The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Valentine for Children of Wrath

As St. Valentine’s Day approaches again, as always this time of year my thoughts return to my most beloved under God; who, the last time I checked, was not yet a Christian and who was barely even a theist.

Does that mean she is one of the children of wrath? Knowing her as I do, I have a hard time believing that she is a (baby!) goat and not one of the sheep. But a Calvinist would say that I cannot be sure she is not after all one of the children of wrath; and many Calvinists would say that God has no saving love for the children of wrath, or even not any real love for such children at all–at most, only an incidental side effect of giving loving provisions for His own elect children, raining the weeds along with the weed, and loathe to uproot the weeds outright at risk of harming His chosen wheat.

But supposing for sake of argument it was revealed that my beloved was indeed (along with her husband perhaps!) among the children of wrath.

Would I have no hope for her, or for them?–that God would never save them from their sins?

Paul, to the Christian congregation in Colossae, writes, “Although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, in evil deeds, yet He [the Son, having made peace through the blood of His cross] has now reconciled you in His fleshly body, through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.” (Col 1:21-22; with the provision of course that we indeed continue in faith, firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that we have heard and which is proclaimed in all creation under heaven.)

But when we ourselves were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, in evil deeds, were we the children of wrath? Or not?

And again St. Paul, to the Christian congregation in Rome, exhort them: “For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in (or by) His life!” (Rom 5:10)

But when we ourselves were enemies, and still helpless, and ungodly, and were yet sinners, and Christ came to die for us, were we the children of wrath? Or not?

To his Christian congregation in Ephesus, Paul repeats his theme again: “Now, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is working now in the sons of disobedience. Among them, we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with (or in) Christ!–by grace, you have been saved!–and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might demonstrate the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Jesus Christ!” (Eph 2:1-7)

But when we ourselves all were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenant of promise, having no hope and without God in the world, dead in our transgressions and sins, walking according to the prince of the power of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, and were by nature children of wrath even as all the rest–were we the children of wrath? Or not?!

(This is in fact the only time the phrase occurs in all the Bible. But notice that “sons of disobedience”, which occurs a little more often, are here equivocated with the “children of wrath”. There is no separate classification. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.)

My beloved one, whether a sheep or whether a (baby!) goat, is no more, and no less, one of the children of wrath than I have been; and I am a witness, along with Saint Paul, the man who regarded himself as the chief of sinners, that God does love the children of wrath after all, the sons (and daughters) of disobedience, and acts to save us from our sins, as heavy or as light as they may be.

My hope for her, in God, is no less than my hope for myself, in God.

God’s love to you, my most beloved, and to all the ones you love: tomorrow and every day to come.

(For as long as it is called Today!)

Jason

You dear man, grace and peace and blessings to you and your beloved.

It is a deceptively complex question you pose. Hence my initial response will inevitably be all-too shallow. But nevertheless -

To me it is one of the myriad incoherences and illogicalities of Calvinism that the so-called ‘children of wrath’ must, under that theology, always *have *been so and always shall remain so. It is simply semantic prestidigitation to try and make a distinction between being a vessel or wrath one moment and one of the elect the next. The thing, it seems to me, was fixed from all eternity. Thus there was never a moment, not even before he was born, that Paul was ever actually a child of wrath - he always was elect.

Calvinism simply renders nonsensical the explicit Pauline teaching of people being ‘formerly’ something and ‘now’ something else.

At least that’s how I see it. :slight_smile:

Shalom

Johnny

Johnny,

I am quite sure that a Calvinist could say that all men are children of wrath, and that God does choose to love some of the children of wrath with saving love, and still be thereby coherent (so far as that goes). Such a Calvinist could even agree with St. Paul that those who are now Christians were children of wrath and yet also were at the same time God’s own inheriting children from the beginning, under rebel tutors and so misled and mistaught; consequently that there are others still among the children of wrath who are also at the same time God’s elected children by nature, whom God intends to bring to maturity and free them from the rebel tutors, to be given the rights of adult children in the family (following Paul’s analogy of the paterfamilias and the adoption or ‘son-placement’ of natural children into rights and responsibilities of mature children.)

Such Calvinists wouldn’t be able to coherently say that God does not love any of the children of wrath, especially with saving love; that phrase, and “sons of disobedience”, would be useless to them for that purpose. They would have to come up with some other term or phrase, or else go against Saint Paul. But they could believe and teach such things while maintaining that God loves only some of the children of wrath with saving love, creating only some of them as natural children, too, while creating other persons to be only children of wrath and not ever children of the inheritance.

