70 AD- calling you Davo

[LLC]

Actually NO, I don’t think you are getting it. The OC encapsulated in the Law was not Israel’s doing but God’s, but by Israel’s hand the law was weakened (Rom 8:3) through disobedience and so its demise ensured; not due to the law AND commandment being bad (Rom 7:12) but that it could never bring righteousness. The TWO covenants symbolised in Sarah/Isaac and Hagar/Ishmael were of GOD, not man… how you can deny this staggers me. One however ultimately wrought death/condemnation (2Cor 3:7, 9) by the nature of it being law, and thus their faithless inability to live up to it; but the other breathed LIFE — that’s the contrast.

Well, I suppose that leaves us both staggered because it plainly says all throughout the Bible that this other covenant was NOT from God, it was the works of MAN.
1 Corinthians 10:3 tells us “Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the SAME SPIRITUAL FOOD( the bread of heaven) and all drank the SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.”

This means that those coming out of Egypt received the SAME spiritual teachings as that which Jesus taught, the SAME word. They were given the WAY OF LIFE. However, some turned away and followed their own way as it says, Romans 1:25 “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served CREATED things rather than the Creator.”
Psalm 106:20 “They made a calf in Horeb and worshipped a molten image. Thus they exchanged THEIR GLORY for the image of an ox that eats grass. They forgot God their Savoir.”
Deut. 32: 18" Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful and have forgotten the God that fathered you."
The list of verses go on and on. I don’t see how you can miss it.
Isaiah 1:10-17 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or lambs or goats.Vs. 13 incense is an abomination to Me, the new moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies. Your new moons and appointed feasts Mt soul hates…Cease to do evil and learn to do good, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow…”
ALL the books of the prophets say the SAME thing. The books of the New Testament say this as well. They were following man made doctrines(Mark7:7, Matt.15:9,Col 2:22, Titus 4:4 Romans 1:21-23 etc. etc. etc.

[Origen]

In the sheep and the goats parable Jesus says "eternal punishment

".

Let me share this about “eternal” “punishment”:

Hermano

"]
~Is hell a never-ending torture chamber, as commonly believed, or limited in time, and for corrective purposes? Recall: “Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:8). Reconsider Matthew 25:46, regarding the fate of the damned and of the saved. Jesus says,

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.”

1. But the Greek word translated “eternal” (or “everlasting”) is aionios, and does NOT in fact mean “unending or everlasting in quantity of time.” Rather, aionios speaks to an "indeterminate age set by God alone.” This adjective is used to describe something within time, not outside time (that is, in eternity). Aionios is the adjective form of the Greek word aion, where we get our English word “eon” (age). Young’s Literal Translation for aionios is always “age-during.”

2. And the Greek word translated in this verse as “punishment” is kolasis, a term used to describe the pruning back of trees, to allow fuller and healthier growth. It is also used to describe corrective punishment, “inflicted in the interest of the sufferer.” (For vindictive, vengeful punishment, “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction,” the word timoria is used.)

Note: Many erroneously believe that if you deny that the punishment of this verse lasts forever, then you must also deny that the “eternal” life of the saved is unending. But that doesn’t follow, because this verse is dealing with life, or punishment, WITHIN TIME, during the final eon. However, eternity is outside time.

In 1 Cor. 15:20-28, we discover where time will come to its end, and eternity will begin. When the last person has repented in the Lake of Fire, the purpose of the Lake will be finished. It might take a long time, but “Love is patient.” 1 Cor. 13:4.

So the aionios life (eternal life, NASB) ends because it is within time, but the “eternal life” never ends because it is outside of time?

Immortality will give those who receive it endless (i.e. eternal) life. For Christians this occurs when Christ returns & resurrects them from death.

[Hermano]

Davo, perhaps I have misunderstood you, and misrepresented your position. If so, I apologize.

Do you believe it was God who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in righteous judgment? That God was, shall we say, “fed up,” and “let them have it,” after warning them (the Jews in Jerusalem) that He Himself would do it (via the Romans) unless they repented?

Or, do you believe God exclusively warned the Jews about *Satan’s *plan for the destruction of Jerusalem (via the Romans), calling them to repentance in order to save them from it? That He was in no way responsible for, or instrumental in, Jerusalem’s destruction? That Satan alone is the destroyer?

