The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

#261

Idolize :laughing: I am banned from CARM & i’m quite sure TomL wouldn’t come to post here. Why doesn’t davo go there to save his compadres & put his Preterist notions to a real test up against a guy that knows the Scriptures & Preterism very well?

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#262

If I may ask, why were you banned from CARM? They do take a Calvinist position. And are HOSTILE to any form of Universalism. Even one that views hell as temporary. Where if I ever became a convince universalist…and not just a hopeful one…is the position I would take. I don’t see the purpose, of going on a site - that’s openly hostile, to any type of universalism. However, on a neutral site, that’s at least open to hearing both positions - it would be an interesting idea. :slight_smile:

I tend to ask questions like this. Is a person still trying to have, a relationship with Christ? Are they still trying to live a moral life? Are they trying to follow the gospel, and helping the poor and needy? Do they still repent of any “apparent” wrong and ask for forgiveness? Etc.? Or do they think that Christ has done everything? And there’s nothing to be done - on their part?

In the end, it’s NOT who has the most brilliant mind. Whether that’s Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Martin Luther, etc. It’s how we attempt to implement, what the Gospels and Christ - are telling us. Take something and run with it.

For me:

It’s Orthodoxy in communication with Rome, incorporating some elements - into the Anglican tradition.
Embracing some contemplation and healing elements, of the Wisdom Tradition. That finds its epitome in Christ.

It’s NOT always the logicians, that win the art of persuasion - but the marketers. As Steve Roller said today - in his newsletter:

I leave everyone with a cartoon or two, from sunilbali.com/2018/03/almost-as-big-as-beyonce/

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#263

Randy:

Then why are you always giving gotquestions a soapbox on this forum?

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#264

You’re free to make this fellow’s supposedly brilliant arguments right here on this forum.

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#265

They have many answers, to a wide variety - of Biblical and theological questions. Which is a good starting point - for discussions? Or defining some term, that needs defining.

Imagine we were a philosophy site, devoted to Plato. And we were talking about justice. Does that mean we SHOULD NOT seek input, from philosophers versed in Aristotle, Kant, etc? Or are you INSISTING, that the ONLY folks having answers, to topics raised here - are universalists?

And since this site is run, in an ACADEMIC style. Calvinists have opinions to express - which I share. And so do Eastern Orthodox - which I ALSO share.

I even share the opinions, of zombie apocalypse believers. - on occasion. :slight_smile:

Imagine if we were on Windows, and only had ONE browser.

I like Opera, for its free VPN and US servers.
I like Google Chrome for downloading.
I like Firefox, for playing PCH entries and games (with the appropriate Anti-AD, Anti-Pop-up, and Anti-Tracker plug-ins).
I like Mircosoft Edge, for playing TV show episodes (as it has no plug-ins installed, that I need to disable).

But I can be more FORTHCOMING…, on what the zombie apocalypse believers and Peter Popoff, has to say… If that’s your cup of tea… :wink:

But first, you must do your homework. By watching The Walking Dead (on tonight, folks), Fear The Walking Dead and the Peter Popoff infomercials. :laughing:

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#266

For what, in the eyes of the beholder, was considered a rules violation. Alleged misbehaviour of some sort, as i recall, e.g. calling Calvinism by a certain name which is not to be named on this forum. :smiley:

ChristianForums.Com officially places universalism in the heterodox category, but allows it to be discussed on one of their many forums, though one is not allowed to “promote” it even there, as i recently found out when being banned for a month. AFAIK the subject was & is still not allowed to be discussed on CARM. OTOH the Christianity forum at CityData forums allows great freedom in discussing the topic of universalism.

