The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Welcome Jaxxen & Thoughts On The Relevance Of Our Feelings

As per request from Cindy Skillman, I’m posting this as the start of a separate thread. :slight_smile:
I originally posted this today as my welcome to Jaxxen, our newest resident Calvinist, who I admire and respect already, because of his intelligence and his tender heart. :slight_smile:

Well, here’s the post :slight_smile:

Perhaps here in this thread we could discuss how our emotions, especially our deepest and our most heartfelt longings, can be relevant to our journey of faith, and even to our relationship with God, and in particular if there is in fact something to be said about how there have been many (including myself and many of us here) throughout history who have been deeply troubled by the doctrine of everlasting hell, and many who have wanted universal reconciliation to be true.
Could there be something to that?

If you’re reading this Jaxxen, feel free to comment. :slight_smile: And again, welcome. :slight_smile:

And if anyone else would like to comment (i.e. Cindy), feel free to share. :slight_smile:

Blessings to you all :slight_smile:

Matt

Oops! Misread the title - thought it was the relevance of emoticons :wink:

:laughing: :smiley:

There, I adjusted the title, now no one else can misread it :wink:

While I don’t discount my feelings (obviously), I myself didn’t arrive at Christian universalism by dint of my emotions. After all, my emotions happen to run quite strongly toward zorching my enemies (…um, I mean God’s enemies :mrgreen:), crushing them down and annihilating them. And I don’t mean annihilating them out of mercy, I mean annihilating them so that I never have to bother with them again.

Based on my internal assessments of mere feelings, I ought to have been a Calvinistic annihilationist. The entertainment I most enjoy is practically predicated on the concept that the enemy is my enemy and only ever will be by enemy and was designed from the outset to be my enemy, and is there for me to utterly destroy for the sake of ‘justice’ (whether my own ‘justice’ or in service to higher ‘justice’ if the higher justice allows me to war against my enemies to their deaths.)

I can’t say I would mind if my enemies (…I mean God’s enemies!) suffered conscious torment eternally either, so long as they didn’t bother me anymore and I didn’t have to bother with them anymore (unless I wanted to set them up for zorching again, for my own entertainment).

I’m not saying this is what Calvinism most properly entails (anni or ECT either one); I’m only saying that if I was primarily following my emotions, I can see that I would have ended up there. Not at universalism.

Following my emotions for the few unbelievers I happen to feel strong positive emotions in favor of, would have at most landed me at Lewis’ Arminianism (which was in fact where I was for most of my life up until early 2000). Surely they (the unbelievers I cared about) would be saved, or at least I could have some good hope for that; but those other treacherous unbelievers over there would not–those traitors! And especially the unbelievers whose actions directly impact against my own happiness.

I’m not even sure the unbeliever I happen to love the most would have wanted me to be a universalist if I’m going to be a Christian; and most certainly I feel the most unforgivingly zorchy against anyone who threatens or damages her.

On the other hand, after becoming a Christian universalist, my beloved indicated she thought that I was a real, live Christian. So I guess she prefers me that way after all. :slight_smile: But that was afterward–I didn’t become one because I thought she’d approve of it. (Although I have to admit I have an emotional inclination to stay one because I think she approves of it.)

I became one as a Christian apologist studying and testing the coherency of trinitarian theology, and of scriptural exegetics. It was my validation of ortho-trin theology that led me to expect God to persist in saving all sinners from sin; and it was my increasing study of the scriptures that confirmed to me that God will eventually be victorious in doing so.

I have strong emotional responses to all that; but they’re responses to that–not what predicates all that. When I started writing my Sword to the Heart study in late 99, I had about as much emotions in favor of universalism as a bull would have of moldy cheese, and even less knowledge of Christian universalism at all. Several months later in early 00, I was surprised to find I had added up to trinitarian Christian universalism. And I was even more surprised to find out I was happy about it! No doubt some of that had to do with loving my beloved (although at the time I didn’t even consciously know that I loved her), and so being emotionally relieved that my hope for her was sure and certain thanks to God.

