Hmmm…it’s been quite a while since I had any belief in the ‘Rapture’ as was popularized 30 years ago by, among others, Hal Lindsay. That was around the time I read Kik’s book on the eschatology of victory - a real turning point - I think you read it also.
Yep… Kik’s postmillennialism was responsible for steering me beyond amillennialism into the prêterist direction 
davo - is that paragraph a place where you would differ from NTW?
Yep for sure… Pantelism takes the approach of covenant eschatology where “the resurrection” of 1Cor 15 speaks to the covenant restoration of corporate Israel… not the typical reading of individual physical resurrection. I tend to read that Corinthian passage punctuated with a slight variance (not that there was too much punctuation of the Greek text anyway) much like The Passion Translation; thus I read it so…
1Cor 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
The firstfruits in this passage being identified as “the church of the firstborn ones” of Heb 12:23.
Qaz, you ignored my convincing examination above of explicit unfulfilled prophecy in Zechariah which reveals the coming resurrection of Babylon in Iraq as a commercial center…because of this??
Revelation says NOWHERE that Babylon killed the prophets. The Bible implies nowhere that Jerusalem is Babylon. You provide no evidence, because there is none. Biblically, “Babylon” is a region in Mesopotamia-Shinar-Country between two rivers.
Actually, John said the SPIRIT of the antichrist is now here, not THE antichrist (1 John 4:3). He said that “THE” ANTICHRIST is coming, but that even now there are many “antichrists” (1 John 2:18).
There is a “spirit” of antichrist, and there have been little previews/prototypes of THE Antichrist in history, such as Nimrod and Hitler.
The world is moving back to unity centered at Babylon—a unity not based on God—just as it did after the flood, under Nimrod at the tower at Babylon. (“Nimrod = rebellion or the valiant. He was the son of Cush, grandson of Ham, and great grandson of Noah; a mighty hunter, he established an empire in the area of Babylon and Assyria.”)
Unity at the expense of truth reveals the “spirit" of antichrist. (I might add anti-Semitism, political correctness, and dominion theology.)
Consider this…
OOPS! I forgot about Rev. 18:24, and the guilt assigned to Babylon for worldwide bloodshed under the Antichrist—including the deaths of those bearing testimony to Jesus by the Spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10). We also read in Rev. 17:6, “I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.”
Nevertheless, Babylon is Babylon, and cannot be proven to be Jerusalem. Again, as argued above, we read about the forthcoming rebuilding of Babylon as a commercial center, represented by a wicked woman who will be carried there in an ephah basket, in Zechariah 5.
Futurists recognize prophecy in the Olivet Discourse pertaining to both 1) the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, and 2) a later attack on a rebuilt Jerusalem by the forces of Antichrist, at which time Christ will come down from heaven to bring rescue—The Second Coming. E.g., Zech. 12:8-9, Rev 19:14-15. (Attack against Jerusalem being divided into “A” and “B” is akin to the “Part A” and “Part B” messianic prophecies, separated by a gulf of time, discussed above.)
As you know, my view about “the sword, famine, and plague” is that they come from the devil, who goes through the doors opened by the sinful rejection of God and His offer of divine favor and refuge. But that they (the sword, famine, and plague) are sometimes misattributed to God.
However, the unchanging God, perfectly represented by Jesus, is only about abundant life, in distinction to the devil (John 10:10), who wields the power of death (Heb. 2:14).
Satan loves no one. He is a murderer. Regarding the Ten Plagues, God wanted to warn the Egyptians to repent so they could be spared; but God’s messages through Moses and Aaron were embellished by them, and misrepresented as a series of threats of violence that God would carry out, instead of only warnings to repent in order to avoid the evil consequences (which we understand from NT light the devil would carry out).
The rebuilt Babylon of Revelation will again be in the area of southern Iraq, as the headquarters of what will be long-thriving world commerce under Antichrist (but which will be suddenly punctuated by the first, Pre-Trib Rapture).
God has had no covenant relation with Babylon, so the terrible rage of the devil against his eviction foretold in Revelation has nothing to do with the Jews being slaughtered by God. Hence, the demonic rage foretold in Revelation compares more with The Ten Plagues against the Egyptians, than with the threatened curses against Jews given in Deut. 28.
Qaz, as a futurist, I recognize, as per, for example, the unfulfilled prophecy of the resurrection of Babylon considered in my discussion of Zech. 5, that a literal city Babylon will indeed some day be rebuilt in Mesopotamia; and that we see great added detail of this coming fulfillment in the book of Revelation.
Yet, as you pointed out, Rev. 18:24 states that, “And in her [Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”
As you now further point out, in order to build your case that Babylon = Jerusalem, Jesus said in Luke 13:33,
“Nevertheless, I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.”
