Preterism & Pantelism remain a concern to me re future punishment, as they seem to often lead people to either minimalize or eliminate it completely. Is that your issue with Pantelism? I’m not clear on your point re the antichrist quote. Generally speaking my focus is on Jesus Christ.
Just a footnote here - from Wiki at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantelism
Again, this sentence is important:
I think Hermano was referring to a variation of Pascal’s wager - regarding futurism (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager).
And yet, Geoffrey was a traditional Eastern Orthodox church member. Yet I’m not aware of anything in Eastern Orthodoxy…or the historical church fathers…that supports his “ultra-universalism”. Correct me if I’m wrong. And if his theory is right, then I could be a Hell’s Angel or Outlaw gang member - all my life. And it wouldn’t make any difference. 
My point about the Antichrist is this: he is the next prophetic sign.
I believe he will soon arise in a time of world crisis, as an underestimated leader (a “little horn”) who will militarily “knock heads together” and then lead the world into an unprecedented age of peace and prosperity.
“Peace” cannot be taken from the earth (Rev. 6:4) unless the earth first becomes peaceful. I believe the pre-Trib rapture (possibly the first of several raptures) is a rescue from what will come on the world after the party balloon is finally popped, when Jesus breaks the first seal on that title deed scroll (Rev. 6:1), and begins the eviction process against Satan. And, *the devil will not go quietly. *
Origen, I am concerned about Jesus’ warning to us found in the parable of the virgins:
Blessings.
Hermano wrote:
You seem to be following many before you who have prophesied the same thing about the antichrist and end of the world…
(and it will not happen!) You are not looking at who the bible is about and written to and also when it was written, and wanting to shove your own ideas into the mix. Good luck with that. When the time passes that you all think IT will happen you all say OH WELL 
We have got to get back to biblical sanity. 
What is your understanding of the virgins parable, Hermano?
As long as shit disturber Trump is around i don’t see there being peace. If he is a big horn, then who in Asia might be “a little horn”?
Re “hell and the lake of fire are long and painful; let alone the suffering in this life that results from ignorance and deception”, how does a view that God wouldn’t swat a fly in this life, (let alone terminate Sodom, Pharoah or Noah’s world) harmonize or reconcile with the view of Him assigning His created beings to a “hell and the lake of fire” that are “long and painful”? What Scripture says such is “long and painful”?
Well yeah that’s ok… I can play that game. Your original ill-informed argument that… ”“According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption was and is completely false AND nonsensical GIVEN you then admitted your own position’s contradiction when you said… ”The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future,… — IF that in itself isn’t an incomplete redemption then I don’t know what is. Can you not you see your bogus charge falls flat via your own contradiction?
The ONLY difference then between pertinent pantelism and fabulous futurism is THE LENGTH of post-cross and pre-parousia TIME. Your position has pushed that period of time out into the indefinite never-never of ever-evolving speculation; whereas my position views that same post-cross / pre-parousia period of time, where redemption was in its “process” (see we agree 
), as being the New Testament’s 40yr period AD30-70 period of Jesus’ prophesied “this generation” where some in Israel (to whom Jesus was ACTUALLY speaking) would… “not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.” Mt 16:28. IF that period of time STILL remains THEN logic dictates there MUST STILL BE some very, very old people ALIVE to whom Jesus spoke STILL waiting to… “see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.” — good going!
There is a great distinction between hell and the subsequent lake of fire; but I would argue both of them are terrible and lengthy, and to be avoided at all costs:
- Hell is still currently a P.O.W. camp *directed by Satan. *
- The lake of fire, as described in Rev. 20:10-15, is the place into which the devil and hell will eventually be thrown–a place of remediation directed by a loving God.
Regarding 1) hell, I believe Jesus was referring to Satan, NOT his loving Father, when he said this:
And although Satan was later defeated at the cross, he has obviously been quite successful at keeping humanity blind to that fact. As Richard Murray has said,
As to 2) the Lake of Fire, which God lovingly oversees, this is what I said elsewhere:
Blessings.
Maintenanceman, I am not so much prophesying as interpreting the prophetic Scriptures. And I go by this fundamental rule:
If a prophecy has not been totally fulfilled in the past, then there will be a future complete fulfillment.
When Satan’s man saves the world from what seems like certain destruction, and sets up a time of peace and prosperity that looks like it will last forever; when he, with his mouth speaking great things, deceives the world, then the just will live by faith—because everything in the natural will seem to point to the rightness of Antichrist.
And yet can provide NO scripture that says this… more unsubstantiated opinion. 
And yet can provide NO scripture that says this… more unsubstantiated opinion.
