24-28 (cf. Ps. 110:1) it is revealed by Paul that Christ’s reign is not of endless duration. Rather, Christ is going to reign “until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” The word “until” indicates that the placing of Christ’s enemies under his feet is the goal of his reign; when this goal is reached, there will no longer be any need for Christ to continue reigning. After Christ has subjected all people to himself he will then deliver the kingdom back to the one from whom he originally received it (1 Cor 15:24; cf. Dan 7:13-14). Paul calls the time when Christ delivers the kingdom back to God “the end” - i.e., the consummation of the Messianic reign, when Christ fully accomplishes the redemptive purpose for which God gave him “all authority in heaven and on earth.” The fact that many in Paul’s day were not going to inherit the “kingdom of God” (i.e., the Messianic kingdom) does not mean they were doomed for “all eternity,” because the blessing Paul has in view does not pertain to anyone’s “eternal destiny.”
This would only be problematic for those who believe that being blotted out of the book of life has eternal implications (and even then, there are ways of understanding this that are consistent with UR). But since I don’t believe Scripture teaches this, I consider it a moot point.
The judgment suffered by those who worship the beast and take his mark is not ECT. Rather, it’s a temporal judgment: Revelation 14:9-11
If you think you’ve chosen your “eternal destination” then I have some bad news for you (or at least, it’s bad news for one’s pride and self-righteousness): the only human being who chooses your “eternal destination” is Jesus Christ. It is Jesus whom God made Lord of all and who has been given charge of your “eternal destiny” - not you. To believe that God has left or will leave your will or anyone else’s will outside of Jesus’ control is, I think, to directly contradict Heb 2:9, where we are told that everything is going to be put in subjection to Christ, and that God left nothing outside of Jesus’ control. One day, every desire and will that is inconsistent with God’s purpose to become “all in all” will be abolished, and all people will be subjected to Christ. While you may not yet like the idea of having to share heaven with all the people who weren’t wise and virtuous enough to make the right decision before they died (like you did ), I’m confident that you’ll see things differently one day. And then we can rejoice together.
Hello Aaron, I understand John 12:32 to be saying that the Jews were relying upon the law for their salvation and Jesus was telling them that relying on Him and not the law will draw all men to salvation (not just the Jews by the law anymore). Jesus, and not the law and ordinances will draw all men to salvation.
Why would Jesus be secretive about a important part of the redemption of man(UR) in his teachings in the gospels? Why would Jesus explicitly teach UR to Paul and not the other apostles? Would not this contradict 2 Peter 1:20?
Indeed, Aaron. Indeed. God is a Spirit. Man is a spirit. God is eternal. Man is eternal. How? because God made man in his image and likeness. The word ‘image’ comes from the Hebrew word ‘tselem’ and it means resemblence or representative figure. The word for ‘likeness’ comes from the Hebrew word ‘d muth’ and it means similtude, model or shape, pattern. In plain talk, this means that God desired man to look like, act like, and live like Himself. A non-deified replica of himself! Praise God!
Something had to happen to get our names written in the book of life. Who gives life? Jesus. Is it safe to assume before accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and receiving life from him you don’t have it? Of course. (Eph 2:1;5)
Books (plural) are open those you will be judged by your works and the book of life was opened…why? because this book determines your eternal destiny. If your name is found recorded you spend eternity with God…If your name is not found recorded you are thrown into the lake of fire and you are separated from God for eternity.
This death is a literal physical death. You go to either hell or heaven after you die before the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. at this judgment you are judged for your works and to see if you are written in the book of life (your eternal destiny).
It is very problematic considering this determines whether you enter the New Jerusalem and the New Earth or are thrown into the lake of fire at final judgment. God does not consider this a moot point.
So in other words, all men will ultimately rely on Jesus and thus be drawn to salvation. Gotcha. You must actually be a universalist playing “devil’s advocate” here! For as you know, the law never drew “all (or even some) men to salvation.” Rather, “the law came in to increase the trespass” (Rom 5:20). So I’m glad Jesus is going to actually do what the law was never intended by God to do (i.e., draw all men to salvation)!
