The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Saved Blasphemer!

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

One of the traditional arguments againts UR is the concept of the unpardonable sin, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. And yet, to me, Paul’s comments concerning his own salvation in 1 Tim1. radically overcome this argument and affirms the salvation of all humanity. Note what Paul said.

12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a **blasphemer **and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So Paul, a blasphemer, one who claimed that Jesus was not the Messiah and very likely claimed that the miracles that He did were of Satan, an enemy of Christ even to the point of persecuting the church, recieved grace and faith in Christ. He emphasized that He was the “worst of sinners” and yet Jesus saved him. Though he was a blasphemer, a violent man, a persecutor of the church, Jesus appeared to him and the Revelation of the Lamb and discipline of the Father burnt the hell out of him, changed him, and saved him. When he was brought face to face with the truth of who Jesus is and the evil of his own sins, it changed him, saved him, and set him on a path of righteousness.

Did Paul choose Jesus? No, he fought Jesus with all of his might. Jesus chose Paul, chose to reveal Himself to Paul, chose Paul for a specific ministry, and even chose to show Paul all that he’d have to suffer for the name of Christ! Do not be mocked, what a man sows so shall he reap! Though Paul was saved, he still reaped terrible suffering for the bad things he did in persecuting the church. You know, I wonder just how much Paul wept in repentance and gnashed his teeth in regret and remorse over him approving of the stoning of Stephen and persecuting the church!

I do not believe that Paul was speaking poetically; rather, Paul realized just how evil of a man he was, how his religious beliefs, pride, and self-righteousness had motivated him to persecute people who were good people, calling evil that which is good. Religion can sure twist the mind. Paul realized the depth of his sin, the perversness of self-righteously motivated religious zeal. When Paul claimed to be the worst of all sinners, he meant it, even specifically noting that he was a blasphemer. And thus the salvation of Paul strongly counters the concept that any sin, even being a blasphemer, is unpardonable. Jesus forgave and saved Paul even though he was a blasphemer and persecutor of the church, the worst of all sinners.

#2

At the same time, Paul does say he was shown mercy because he acted in ignorance and unbelief. This only makes sense if Paul was honestly mistaken, not trying to cheat so as to hate without a cause.

Still, by putting himself in the place of the worst sinner, even the chief of sinners, Paul demonstrates the scope of his hope for sinners in Christ. (I do the same thing in my devotionals, remembering that I have no inherent advantage even over Satan–even in my penitence! All of us are, in an important way, at the same level as the “chief of sinners”, even if our sins are relatively ‘small’ by other standards.)

Can the chief of sinners be saved? Yes, if any sinner can be saved, the chief can, too. And by the persistent grace of God…! :smiley:

(God’s patience for saving from punishment may and does run out; but His patience must still be unlimited in some way: that of saving from sin.)

#3

I believe that the more we understand the depth of our depravity, the uncleaness of our souls, the twistedness of our thinking, and the depth of our selfishness, the more we realize that salvation is completely by grace. As for me, I know that I did not seek after God, but He sought me. I didn’t choose Him, He chose me. Though I was caught up in religious hypocricy, though I was bound in self-righteousness and pride, though I fought God on every hand, the Lord revealed His love to me and set me on a path to know Him. Like a horse dying of thirst, I was led to the fountain of Life! And I’ll never forget, it wasn’t until I was saved, born again, and filled with the Spirit, that they Lord began to show me the depth of my depravity, until I came to realize that there truly is nothing good in me except what I’ve received by grace through faith. And even the faith that I have is not of myself or in myself, but is of Christ and in Christ. The faith that I have is fruit of the Revelation of the Lamb; it is a byproduct of revelation. Faith is a gift, not something we work up from ourselves.

#4

Sherman, you are a great blessing from God. I keep thanking him in my spirit every time I read something by you because of the work He’s done in you. Paul’s life has touched my own, and even moreso after reading your writings. I just began thinking of how he must’ve realized that even the Judaizers who persecuted himself and his churches were originally strengthened and partially spawned by his earliest behavior. What grief that must have brought him, what a daily reminder of his utter lack of human holiness and utter dependence upon the grace of God. How amazingly wise our Lord was for choosing him.