Or rather, such Calvinists would have to drop reference to “children of the inheritance”, or else qualify it better, I guess!–since Paul says we also were not once children of the inheritance somehow. :wink: But I can see some ways that the phrase could be qualified: in one sense, the sense that most importantly matters, the elect are really children of the inheritance, but while still in rebellion they have not yet received the inheritance. They have no hope in the world, but do have hope in God. St. Paul would certainly agree that those he was speaking to, who had no hope in the world, had hope in God after all!–and I don’t believe any Calvinist would disagree with that.

So I think there are ways for a Calvinist to still make a Calvinistic useage of the terms involved here. But I know there are many who have been (somewhat sloppily) taught that God does not love any of the children of wrath / sons of disobedience with saving love (or even at all).

A Calvinist who agrees with me and St. Paul on this, might be willing to allow that we will learn someday if there is hope in God for my beloved after all.

Not that there might be hope for here–there either is or isn’t, if Calvinism is true. We just couldn’t know and trust in God for sure that there is hope (much less the greatest of all hopes) in God for her (and for her own beloveds. And for her enemies, too, for that matter. :smiley: )

my beloved is also not a Christian (not remotely a theist, either).
thankfully i’ve never believed in “set in stone” reprobation, and have every confidence that the God that drew me can and will draw her.
God’s wrath, i argue, is always remedial, and therefore a child of wrath is just a child that deserves a spanking. once that’s over, the relationship is restored.

God LOVES all of us … with the death of the “old man” (child of wrath) He Will create the “new man”!!!

That’s a good way to look at it, although I suspect the cultural reference is more like “people who are dedicated to being wrathful”!–which is certainly what the phrase “sons/children of X” usually means in other NT and OT references. The most relevant comparison might be the synonym “children of disobedience” itself!

sounds right, but i still think a good spanking will drive out that disobedience and result in a happier family! so it kinda still works :laughing:

Don’t want to get too caught up in this thread, but whenever people speak of their loved ones not yet being saved, my heart breaks for them. I empathize. I will not go into theology here given the sensitive nature of this topic. I’ve skimmed through the posts and what comes to mind is hope. I understand the natural response of fatalism i.e. what’s the point if someone is non-elect? We do not possess that knowledge, only the LORD does. In Covenant Theology their is a great emphasis placed on the family (our natural family). The promises were made to you AND your children. This is general wisdom but does not guarantee their salvation, but provides far more hope than a completely non-believing family would have. The LORD has ordained the proclamation of the good news as a MEANS to which He draws sinful people to Himself. We are very right to look at ourselves and the various people in the Bible and believe that if we and they are / were saved, then the LORD may work a mighty work in the hearts of our as-of-now-lost-loved ones. FWIW, I’m very theologically comfortable believing all children / babies (I don’t believe in an age of accountability, however) can be or are saved. I presume upon God’s grace in that regard. To look at someone who is currently a non-believer and to declare them a permanent reprobate I believe is to blaspheme. This I why I take issue with some of the prevailing attitudes on these forums who mock Calvinists and blatantly say that what we do doesn’t matter.
Jason, I don’t know the details of your beloved, and forgive me if this sounds cheesy or offensive…but could you maybe encourage them to listen to Ravi Zacharias? He’s a wonderful apologist, very tender and pastoral and much to my chagrin…not a Calvinist…yet :sunglasses:
Sometimes the people in our lives are willing to listen to others, rather than ourselves. Oh well, as long as they listen. Anyway, I’ve read into some your post, forgive me if I’ve intruded or have been too presumptuous, hopefully you know that wasn’t my intent.
Matt

Matt,

I very much appreciate your comments and the spirit you gave them in! :smiley:

She would probably say that she doesn’t expect there is anything she can get from other apologists that she doesn’t already get from me; and that she would rather read me (someone she personally knows) than someone she doesn’t personally know. That’s from my personal experience with her–she doesn’t actually like reading Christian apologists. She prefers to listen to her Christian friends. (I’m one of several.) The fact that she seriously appreciates and values my talents at metaphysics depends first and entirely on my having been one of her best friends. Of course, she has a bunch of other friends who aren’t Christian, and she appreciatively listens to them, too. :slight_smile: (Which I try to be fairly okay with.) One reason she prefers to remain positively agnostic, aside from not feeling like she has the competency to decide clearly between us, is that she doesn’t want to choose between her friends.

Whatever respect she has for Christian belief is due to her Christian friends. She would think someone like RZ is a step backward. (Besides, she knows I write thousands and thousands of pages of Christian apologetics, at levels of detail that already exceed her interest and capabilities, as well as more poetic things that she’s naturally more interested in. It isn’t like I haven’t occasionally pointed her toward some other authors, like Lewis. She also knows most or all of what I write, is because I personally love her. That isn’t something she can get from another author at all. :slight_smile: )

Anyway, I don’t want to talk about her too much, for reasons of her privacy. I mention her on rare occasion for special emphasis, but I doubt she appreciates more than a very little of that. :wink: (And even then I would expect she’s primarily being gracious to me about appreciating even a small reference to her. :sunglasses: )

I can absolutely guarantee she herself would rather we go into theology than to keep talking about her. :laughing: And I would, too, although I think it’s important to keep real people in mind, because real people (especially God, in all Three Persons!) are the topics of theology.