“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous” (Rom 5:18-19).
Man…the depressing idea that Christ (who not only has all authority in heaven and on earth but also loves us all more than we can imagine) is either unable or unwilling to save everyone for whom he died just doesn’t hold a candle to the glorious truth of which Paul’s speaking here. Believe the good news, Aaron.
Why would Jesus be as secretive as he was during his public ministry concerning his identity as the Messiah? Why would Jesus’ public teaching consist mostly of parables rather than of statements that would make the truth obvious to everyone? When you answer these questions, perhaps you’ll have a better idea of how a believer in UR could possibly answer your question.
Also, you seem to have overlooked the question I asked you. If you could answer it in your next response, I’d appreciate it. Again, the question is, “When do you think the doctrine of ECT was first revealed by God?”
And here’s a follow-up question: Why do you think that Paul didn’t warn his Gentile readers of the “hell” (i.e., “Gehenna” or Hinnom Valley) that Jesus warned his Jewish listeners of several times during his ministry?
Actually, I didn’t say Christ didn’t teach it to the other apostles. Please read my response again, but this time without reading into it what’s not there.
How would it contradict 2 Peter 1:20?
Human beings are mortal, and are not said to become immortal until they have been made alive in Christ and death has been abolished (see 1 Cor 15, whole chapter). Do you agree or disagree with this? Unless Rev 20:11-15 refers to a judgment that takes place or continues after all who die in Adam have been made alive in Christ, it is in no way problematic for UR. And even if this judgment does take place after all who die in Adam have been made alive in Christ, you still haven’t shown that this judgment is endless in duration for any of God’s image-bearers. The fact that John doesn’t explicitly reveal in these closing chapters what is to happen to those thrown into the lake of fire in no way means that he thought this was their “final state.” This seems to be your assumption, however. But to me, that’s like arguing that the judgments described in Isaiah 34:8-17, Jeremiah 19 or Ezekiel 22:17-22 refer to the “eternal destiny” of people, just because we aren’t explicitly told otherwise in the immediate contexts.
I agree that Jesus “gives life,” and of course it’s safe to assume that we don’t have the “life” that comes by believing on Jesus before we actually believe on him. But the life that he gives to those who believe on him as Lord and Savior of all is not the same exact blessing that he will ultimately give to all who are dying in Adam, or who have already died in Adam. The former blessing is received and enjoyed by mortals who believe on Christ, while the latter will be bestowed on all people both dead and living, irrespective of whether or not one was “just” or “unjust.” As Paul says, “…we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe” (1 Tim 4:10).
According to Hebrews 11:1, faith is “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Faith can only be exercised - and is thus only conditional to our salvation - while the things that are “hoped for” (such as our being raised immortal by Christ - Acts 24:15; Rom. 8:20-25; 1 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Jn. 3:2-3) have not yet been realized. But when Christ returns to raise the dead and take us to heaven (Acts 1:11; John 14:1-3; 1 Thess 4:13-18) the faith by which we presently “walk” will be replaced by sight (2 Cor 5:6-8). When faith has been replaced by sight, it will no longer be that on which salvation will depend. That is, when we have been saved by Jesus from everything from which we need to be saved (and thus made fit for heaven), “faith” (as defined in Heb 11:1) will no longer be necessary or possible. While at present “we see in a mirror dimly” and “know in part,” Paul tells us that we will one day see “face to face” and “shall know fully,” even as we “have been fully known” (1 Cor 13:12).
Christ differentiates the “life” that comes by faith from the blessing of being raised up by him on the “last day” in John 6:40. In contrast to “everlasting life” (or more accurately, the “life of the age”) which can only be enjoyed by believers (and which necessarily excludes not only those who have made an “informed decision” to reject Christ, but also infants/young children, many mentally disabled people, and every person throughout history who has lived and died without having ever heard about Christ), being raised up by Christ on the last day is a blessing that embraces all people: “This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day” (John 6:39). Elsewhere we learn that all people have been given to Christ by God (John 3:35; 13:3; Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22), that Christ is “the firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15) and thus the inheritor of “all things” (Heb 1:2 cf. Psalm 2:8), and that Christ is “Lord” (i.e., he has absolute ownership rights) of all people, both dead and living (Acts 10:36; Rom 14:9; 1 Cor. 11:3). It is further revealed by Paul that all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (1 Cor. 15:22; Acts 24:15) and will thus bear Christ’s heavenly image (1 Cor. 15:42-49). If anyone dying in Adam is not going to be raised up by Christ on the last day, then it will mean that they have been “lost” by him. But since all are to be made alive in Christ on the last day, it necessarily follows that none will be lost by him.