#5

Well said, Justin. That adds a new contextual flavor to Rom 11 (and preceding chapters) regarding Paul’s hope for those of Israel who still were stumbling over the cornerstone–but not stumbling so as to fall. “May it never be!” :slight_smile:

#6

Sherman

Unbelief done in ignorance is not the unforgivable sin issue here. All sin and blasphemies… none of them are beyond the scope of God’s divine forgiveness if one truly repents of them. But Jesus distinctively separates the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit from all other sins and blasphemies.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is an extreme, and at the same time settled, condition of the heart and mind that may well manifest itself in various attitudes and actions in one’s daily life in willful and knowing opposition to God’s Spirit of grace. It is “a state of hardness of the heart in which one consciously and willfully resists or renounces God’s saving power and grace” (Holman Bible Dictionary, p. 198). To again quote the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Jesus is “not speaking of an isolated act, but a settled condition of the soul” (vol. 8, p. 645). Dr. Gerhard Kittel, in his classic Theological Dictionary of the NT, said, “It denotes the conscious and wicked rejection of the saving power and grace of God towards man. Only the man who sets himself against forgiveness is excluded from it” (vol. 1, p. 624).

#7

Exactly! I was especially thinking of his wish that he could be cut off from Christ for their sake, because he could associate so well with them. We forget about how much his former life affected things along with his own outlook because we’re so well acquainted instead with the epic life he lived for God.

#8

Aaron37,

Paul notes that he was a blasphemer, the worst of sinners, even persecuting the church. He witnessed Stephen being martyred, rejected the Gospel on untold numerous occasions as believer after believer shared with him their testimony. He even rejected the wise advise of Gamaliel to leave the Christians alone. And of course he did it in ignorance and unbelief. If he had faith in God he would not have done it. Concerning his “ignorance”, he was trained in scripture from childhood, so it was not an “ignorance” of scripture. He even heard the gospel from Stephen and others, so that was no excuse. His problem was stubborness, pride, and selfrighteousness which are stupid, ignorant. So let us not lightly dismiss his confession of being a blasphemer for he evidenced resisting the Holy Spirit at every turn, until the Lord finally had enough of his foolishness and stepped in with some heavy judgment and remedial punishment, changing him at the core of his being.

Also, let’s not forget that he said he was the “worst of all sinners” or the “chiefest of sinners”; on the sin-scale he was the worst, a “10” on a scale of 0-10, none worse than him. Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, righteous to the extreme in his own mind, and yet wicked to the core. You know, the people that Jesus warned of concerning blaspheming were the Pharisees; and Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees! His list of self-righteous attributes knew no end, and yet he was mean to the core.

Yes, God has mercy on us in our ignorance and unbelief, mercy on all of us!

#9

I relate closely to Paul for I was once a very exclusive, negative, judgmental person. I didn’t know for sure I was saved, but I sure knew everyone else wasn’t. I was consumed with pride and self-righteousness to the point that one day as I was reading the 7 Woes in Mt.23, the Lord judged me saying, “That’s the way you are!”, laying bare the pride and self-righteousness of my own heart. I saw the ugliness of my own soul and it broke me. I cried for two weeks. My family was concerned that I had lost my mind. In that briefest of moments, the Lord shined light on my filthy soul and it, well, burnt the hell out of me. Brokeness, weeping, gnashing of teeth was my lot. It was a terrible experience, but it was also a very liberating experience for it freed me from self-deception, and freed me to walk in His light, love, and acceptance. Like Paul, I had an Intervention of God in my life that forever changed me.

As I said, I relate closely to Paul and understand what he meant by being a blasphemer, for I was one too and yet God saved me. I was hardened by tradition, pride, and self-righteousness, hardened against God and the Word, hardened by tradition, hardened by pride, hardened by self-righteousness. And yet God saved me! His judgment saved me! I thus do not think that I am any better than anyone else; rather, I recognize that “But for the grace of God revealed to me and in me, there go I - whether it’s Hitler, Bundy, or my neighbor who’s caught in…whatever!”

#10

That was a great testimony, Sherman–thanks! :smiley:

I have tried to fix the coloring code in your original post, btw. I think you were wanting the “every patience” of Jesus Christ to be in a different color than your normal citation blue, for special emphasis, right?

(I tried several shades of royal purple or gold, but it didn’t look right on the background. Does the current white work well? Looking it over again, I’m a bit iffy about that choice… sorry. I can try something else.)

#11

Thanks Jason,

The white was difficult to read so I just underlined it. Thanks. And I’m glad the testimony was encouraging. God showing me the depth of my wickedness was actually the result of prayer. I was reading the story of the woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. And read where Jesus said, “those who have been forgiven much, love much.”

I had been raised in church and thought pretty highly of myself. I “loved” the Lord but I recognized that I had never come close to having this passion for the Lord. So I said, “Lord, I want to love you more, but I haven’t lived the kind of life this woman did. I don’t think I should go out and sin so that I can be forgiven more; that just doesn’t make sense. So I don’t know what to do except ask your help with this.”

Over the next four years, I had a few encounters with the judgment of the Lord that completely undid me. I finally came to realize that there was nothing about me that was pure or holy. Every aspect of my soul was polluted by my selfishness, my dead flesh; and it stunk to high-heaven. The ungliness of my soul, the core of my being was so bad that if not for the grace of God I’d have gone stark raving mad, consumed by remorse and regret.