Thanks.

[davo]

“Israel” per sé wasn’t being “punished”. The old covenant which had been the life (though it came to be the spiritual death

) of Israel was done… the old covenant Mosaic world of law-righteousness and all that symbolised it, was coming down and coming to naught. The nation had been redeemed at Calvary, and so all vestiges of the old régime had to go — unfortunately anyone ignoring the warnings given paid dearly.

Humanity had sat in the darkness of ignorance as to its Creator (Acts 17:27-28) but through the gospel (Israel’s redemption) the light of grace shone to the point where Gentiles could see their inclusion into this grace — that’s the wider reconciliation that flowed from Israel’s redemption, as per Romans 11 above.

In the sheep and the goats parable Jesus says “eternal punishment”.

The issue here is that Jesus warned about post-Calvary punishment.

He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal”

CLEARLY the text of Mt 25:33, 41, 46 references both goats AND sheep… so potential “punishment” was not wholly inclusive of the entire nation — my point… as it was in Paul’s plea of Rom 10:1 etc.

[Hermano]

So the aionios life (eternal life, NASB) ends because it is within time, but the “eternal life” never ends because it is outside of time?

Immortality will give those who receive it endless (i.e. eternal) life. For Christians this occurs when Christ returns & resurrects them from death.

I think so. The promise of “Age-during” life (wrongly translated “eternal” life) only has to do with how we may experience our existence within time. But eternity is time-LESS, and there, there is no rebellion, pain, suffering, death, beginning or end.

I believe all humans, in 2017, are either alive on earth, alive in some aspect of heaven, or suffering in the captivity of hell; yet all are still inside the boundaries of time and space.

However, I also think that all humans, and all angelic beings (see note), are also already outside time and space, enjoying never-ending adventures and experiences—with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and each other—in an immortalized Creation, having all already “graduated” from the “classroom” of time.

In eternity, everyone is already presently living ‘happily ever after’ with God.

We are all currently in two places at once, although we can’t really yet perceive it: in this “classroom,” as passing, or failing, students; and yet all of us also already living as successful “graduates,” in eternity.

Time and space enclose our classroom now; but eventually every last created person will repent and receive Jesus as Savior; and then we will all “graduate” together, into a single eternal existence, at a particular moment: when the last person (that slowest, most self-willed student among us) finally comes out of the Lake of Fire, and drinks the living water of Jesus that is freely available to all (Rev. 22:17).

Linear time will end with that person’s repentance, at some point in our future. We will all graduate together, as indicated in 1 Cor. 15:20-28:

Hermano

"]"Then comes THE END” v. 24. All Death will have been abolished (which would include the Second Death, The Lake of Fire) v. 26, and God will finally be “all in all” v. 28.
Note: The first sinner was Lucifer. Speaking of the comprehensiveness of the redemptive work of Christ, and also our co-crucifixion with Him (Gal. 2:20), recall that the crucifixion of Jesus was prefigured in Numbers 21:9 by a bronze serpent on a pole. And Jesus promised, “And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all pas] to me.” John 12:32.

Blessings.

[davo]

Davo:

He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal”

No. My issue was that you said Israel wasn’t punished. In the sheep and goats parable, Jesus warns of punishment. As preterists, we interpret this punishment as occurring in 70. My question was why God would punish people he was simultaneously reconciled to.

qaz… can’t you see in my post above yours that the explanation was limited to certain ones within Israel, so to extrapolate as you do beyond this (and then make your various conclusions) is to ignore what I’ve previously noted, i.e., JUST BECAUSE Israel WAS redeemed whole-scale didn’t remove certain consequences flowing through — God in his mercy was giving them fair warning to turn… many did, plenty didn’t. That many didn’t doesn’t in any way shape or form nullify the divine reconciliation any more than the ignorance of those present nullified Jesus’ entreaty to the Father… “forgive them for they know not what they do” — that is of course unless you believe the Father did not grant Jesus’ plea.