Believe the good news, Aaron. The ending to the story of redemptive history is not a tragedy for most or any. It is much, much better than you think it will be. God will make sure of it.
Again, I must ask you: where do you see it revealed that our being written in the book of life has anything to do with where we will “spend eternity,” or that it “determines our eternal destiny?” What passages do you see as supporting your view that having one’s name written in the BOL means that one will be finally saved, while not having one’s name written in the BOL means that one will be finally and irreversibly lost? You have so far provided zero evidence for this.
Why do you think having your name recorded in the BOL means you get to “spend eternity with God?” Why do you think not having your name recorded in the BOL means that you’ll be “separated from God for eternity?” Where do you think Scripture teaches this?
For the sake of argument, I’m fine discussing this verse on the assumption that the “literal physical death” of all people is in view (I’ve argued for this interpretation myself elsewhere on this forum, although I’ve since become more inclined to view the death in view as a figurative death that typified the death of Christ). But like I said, even if this “death” is understood as a literal death, where are we told that the judgment following it is one in which some people will be sentenced to ECT? Simply referring to Rev 20:11-15 does not prove this, because not even you think that the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 takes place for everyone immediately following their death. And I deny that this passage speaks of a “final judgment” for every unbeliever who has ever lived, or that it has anything to do with anyone’s “eternal destiny.”
Again, you’re assuming things that you haven’t even yet attempted to prove - namely, that the judgment spoken of in Rev 20:11-15 involves every unbelieving person who has ever lived, and that the judgment is to result in an endless and irreversible state. You’re assuming that because John doesn’t explicitly say in this passage that those thrown into the “lake of fire” will be saved, that this is their “eternal destiny.” But again, that’s like arguing that the judgments described in Isaiah 34:8-17, Jeremiah 19 or Ezekiel 22:17-22 refer to the “eternal destiny” of people, just because we aren’t explicitly told otherwise in the immediate contexts.
You also seem to be assuming that what John is describing when he speaks of the new Jerusalem and the new heaven and new earth is an eternal, permanent state of existence beyond this mortal life. But I don’t think the new heaven and new earth refers to our “eternal destiny” (although I do think it refers to the final dispensation of redemptive history which will immediately precede the final, “eternal” state in which mankind will exist after Christ raises the dead and changes the living, as described in 1 Cor 15 and elsewhere).
Jesus was not secretive about his identity as Messiah. John 4:25-26 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
Jesus spoke in parables because the people who he spoke to had a sin nature and was not capable of understanding the fullness of the spiritual truth. Jesus gave natural analogies to teach a spiritual truth. I answered them now answer mine.
The doctrine of ECT was first revealed when God created the lake of fire for the devil and his fallen angels.
The bible also doesn’t reveal Paul going to the bathroom but we both know he did. The Bible says that there were a lot of miracles and things Jesus did in his ministry that was not recorded.
No, I disagree. Our natural bodies are mortal but our spirits and souls are immortal whether we are born again with life of God or not. Our bodies receive immortality at the completion of our redemption. Rom 8:23; 1 Cor 15:52-54.
We are created in God’s image and likeness. We are created a non-deified replica of God.
firstly sorry for the delay , I have highlighted part of your response for a valid reason , one in which I asked the question to begin with , it certainly appears that you are putting the emphasis upon what ‘‘you’’ do or believe , isn’t salvation all of GOD
, it certainly appears that you are putting the emphasis upon what ‘‘you’’ do or believe , isn’t salvation all of GOD 