These are all good questions. Perhaps the Pantelists & Full Preterists of this forum would care to answer them & explain how (and why) their views differ from those of orthodox Christianity. According to these heresies all prophecies of the Scriptures have already been fulfilled & Scripture applied to the ancients. Several times i’ve asked them, if the Scriptures applied to the ancients, or only to them, on what basis do they decide how they should live today. I received no answers. Other questions we might ask are:

  1. Is the Christ of Pantelism the Christ of the Scriptures or of Orthodox Christianity?
  2. What is the Gospel, if any, for today according to Pantelism?
  3. In Pantelism should we preach a gospel today? If so, what is it? That all are saved already, as one self proclaimed Pantelist recently posted here? What are the practical consequences of such a belief? Does it negate evangelism?
  4. Does Pantelism deny the physical resurrection of the body?
  5. Does Pantelism state that physical death will never be abolished?
  6. Does Pantelism believe the gifts of the Spirit still operate today & should be sought for?
  7. Does Pantelism think there is after death punishment or do even the most monstrous sinners go straight to heaven at the moment of death? What are the practical consequences of such a view?
  8. What, if any, is the difference between Pantelism & Full Preterism?

“Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. Full preterism takes an extreme view that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled in one way or another. Partial preterists take a more moderate approach, and many partial preterists consider full preterists to be guilty of heresy.” gotquestions.org/partial-preterism.html

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#267

That’s one reason, I like the Calvinist site - Got Questions - a lot. In their eyes, there is no such thing - as a dumb question. And they attempt to answer, any and all questions - no matter how silly or absurd. Sure, they will give an answer - through the lens of Calvinist theology. And I’m more in harmony, with Eastern Orthodox theology. But I admire their attempt, to answer any and all - theological and Biblical questions. But I have also shared links, from the patheos.com - Evangelical and Catholic newsletters. As well as Eastern Orthodox sites.

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#268

Then TomL won’t be here to refute the imaginative twisting of the Scriptures in the Pantelist responses.

CARM would also offer Davo a much larger audience to see his views.

Davo is free to go to CARM, is he not? I’ve seen his posts on other forums besides this one BTW, though none where his views were seriously challenged as they would be on CARM. Isn’t it time he put them to a - real - test? To prove all things:

New American Standard Bible
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

King James Bible
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Berean Study Bible
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. 3 Beloved, although I made every effort to write you about the salvation we share, I felt it necessary to write and urge you to contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ

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#269

Origen:

If you know that pantellism is wrong then you should be able to explain why. Why do you need “TomL” to fight your battles for you?

Before I said you seem obsessed with soteriology. That might have been incorrect; you’re obsessed with davo. :laughing:

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#270

For those interested… this video presentation HERE is the direction the likes of pantelism is tracking — beyond one-dimensional simplistic questions, exploring rather the 3D concepts of inclusion and grace.

qaz… you might find this quite informative.

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#271

Is that like davo’s obsessions with Pantelism & Paidon?

From everything i see & know Pantelism is error, but TomL seems to be much more informed on the topic & has already done the legwork. Give me a few months & i may be where he is at now. I never even heard of Pantelism till recently, while davo has had his own website about it for years, has been posting on various forums re the topic since at least about 15 years ago, & believing in it for who knows how long. So are you suggesting a novice should engage in “battle” with an expert?

And why would davo want to remain lurking in the shadows & debate a lessor opponent? BTW, he hasn’t even responded to several of my posts here on the topic, as i already mentioned earlier. Furthermore, in my mind, it is still to be determined how dangerous of a heresy Pantelism & Full Preterism are & therefore how much (or if) i am interested in “battling” them. If davo would answer the questions posed, it might help in that regard. Non answers to simple queries tend to raise & confirm suspicions.

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Two Swords are Enough
#272

I would ENCOURAGE Davo and others, embracing “non-orthodox” positions here…To answer any and all questions, in a straightforward manner. Like folks do, at the Calvinist site - Got Questions.

Much of my background, has been in academia. And I have taken philosophy, theology and literature courses - in the past. I find it interesting, where folks present what I call “non-orthodox” positions. Just as I find it interesting, when lecturers at the Theosophical Society - present non-orthodox positions. It’s not that I will jump off the orthodox bandwagon and come on board. But I’m a bit more open-minded - on hearing them.