Paul’s “And so all Israel will be saved” spoke to their redemption, and this was fulfilled. The FACT that SOME were temporally blinded in part, and as such either killed or taken captive to Rome reflects to reality of redemptive election where some were spared and some were not, BUT all together were in God’s hands with regards to the outworking of the reconciliation. That’s what Paul’s… “who are you O man to reply against God?” was all about. We look at it and think… “man, sucks to be them” — but in the bigger picture of God’s redemptive working BECAUSE they WERE reconciled all would have been well with them ultimately.

Still, I wouldn’t have liked to have been in their shoes. But again… my MAIN point was that the judgement of AD70 was on the OC institution that had been corrupted.

[maintenanceman]

Davo:

He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal”

No. My issue was that you said Israel wasn’t punished. In the sheep and goats parable, Jesus warns of punishment. As preterists, we interpret this punishment as occurring in 70. My question was why God would punish people he was simultaneously reconciled to.

Lets put it a different way, If we look at in a fundamental/ historical context… you have a son or daughter that is really doing bad stuff, you continually tell them that the bad stuff they are doing is going to cause total harm, in other words, ‘PLEASE TURN FROM WHAT YOU ARE DOING’ and here is how you can change your way… so the son or daughter continue in the less than righteous behavior, you try multiple times to try to tell them they are screwing up… So in the end, because you love them so much, you say, ‘I will pay your debt’. I love you. So the debt is being paid but the forces of the sons and daughters are rebelling… There are those who say Wait, I think I am doing what you want me to do… Your so called way out is crazy… But a son was put to death.

But the prophets before told the story to come… the story of the son…

In the end the Father clears the board, He has sent the one, In other words He sets all things straight. Ahh but HE continues to love the sons and daughters…

Can we argue with that?

[davo]

According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption:

“Redemption was fulfilled through

the prophesied AD30–70 Cross*–Parousia* event.”

You really haven’t worked and thought through the implications of your own position… your own position is that redemption ISN’T complete UNTIL Christ’s parousia. All I’m saying is… “YEAH, and my position has that parousia as done!” THEREFORE redemption IS complete. So, in FACT, it is your own lack of parousia that has YOUR position denuding the Cross of its power, i.e., it is your position that is truly the one being…
“NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption”.

Pantelism understands the AD30-70 event, i.e., Christ’s cross and parousia were bookends to God’s ONE-time salvific intervention into human history that ultimately covered and made provision for all.

IOW… the Cross was God’s DECISIVE event with the Parousia being God’s CULMINATING event.

[Hermano]

According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption:

“Redemption was fulfilled through

the prophesied AD30–70 Cross*–Parousia* event.”
You really haven’t worked and thought through the implications of your own position… your own position is that redemption ISN’T complete UNTIL Christ’s parousia. All I’m saying is… “YEAH, and my position has that parousia as done!” THEREFORE redemption IS complete. So, in FACT, it is your own lack of parousia that has YOUR position denuding the Cross of its power, i.e., it is your position that is truly the one being…
“NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption”.

Pantelism understands the AD30-70 event, i.e., Christ’s cross and parousia were bookends to God’s ONE-time salvific intervention into human history that ultimately covered and made provision for all.

IOW… the Cross was God’s DECISIVE event with the Parousia being God’s CULMINATING event.

?

Our redemption was complete at the cross, before we were born: at the cross, we were all “bought at a price” (1 Cor. 6:20).

…Nevertheless, you and I are BOTH still waiting for “the redemption of our bodies” (Romans 8:23). The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future, yet we hope for it in faith and perseverance, trusting that God is faithful to His word, and that the promised glory will be a reality.

Or do you consider your body to be already glorified, Davo?

Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Corinthians 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 - So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Matthew 22:30 - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Blessings.

[Origen]

Origen said:

That’s interesting, Davo. Thanks for the explanation.

Pantelism is sort of new to me. I don’t recall ever hearing of it before a year or two ago. Searching the internet in the past 24 hours, i’m surprised at how much info there is on the subject.

David is quite a scholar. The best.

You might want to look at this…presence.tv/integral-theology/

My concern was with the issue of future & post mortem punishment, or the denial thereof, as it relates to Pantelism.

Debating the various views of the future - Post, Pre & A-Millenialism, Preterism etc - don’t hold much interest. Why bother.