Please take another look at the futurist explanation of which “generation” Jesus is actually referring to–with supporting examples–which I shared previously with you:
Let me clarify that I believe the occupants of hell, like those here in the land of the living, are still under the influence of Satan.
Perhaps when I said hell is directed by Satan, instead of “directed,” I should have said “manipulated” or “taken advantage of,” as he certainly has NOT been assigned any responsibilities there by God. Nor is hell in any way Satan’s place of residence: he is still roaming the earth.
Satan has been defeated, but he is still able to torment and afflict those who don’t know how to resist him through the victory of Jesus:
With all due respect to A. E. Bloomfield’s inventive interpretations I find the historical and textual-laden accuracy of Jesus’ words more convincing, wherein Jesus himself provides the specific reference for understanding who “this generation” stands for; no sleight of hand nor arm-twisting is needed to see EXACTLY WHO Jesus speaks of, i.e., Jesus wasn’t speaking glibly over their dull heads, no, He was speaking directly to THEM…
The Pharisees then and there were seeking a sign, not some distant none existent people; Jesus was specifically answering to THEM!
According to this verse… at which generation’s hands did Jesus specifically suffer rejection? You cannot skirt around the issue as the answer is bleedingly obvious.
Hermano… pantelism accepts the plain sense of this verse when no other sense makes common sense other than the plain sense — so how do you explain this text away? IF the parousia is still yet to occur WHERE are these old people?
But I’m a bit different - as a futurist. I predict a tribulation, of a different sort. In the up and coming Zombie apocalypse (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse). Don’t say I didn’t warn you 
Well, my position is closer to that of Hermano’s.
Christ’s work on the cross is an accomplished fact. But each one’s personal salvation is a process.
As Paul put it:
The “day of Jesus Christ.” His second coming is yet future. It didn’t happen in 70 A.D.
The following passage (including the part I didn’t quote) makes abundantly clear the conditions when Christ returns:
Were all nations gathered before Jesus in 70 A.D.? Were all those nations judged by Him at that time? To hold that they were is to blindly cling to Preterism in spite of all evidence to the contrary. Of course,I suppose one could declare that everything is the above passage is to be taken figuratively—so figuratively that the passage loses its meaning altogether.
I have read Josephus’s account of the sacking of Jerusalem around 70 A.D. in “The Wars of the Jews.” Basically all that happened is that while most of the Jews were happy enough to be under Roman Rule, the Zealots kept attacking the Romans. The Roman Government was pretty patient about these attacks for a long time, but they finally had enough and came in with armies and overtook them, and destroyed the temple.
To read into those events all the predictions of Jesus, as preterists do, is in my opinion, ludicrous.
I agree with Davo in that the lake of fire is biblical language for earthly events (war and destruction), as in these verses
Exodus 9:23 “Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky and the lord sent thunder and hail and fire ran down to the earth.”
2 Samuel 22:9 “Smoke went out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured.”
Genesis 19:24 “Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.”
As it says in Romans 9:29 “unless the Lord had left us descendants we would have been like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah.”
Isaiah 1:7-9 also says this: “Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire; strangers devour your land in your presence; and it is desolate.as overthrown by strangers. Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a very small remnant, we would have become like Sodom, we would have become like Gomorrah.”
This is why I say that these parousias are reoccurring events. They happened before and after Jesus and continue to happen because evil still exists.
I believe this is why the Jewish people say that Jesus was not the Christ/ Messiah
Or the lake of fire, could be all - being in the presence of God. And we experience heaven or hell, depending on our closeness to Christ. Which is a take, on Eastern Orthodox theology. However, if we argue on this forum…for whether the sea in Revalations is, a literal body of water…or how they used language…to denote bad stuff…in the Old Testament…Etc…Etc…We have a long ways to go, regarding the lake of fire.
See orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=26914.0- for example:
Let’s dedicate a song, to this lake of fire - at https://youtu.be/mIBTg7q9oNc
I agree. However, the lake of fire being referred to must be put into context. It is compared to Sodom and Gomorrah ( as in Romans 9:29 and Isaiah 1:7-9)
As Ephesians 6:12 says, “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”,in other words,tyranny, totalitarianism, those who seek to rule the world via there own way and not the way according to God.
The Eastern Orthodox may well be right. In C.S. Lewis’s The Last Battle in his Narnian series, The bad dwarfs as well as the good ones all ended up in Aslan’s Country. But the bad dwarfs thought they were still in the stable, and that the food offered them was rotten turnips left by the cows, and that the choicest wine was urine from the troughs behind the cows.
Also, Randy, the Eastern Orthodox, like myself, believe that salvation from sin for the individual, is progressive throughout one’s lifetime.
Check out [
(I still don’t know how to make a youtube video play on a posting)**Are You Saved? **](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU&t=2s)