So for example:

I understand that if Calv non-election is true, since we ourselves don’t know who is and who isn’t elect and non-elect then we ought to evangelize everyone. But this has nothing really to do with hoping for the salvation of sinners from sin. It’s an evangelism in disconnection from hope.

If we ourselves don’t know who is and who isn’t intended by God to be saved from their sins, then our hope for anyone’s salvation is at best only a feeling of ours, which may or may not have some correspondence with actual reality: God’s choice for some people to have the capability of being saved from their sins, and God’s choice for some people to never have that capability. My hope for my beloved could not actually be rationally grounded in God; at best my hope would be an emotional feeling that might or might not correspond to what God has chosen regarding her salvation from sin.

Covenant Theology doesn’t really change that technical issue (I won’t call it a problem because for Calvs it isn’t a technical problem, but at most only an emotional difficulty), unless it involves a guarantee that our loved ones are also chosen by God for salvation from their sins. But you yourself believe it involves no such guarantee (only a stronger suspicion in favor of them being saved maybe).

That’s consonant with Calv soteriology broadly speaking compared to Arm or Kath soteriologies (and variants). If God guaranteed that He intended to save from sin the people we love, a Calvinist could only remain a Calvinist and not shift to being a universalist by denying we’re supposed to love everyone. I think there are some Calvs who go this route, but then it becomes a question of who we’re supposed to properly love or not (over against scriptures apparently indicating we’re actually supposed to love everyone), and the only answer can be ‘those whom God has chosen to save from sin or has chosen not to save from sin (respectively)’. Which is unknowable by us at this time. And so ends the practical solace and the practical hope.

(This is aside from those Calvinists who think they’ve figured out how to tell for sure if someone is elect or non-elect–a topic of natural importance for Calvinists, at least in regard to identifying the elect, since one of the main selling points of Calv vs. Arm soteriology is a stronger assurance of salvation. But that assurance only has personal value if we can be sure that we are of the elect and not of those non-elect who think they are of the elect but were never chosen by God to be saved from their sins, and so were infallibly deceived about their own election, having been given no way in this life to tell for sure that they were not elect instead of elect. Jonathan Edwards is a notorious example of someone who thought he could figure out who the non-elect are, and so who we aren’t supposed to love more than in some incidental fashion–and who proceeded to put his precepts into practice, specifically in regard to people whom he had been previously teaching to consider themselves assuredly among the elect! But clearly you aren’t that variety of Calvinist–at least in regard to identifying the non-elect.)

I expect the particular contravening example you had in mind was Abraham’s family: you don’t think God ever has chosen to even try saving all of Israel in terms of Abraham’s family from their sins. (The distinction no doubt being that not all Israel is Israel of the flesh and vice versa.) I think technically a Calvinist could agree that God really intends to save all of Abraham’s natural family from their sins, as part of God’s covenant with Abraham, and so will get it done, even post-mortem where necessary; but that would open several cans of worms. For only one example, what about verses apparently indicating some of Israel according to the flesh will not be saved?–and if there are legitimate ways to better interpret those verses, why wouldn’t those interpretations work for Gentiles, too?

So I can understand why most Calvinists (across different variants) don’t believe the family covenant involves this. Yet you yourself seem to recognize that there is some seriously real strength to apparent promises along this line, or you wouldn’t have brought up the topic in context of the salvation of our loved ones, such that Covenant Theology provides at least a little more emotional solace that God has also chosen to save our loved ones from sin.

Only in the most trivially emotional sense of the word ‘hope’. My hope for my beloved is infinitely stronger than that (if Christian universalism is true).

This is aside from the fact that by the terms you’ve specifically mentioned, Covenant Theology has nothing to say about those we love who are not our spouse or physically related to us. That means CT, so far as you’ve talked about it, has not even a disconnected emotional hope to offer for my beloved–not unless she is the family, or is married to, someone who turns out to be one of the elect. Whoever they may be.

So as a practical example, I know her grandparents insisted on church, but who knows whether they were of the elect? She herself doesn’t think her parents are more than slight cultural Christians; I don’t know about her brother; she married a man whose parents are outright apostate cultural Catholics and who only had him baptized because his grandfather called from Eastern Europe to insist on it–but who knows whether his grandfather was elect. Or whether she would be grandfathered in, so to speak. But even if she was, there would be no real assurance from that route–because ultimately Calvinistic soteriology isn’t about God keeping covenants to families. It’s about whether He chooses to make a saving covenant with a person in regard to that person him-or-herself. Not in regard to their family or in regard to those they love.