I suppose all 99% of Christians would need to hear about it is the following before dismissing it entirely & never looking back:

"“Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust…”

[davo]

Our redemption was complete at the cross, before we were born: at the cross, we were all “bought at a price” (1 Cor. 6:20).

…Nevertheless, you and I are BOTH still waiting for “the redemption of our bodies” (Romans 8:23). The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future, yet we hope for it in faith and perseverance, trusting that God is faithful to His word, and that the promised glory will be a reality.

You can’t with any legitimacy claim ‘1 Cor. 6:20’ was saying that ‘redemption was complete’ AND THEN slip in a qualifying… “The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future…” — that is NOWHERE in any text. If redemption is complete, it is complete, period. That you misconstrue Rom 8:23 doesn’t justify this bob-each-way claim.

Paul says… “the redemption of our body” — for the pantelist this is to be understood in terms of the ‘collective body politic’ — the Greek text is in the singular, NOT plural. The ‘body’ that was being redeemed, i.e., a change at that time in progress, was the covenant body of Israel… from OLD covenant to NEW covenant. And THAT is the understanding of the 1Cor 15 passages you likewise misconstrue.

The pantelist understanding of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the physical time-space creation… this passage is about “the creature” Israel, and her redemption, i.e., covenant renewal aka resurrection:

Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (exponential tribulations AD30-70) are not worthy to be compared with the glory (glorified 8:30) which shall be revealed in us (firstfruit saints). For the earnest expectation of the creature (historic Israel) waiteth for the manifestation (election 11:5) of the sons of God (firstfruit saints). For the creature (historic Israel) was made subject to vanity (the Law), not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope (covenant renewal), because the creature (historic Israel) itself also shall be delivered (redeemed) from the bondage of corruption (the law) into the glorious liberty (grace) of the children of God (firstfruit saints). For we know that the whole creation (all Israel) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they (historic Israel), but ourselves (firstfruit saints) also, which have the firstfruits (down payment) of the (eschatological) Spirit, even we ourselves (firstfruit saints) groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (deliverance) of our body (‘singular’ — release from the OC ‘body’ of ‘the Death’ as per 7:24).

Or do you consider your body to be already glorified, Davo?

No… viewed from the pantelist position the 1Cor 15 passage is not speaking of you or me, and NOT speaking of “physical bodies in postmortem resurrection”. 1Cor 15 is all about Israel being raised up out of ‘the body of death’ aka the old covenant INTO ‘the body of Christ’ aka the new covenant.

Israel was sown in a natural body of *dishonour *and weakness — Judaism = corruption

Israel was being raised in a spiritual body of glory and power — Christianity = incorruption

Incorruption was being put off. When the last vestiges of were corruption were gone, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in Christ’s AD70 Parousia THEN came to fulfillment “death is defeated.”

1Cor 15:56 The sting of the death is the sin, and the strength of the sin is the law.

The veracity of this understanding is backed up by the parsing of each and every “it is sown / it is raised” in the passage where EACH ONE is rendered in the present tense — an action in progress — thus “it is being sown” AND “it is being raised”. This was akin to Paul’s “putting off the old man” dying to self and thus being raised to newness of life, aka “putting on the new man” — putting on the new creation (new Israel) aka “the Israel of God” etc, etc.

[LLC]

Israel was sown in a natural body of dishonour and weakness — Judaism = corruption

Israel was being raised in a spiritual body of glory and power — Christianity = incorruption

This is the problem from your point of view, as with many who believe God’s word was lost because of Adam, consequently developing over time until finally being revealed in Jesus. However, this is not the case at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. God’s word began with Adam in the garden wherein he tested it and found it to be true. He then passed it on to his children, who passed it on to their children and so on and so forth.

Israel was not sown in corruption as you state, rather it was sown in righteousness, the righteousness of Abraham and those that came before him, as it says here

1 Corinthians 10:3 tells us “Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the SAME SPIRITUAL FOOD( the bread of heaven) and all drank the SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.”