But it sure sounds here like Jesus is satirically quoting a proverb about the murder of genuine prophets under the Old Testament (à la “You build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them”), an experience which would now include himself.
The question is, does this argument prove that the Babylon of Revelation is not a literal rebuilt Babylon, but rather a figurative Babylon, which is actually literal Jerusalem? Certainly not:
- Moses, the most famous Old Covenant prophet, certainly died outside Jerusalem; and Aaron, and Joshua.
- Samuel died in Ramah.
- Jeremiah died in Egypt.
- Ezekiel died in Babylon.
- Jonah’s tomb, Nahum’s tomb, Habakkuk’s tomb are all located outside Jerusalem.
And of course there were (and still are?) “prophets” under the New Covenant: Acts 11:27, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10, 1 Cor. 14:29, 32, 37, Ephesians 3:5, 4:11. And the apostle John, presumed author of Revelation, died on Patmos.
I should mention that the Jews will be in Israel, not Babylon, during the coming events of Revelation, because the Antichrist will be, like his prototype Adolf Hitler, a dangerous anti-Semite.
There is reason to believe that the Jews worldwide will be regathered to Israel through persecution, and come under the protection of the resurfaced Ark of the Covenant, at least until they make a seven year covenant with the Antichrist, which he will break.
(Regarding the future regathering of all Jews together, and the coming reappearance of the Ark/Ensign/Banner, see, for example, Ezek 20:34-38, Is. 18:3, 11:12, and a future retrospection about the Ark seen in Jer. 3:16,17 —in relation to its recent past reverence.)
Qaz, nobody’s disagreeing about the guilt and lack of repentance of Israel, which opened the door to its destruction in 70 AD (which the God of love did not cause to happen). Everything did happen as was foretold here…
Matthew 23:35-39 (NIV)
35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
…Well, everything except that last part:
39 “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
When Jesus comes again, (after the full number of gentiles has come in), the natural branches will be grafted back in; the Jewish people will finally recognize and welcome Jesus as the Messiah saying, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!“
And just as Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed (70 AD), but are incredibly coming back in modern times (1948 and following) in fulfillment of “Part B” prophecies concerning them, destroyed Babylon will be rebuilt—but then destroyed again—in fulfillment of “Part B” prophecies concerning it.
As to me wearing “Zionist blinders,” I am all for the reestablishment of Israel, and for its peace, safety, and prosperity. Salvation is from the Jews.
And I see that the Jews will one day hold the place of highest honor on earth, during the Millennial Age; but that place of honor is certainly not as high as the Bride of the Lamb.
You mean Israel 3,000 years ago?
One of the critical things is what exactly does the word “until” mean? Is it definitive or is it conditional upon the Jews first believing and then Jesus returns?
I think the prophecies were older than that. But either way it’s not a big deal. To me.
In Genesis 3 , i believe was the prophecy between “the seed of the women” and Satan was 3,500 years in advance! What does the bible say a thousand years to God is?
I appreciate that this prophecy would appear to be conditional, but we see this earlier related unconditional prophecy regarding the certainty of the Jews’ repentance at the Second Coming…
Zec. 12:9-10
9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they WILL mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
…later being interpreted with unconditional certainty in this way:
Rom. 11:25-26
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way ALL Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he WILL turn godlessness away from Jacob.”
So Hermano, You don’t see the Jews returning to Israel first in unbelief as a problem?
It is a step-by-step process of repentance for the Jews, directed by a patient God, which will finally result in incomparably greater blessings for them than ever before.
A two-part series on open theism from Restitutio. Should be very provocative.
https://restitutio.org/2019/12/05/303-foreknowledge-and-freewill-1-dale-tuggy-introducing-open-theism/
https://restitutio.org/2019/12/12/304-foreknowledge-and-freewill-2-dale-tuggy-defending-open-theism/
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Well… I held my view of the matter long before I discovered that view to be “open theism.”
In brief, I believe that God is omniscient. But being omniscient does not imply that He knows that which cannot logically be known, namely what a free-will agent will choose in the future.
There are plenty of matters that God does not know in the impossible sense. For example, He does not know that the moon is made of green cheese. Simply because it isn’t. Similarly, He cannot know what a free-will agent will choose. Simply because the agent has not yet made that choice.
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In Oregon we say “If you don’t like the weather, wait 10 minutes, it’ll change.”
I’m much more stable than that - it takes almost a half-hour for me to change my mind on divine foreknowledge. 
As of now, I believe God can determine the future, but doesn’t micro-manage it. Freedom of the creature is maintained within limits.
Basically, our choices do count, our characters do matter, and God does determine the outcome. I don’t see any way for me personally to go much further than that, even though conceptual problems remain.
How about you?