That’s why even if I happened to know (per impossibility?) that I was of the elect, or that her mother was of the elect, or that her husband was of the elect, none of those things matter a single solitary jot in regard to her salvation if Calvinistic soteriology is true.

That’s why, even though I know you meant well by it, I know better than to think Covenant Theology offers any more hope for the people I love (especially if they are not even of my family), if Calvinism is true. Any emotional improvement from that would be, at best, an illusion that somewhat incidentally happens to correspond to reality. They have hope in God, or they do not, the end, period–and I would have no way to tell for sure this side of judgment. And once I know for sure in the judgment, then any ultimately misplaced hope for people who turned out to be non-elected by God, would be revealed as not only ungrounded after all but dashed forever. Hopefully (???) to be replaced by something better than hope for their salvation from sin and reconciliation to God, something better than hope for their becoming doers of righteousness instead of doers of injustice (or perhaps annihilated out of existence). Whatever better than that hope might be.

But only if He has chosen to grant them the capability to be drawn to Himself. The gospel is a means to this only for the elect.

We could technically believe that He might have chosen to do so (and that He has certainly chosen either to do or not to do so). But not that He may eventually choose to do so if He hasn’t done so yet (as an Arminian might hope). And not that He certainly has chosen and will choose to do so (as a Universalist would hope). Unless we know for sure that someone is of the elect, we can have no grounded hope for them if Calvinism is true.

That they are elected, you mean. All babies grow up eventually, or die as babies, so in fact if Calvinism is true not all babies/children can be saved. But if they die early that would be sure and certain evidence they were of the elect. (How early, with no age of accountability?..who knows. Before they have developed any rational faculties I guess.)

Not sure I’ve ever heard a Calvinist per se distinguish between permanent and temporary reprobates per se, but it’s a flexible term so I suppose that isn’t impossible. Anyway, it’s blasphemy only to do so if we don’t already know they are of the non-elect–it wouldn’t be blasphemy in the eschaton. But then, by the same principle, if (before the eschaton) we look at someone who currently seems to be a believer and declare them one of the elect…?

It doesn’t matter to the non-elect. I understand that if we don’t know then we might as well try, and of course it matters to the elect. But not to the non-elect. God hasn’t chosen to allow it to matter to the non-elect–not in any way that involves them becoming doers of righteousness and saved from their sins.

Which means we really can’t know whether it matters or not to anyone this side of the eschaton. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn’t. For all we know it could matter, so for all we know we might as well try, but it really only matters for the elect, if Calvinism is true.

But it really and certainly matters for every sinner if Universalism is true. And won’t ever stop mattering.

Calvs and Kaths can both say with St. Paul, “Now thanks be to God Who is giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! So become settled, unmoving, superabounding in the work of the Lord always, being aware that your toil is not for nothing in the Lord.” Which is something no Arminian can consistently say about our evangelical work. But if universalism is true we can say this about all sinners. Not only some. If Calvinism is true, my toil for the salvation of someone who turns out to be non-elect will be for nothing, because God authoritatively chose that it would always be for nothing. It would literally be for nothing in the Lord.

(My toil might be for other purposes, of course, and so not for nothing in those regards. But it would be for nothing in regard to my intention that they would be led to God to be saved from their sins. Maybe I’m not supposed to have that intention for anyone in my evangelism!–no intention for anyone to be saved, so no failure if someone isn’t saved! But if Universalism is true, I’m supposed to have that intention for everyone in my evangelism.)

Meanwhile, out of curiosity: do you think God loves any children of wrath with saving love? Or not?

Let me clarify that I don’t think anything I talked about in this thread (so far as I went) involves a logical incoherence in Calv soteriology per se. I have much larger problems with Calvinistic soteriologies than any of this. :slight_smile: At most I’m only talking about an adjustment of my emotions and expectations that would be necessary to fit the logical implications and limitations of Calv soteriology. That could be annoying (any emotional adjustment usually is!), but I would just have to lump it whether I liked it or not.

(One of the things I respect about Calvs and Arms is that they often sacrifice their emotions self-critically to accept what they believe to be true, so as not to be led astray by their personal preferences which might be corrupted. Calvs traditionally tend to be more gung-ho about this, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Especially if Calvinism is true. :slight_smile: )

Jaxxen posted a reply to this thread in a different thread (here), which for topicality sake I’ll repost here.

Not really, no. I mean, I could quote you from a thread prior to this one, where you referenced the children of wrath, and seemed to be saying that God loves none of the children of wrath; but I can’t tell from your reply whether you actually meant what you said in that thread, or whether you’ve changed your mind (at least in regard to accurate terminology) slightly on that, and if so whether having St. Paul testify that everyone starts off as children of wrath made any difference to you.