These people were given the same instructions, the same word, that Jesus taught. As Jesus Himself said, His words were not His but his Father’s, meaning they were not only God’s words, but the words of the forefathers. These words were what the nation of Israel was founded on, as it says in Joshua 21:43-45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The lord gave them rest all around, according to all that he had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

As in the parable of the wheat and the tares, the “law” entered in via man.
Isaiah 5:4 "And now O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between Me and My vineyard what more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

[davo]

Davo, I don’t know why you say “whole creation” refers to Israel. Might you be reaching?

Could be, in fact I originally naturally took whole creation to mean humanity, and I don’t really have an issue with that but to say thematically applying it to Israel makes more sense IMO. The passage is the contrast between the creature/creation Israel and the firstfruits (sons/children of God in Christ) elected to bring to fruition the redemption… that which they were the firstfruits thereof, i.e., Israel. This then follows Paul’s same… “and so all Israel (whole creation) will be saved (redeemed).”

Ultimately what God is doing in the biblical story for the wider creation of humanity He is doing FIRST for His Creature Israel… “to the Jew first and then the Greek” etc. I tend to think a goodly portion of “the world” language speaks to and of Israel’s world, such as Jn 3:16 and 1Jn 2:2. That is not to say such can’t have application beyond, BUT I think the evangelical trend of reading ourselves directly into everything INSTEAD OF seeing such as applying secondarily as the divinely intended beneficiaries; this I tend to think can at times miss and mess with the text… but that’s just my opinion.

As I showed earlier in this thread, according to the pantelist position… the likes of Paul’s words elsewhere show the extent and reach of Israel’s redemption to be the divinely intended catalyst and prerequisite to securing humanity’s reconciliation, i.e., it was ALWAYS God’s plan for all…

Rom 11:12, 15 Now if their (Israel’s) fall is riches for the world (humanity), and their (Israel’s) failure riches for the Gentiles (firstfruit saints Acts 13:48; 15:14, 17), how much more their (Israel’s) fullness! … For if their (Israel) being cast away (by God) is the reconciling of the world (humanity), what will their (Israel’s) acceptance (by God) be but life (redemptive resurrection)* from the dead?*

Thus did Israel’s redemption reconcile the world — to quote somebody really important… “it is finished!”

[davo]

Israel was sown in a natural body of dishonour and weakness — Judaism = corruption

Israel was being raised in a spiritual body of glory and power — Christianity = incorruption

This is the problem from your point of view, as with many who believe God’s word was lost because of Adam, consequently developing over time until finally being revealed in Jesus.

This is the problem from my point of view with so many of your posts… I have to spend way too much time undoing or correcting what you say I’m saying, when I’m NOT saying what you say I’m saying.

[maintenanceman]

Maybe we could ask, what, if any, verses talk about salvation not connected to the first century destruction of the temple by the Romans

Then we should talk about the word reconciliation as opposed to salvation in the general evangelical notion of this idea of after life.???

[davo]

Davo, do you think the terms salvation/saved ever refer to anything other than escaping the Roman Jewish war? If so, what?

Yes of course… context is important. In this light have a look… HERE.

Maybe we could ask, what, if any, verses talk about salvation not connected to the first century destruction of the temple by the Romans

Then we should talk about the word reconciliation as opposed to salvation in the general evangelical notion of this idea of after life.???

This is how pantelism views these things… HERE.

[LLC]

The way I see it, parousias were happening all the time. The Garden of Eden fell, Noah and the flood, the Tower of Babel collapsed, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the Israelites were brought out of Egypt, Samson ripped down Temple, etc. etc. etc. In fact, the Temple was destroyed and rebuilt many times. As I mentioned before, these are reoccurring events.

[davo]

Not as such, but if that is your understanding I’m not going to argue with it.

[Hermano]

Our redemption was complete at the cross, before we were born: at the cross, we were all “bought at a price”

(1 Cor. 6:20).

…Nevertheless, you and I are BOTH still waiting for “the redemption of our BODIES” (Romans 8:23). The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future, yet we hope for it in faith and perseverance, trusting that God is faithful to His word, and that the promised glory will be a reality.
You can’t with any legitimacy claim ‘1 Cor. 6:20’ was saying that ‘redemption was complete’ AND THEN slip in a qualifying… “The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future…” — that is NOWHERE in any text. If redemption is complete, it is complete, period. That you misconstrue Rom 8:23 doesn’t justify this bob-each-way claim.