But thanks be to God, the Light also revealed God’s love, mercy, forgiveness, and acceptance. His Judgment was truly Remedial! Not only did He love me, but it was His grace that saved me. I didn’t have the sense to choose Him, He chose me and revealed Himself to me. He drew me by His Spirit though I resisted Him at every turn.

These encounters with God’s judgment were terrible, but they worked in me some powerful good, a passionate love for God and others that I never before even dreamed existed, a passion for His Word, and a passion for His Spirit that is like a fire shut up in my bones that is often expressed in radical open praise and worship, dancing, jumping, shouting, rejoicing in God whom I love. And it is a fire that spreads to others, especially young adults. Though others ridicule me and say all manner of evil against me falsely, I still press into the One whom I love.

A true message of God’s judgment needs to be taught in the church. And I’m always amazed at how traditionalists hold tightly to Endless Damnation for OTHERS, but refuse to even consider that they will face the terrible judgment of God and their lives will be judged for what they did, how they lived, not just whether or not they have faith in Christ! So it’s Damnation for others, but no-worries for me! And yet scripture after scripture affirms not only Universal Salvation, but also UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT! We shall all be judged. Yes it is founded in love and acceptance, but it is also terrible, undooing a person at the core of their being, revealing the utter wickedness of their souls, so that they might repent and be healed. The first step of deliverance is recongizing one is in bondage. The first step towards healing is recogninzing that one is sick.

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#12

What an amazing testimony of His love and grace, thanks for sharing! It’s extremely joyful to see a “wild sinner” come to know Jesus, but perhaps in another sense it’s awe-inspiring to see a religious zealot come to really know Jesus. What’s really amazing is that we all fall short and need His grace.

I have similar stories of how I “came to judgment.” It was within a relatively short period of time and happened to occur several months after I’d been reading on spiritual desolation and restoration. Madame Guyon wrote that for some this process of desolation happens very gradually and for others it happens suddenly and fiercely. I think I was one of the ones for whom it happened very suddenly and fiercely and it even manifested in strong physical sensations. But that’s when I really knew what it meant to repent, and that repentance can only ever be a gift from God. I realized that up until then I had only “repented” in order to feel good, and all my sins crowded on top of me and pretty much buried me. I began literally choking and finding it hard to breathe.

Thankfully, at the bottom of that pit I found the Lord standing there just like He had always eternally been. With that revelation I was able to get up and begin making restitution with others. After that I’ve never been the same. Nothing can shake me like that did. I can’t even rustle up any feelings of bitterness toward anyone if I tried. It’s all too easy for me to just love people instead.

“Life is not as idle ore,
But iron dug from central gloom,
And battered by the shocks of doom
To shape and use.”
~Oswald Chambers

#13

By far the best thread here in several days (at least), I’d say! :smiley: Good job, guys, and thanks!

#14

LOL…of course it is, Jason. I say this post below in this thread is by far the best post in several days ( at least), I’d say! Good job, Aaron, and thanks for challenging our false hope of UR. Thank you, Jason. :laughing:

#15

The sad truth is that we don’t see our own pride, and can’t, because we’re too filled up with it to see it. To see it for what it is, is for it to be deflated at the same time. What a paradox.

Thanks, Jason! I’d be happy to post more sometime (when I have a bit more time). :smiley:

#16

One of the differences between us, Aaron, is that I was willing to include your post as part of the whole thread without excepting it, even though I disagreed with your intention in it; whereas, you could only think in terms of magnifying yourself in your own eyes without regard to things going on in this thread that even a non-universalist ought to be able to appreciate.

One type of behavior is what the creators of this forum want to foster and protect. The other is not, but is only tolerated for a while out of mercy to the one who does it.

#17

Relax, I was only kiddin around. Do the creators of this forum foster and protect ones right to privacy? When it is violated, does it tolerate rate it out of mercy to the one who violates it or because they are a part of leadership? Just askin.

#18

Privacy on the net is one of those issues currently being hotly debated. That’s the thing, there are no set standards on it. Have you seen any set standards on it at this forum, Aaron?

#19

They warn even admins who do it, and promptly act to protect that privacy again. They might be inclined to be tolerant otherwise, if it was done to help protect someone from false charges.

The creators of this forum even tolerate people who continually spit on those who go very far out of their way to protect such people from false charges–for a while.

Do you have an example in mind? Because I sure do.

#20

Sherman,
The problem I have is that you seem to say that Paul’s situation disproves the idea of an unforgivable sin, but then you don’t exegete the Gospel passages. HUH? The passage still needs to be explained :cry:
roo