Now if a “die-hart” Theosophicist, took a position on Christianity - it would be an esoteric one. Which I would pose a hypothetical question. I’m reading a book, found on Amazon entitled Kinding the Native Spirit: Sacred Practices for Everyday Life. Now the book talks about “Shape Shifting” and “Astral Travel”. Which I believe all these things, were possible by Adam and Eve - before the fall. Now if they are REAL and IF I could DO THEM…Is this PERMISSIBLE, by an ORTHODOX Christian? What about a “non-Orthodox” Christian, taking a forum position here?

Folks here might think it “strange”, when I talk about the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse :laughing:

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#273

Randy said:

Thanks Randy, how are those embracing ‘non orthodox’ positions not answering questions… Sharpen your pencil pal. :laughing:

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#274

Yeah… like maybe folk can start at the beginning of this thread i.e., page 1 and ACTUALLY read the answers given all the way through. :sunglasses:

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#275

Full Preterism/Pantelism Refuted:

“The folly of full Preterism”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … -preterism

Full Preterism “misdefining resurrection”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … surrection

“Mishandling the sleep -awake metaphor”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … e-metaphor

“Misdefining the rapture”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … he-rapture

“Full Preterism robs Christ”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … obs-christ

“The Lesser Christ of Full Preterism”:
forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/relig … -preterism

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#276

[size=150]oh dear!![/size]

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#277

This was posted in another thread & my response unanswered:

We are all saved? Saved from what?

Sin, disease, death, pain, guilt, sorrows, torments, unbelief, mental illness, hatred of God, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, serial killing, corruption, war, stubbornness?

Scripture makes it clear that salvation is conditional on faith (Rom. 10:9-10,13; Acts 2:38; 11:14; 16:31; Mk.16:16; Jn.3:18; etc).

Isa.45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24 "They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame

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#278

From a Godless eternity.

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Pantelism, universalism & postmortem punishment
#279

How does this fit in with your view of Revelation:

What Scripture gives you the idea that the torments of the “High priest and Co.” have ended & they are “duly reconciled” to God:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev.20:10, KJV)

Rev.20:10 reveals the devil (whom you equate with the “High priest and Co.”) is cast into the lake of fire. Wouldn’t that kill a mortal man like the High Priest? Then, after his death, he is tormented in the lake of fire, which would be after death punishment. This continues EIS the “ages of the ages”, or, since you don’t seem to like literal translations & interpretations, i take it your preference is KJV “for ever and ever”. IOW ECT.

BTW, the contextual references to Satan & the devil don’t seem to be speaking of a human “High Priest”:

Rev.20:2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Rev. 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,

Unless you think, like some Pantelists, apparently, that the millennium (1000 years) lasted only about 40 years (c. 30-70 A.D.), which comes about 960 years short of a full enchilada.

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#280

The pantelist position is that the ‘lake of fire’ is the same as Jesus’ “gehenna” — something even Paidion agrees with. The pantelist view goes one step further understanding Jesus’ “gehenna” to be in fact a reference to the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. So… whatever the identity of the devil/beast/false prophet, IF they be human figures as I intimate in that quote above then their demise in Jerusalem’s fall, i.e., their death, then beyond that they shall be reconciled, for… “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” I’m inclined to believe Paul’s words here, but that’s me.

IF the devil be a literal spirit being then destruction would be in order, i.e., cessation of existence. The new covenant world about to come in its fullness was NOT in any way shape or form to be under any spirit subjection… at least NOT according to the writer of Hebrews…

<μέλλω> mellō = about to

It is indeed the pantelist position that John’s 1000yrs reflects the coverage of that 40yr period and is duly understood as “figurative language” as reflected in Paidion’s words here, to which again I agree…

"]Davo, the book of Revelation consists of a vision that someone named “John” experienced. It is full of figurative language and there are hundreds of different interpretations.
Along these very lines both futurist position of Amillennialism and Postmillennialism likewise agree with the “figurative language” interpretation.

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URist Preterist & Pantelist response to anti UR "proof texts"