Why can’t I? I am arguing that this is precisely what the Scriptures themselves are indicating!

From Merriam-Webster.com:

Definition of redemption
:the act, process, or an instance of redeeming

In the Old Testament redemption was the process of buying something back. The Hebrew word for Redeemer is Ga’al, and means to ransom, to play the role of a kinsman. The kinsman, someone of the same family would redeem or pay what his relative could not. In the book of Ruth, Boaz was the kinsman-redeemer for Ruth whose husband died (Ruth 2:1). Ruth was destitute, she along with her mother-in-law were forced to beg for their survival, by gleaning the fields of Boaz. Ruth had no idea of what her redemption meant.

Mankind was sold into slavery in the Garden of Eden. Adam, God’s representative for mankind, had been given full authority and possession of the earth (Genesis 1:28-30). Everything belonged to him. He transferred this birthright to Satan when he ate from the tree that God instructed him not to (Genesis 2:16-17). According to the Law of the Kinsman Redeemer, only a relative could redeem or purchase back that which was lost or sold. In other words, mankind was the only one who could provide this redemption. This is why Jesus came in the flesh, fully God and fully man (Isaiah 59:16, John 1:14). Jesus became our brother so Adam and all mankind could be redeemed ( Hebrews 2:11).

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14.

The redemption price has been paid by Jesus, but the process is not complete: our bodies, the earth, and the rest of creation have yet to fully manifest the benefits of the redemption, even to be immortalized.

[Hermano]

Debating the various views of the future - Post, Pre & A-Millenialism, Preterism etc - don’t hold much interest. Why bother.

Because! What if I am right about the truth of futurism? Although I am an evangelical universalist, hell and the lake of fire are long and painful; let alone the suffering in this life that results from ignorance and deception.

Take “Antichrist,” for example:

Revelation tells about Antichrist and the Tribulation Saints. Paul tells about Antichrist and the church before the Rapture. Antichrist will not be “revealed” as Satan till the Rapture; but he will come as a man and deceive the world before the Rapture. Many church members have the truth, but they do not have a love of the truth and therefore are easily deceived.

Deceit is the outstanding feature of the rise of Antichrist. When the disciples asked Jesus, “What shall be the sign?” the first thing He said was, “See that ye be not deceived.”

Paul said his coming would be with all deceivableness of unrighteousness. Revelation speaks of Satan “which deceiveth the whole world.” There is only one way to avoid being deceived; that is to know and love the truth. You will not be deceived if you know what to expect.

The term Antichrist is found only in I and II John. There it is anyone who denies Christ. His name is not revealed, so each Bible writer has his own name for him.

The Little Horn (Dan. 7:8; 8:9)
A Vile Person (Dan. 11:21)
The Assyrian (Isa. 10:5)
The Chaldean (Hab. 1:6)
Gog and Magog (Ezek. 38)
The Man of Sin (II Thess. 2:3)
The Beast out of the sea (Rev. 13:1)

Here is the man who completely represents Satan. **From the time of his rise, all earthly doings revolve around him. ** He will continue to grow in power and arrogance till Christ comes. His destruction is the climax of Daniel’s prophecies. He is the fulfillment of Satan’s two compelling ambitions: to be the prince of this world and to be the god of this world—to rule and to be worshipped. Daniel makes two statements about the world conditions at the time that Antichrist makes his appearance.

And it the latter time of their kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the might and the holy people—Dan. 8:23, 24

“When the transgressors are come to the full.” Jesus referred to this particular time as the harvest (Matt. 13:30). The harvest is the end of the growing season. The judgment will be a harvest. God will judge only a finished work. He will allow evil to come to a harvest. The time of trouble such as never was will be due to a time of evil such as never was; but everything will be in its order….

…The prophet Habukkuk has more to say about the conditions at the time of the rise of Antichrist. He is so important that his destruction is thought of as synonymous with the establishment of the kingdom. Daniel has four visions running parallel. They do not all begin with the same event, but they all end with the destruction of Antichrist or the establishing of the kingdom or both. (From A Survey of Bible Prophecy (1971), by Professor Arthur E. Bloomfield. Emphases mine.)

“But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21:36.