But most of my happiness was due to having come to understand justice very much better, thanks to understanding the Trinity very much better. Anyone who has rejoiced at seeing more truth than before, and at seeing even more goodness in the truth than before (including Arms and Calvs, perhaps even converting from one to the other), should be able to understand and sympathize with that feeling in principle. But those feelings are results of coming to understand more goodness than we did before; they don’t (usually) lead us to it.

I’m not saying it’s impossible for God to lead us to truth by our feelings, too, of course. And I’m certainly not saying that God must always be Who is leading us by our feelings.

I’m only saying that I wasn’t led by my feelings to be a Christian universalist, even though I have strong feelings in favor of it now as a result of having arrived here.

Also, I should clarify that I don’t blame Calvs or Arms–or anyone else!–for being suspicious about feelings leading people to believe various things. :slight_smile:

I do somewhat blame Calvs and Arms (and anyone else) for asserting without even knowing me that my feelings have led me to be a universalist (as atheists sometimes assert I am a supernaturalistic trinitarian Christian theist only because of my feelings.) But I don’t blame them for appealing to the concept. (Nor am I saying Matt/Jaxxen asserted this about me personally, because he hasn’t. :slight_smile: )

I do very much blame Calvs and Arms (and anyone else) if they continue to assert such things about me in the face of what should, on any sober and fair analysis, be plenty of evidence otherwise. But that’s a whole other problem. :wink:

Oh my goodness! Jeff, you are soooo funny! This applies to me, of course, though I usually manage to pull back my lavish brush from the emoticon palette before it’s entirely too late (although with great difficulty). :laughing:

Thank you, thank you for a much needed laugh, dear Brother.

Cindy

Oh yes, and you, too, Jason, are cheering me with guffaws. Maybe it’s a statement on God’s mercy toward me, knowing my needs, but I find your rhetoric hilarious. I could not be more unlike you, Brother. It seems I have recently acquired a genuine enemy for the first time in my life, and though I’m baffled as to why he hates me, I have no desire to zorch him. (love that word!) My sweet DH feels differently, and so I think I do understand where you’re coming from, because of my knowing him.

But I am just not the “zorchy” type. I would rather heal this person, but that is for God to do. Anyway . . .

Thanks, Matthew, for posting this topic!

You know, the thing that gets me is that people somehow feel that intellect is superior to emotions, as if those two are very different choices, and they are the ONLY choices. In truth, IMO, they are both branches of the same tree – the WRONG tree. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the tree of self-reliance; of the flesh; of natural power; of death, and not the good kind of death, either.

Intellect and emotion are alike tools of expression and exploration of the physical realms. They are good things, but they are not THE things. We are spiritual beings, and God intended for us to live by the direction and intimacy of His Spirit indwelling, intermingled, and inseparably united with our human spirits.

The picture that comes to mind is (I’m sorry) from The Labyrinth. In one scene, there’s a little goblin sitting in the control seat of a huge, scary warrior robot. He isn’t the robot and the robot’s faculties aren’t him, but he has control of them and uses them. That’s us and the flesh.

Now I’m not saying that we’re separate from our bodies. I believe that we are an integrated whole. But the body is designed as a mode of expression for the spirit. The intellect is part of the body and is to be the servant of the spirit. The emotions are likewise to be servants to the spirit. And of course the musculo-skeletal system and all other parts of the body are to be servants of the spirit.

When we allow any part of the physical body; intellect, emotions, physicality; to direct our actions independent of the spirit, then we are out of balance. Badly.

This can manifest itself in complex intellectualism, mindless emotionalism, out of control physical gratification, or one may be a ‘well-balanced’ individual who keeps the three in tune with one another (and still fails to submit them all to the spirit, which must be directed aright by the Spirit of Christ who dwells in us.) None of these is a good option, and certainly not a good option for the follower of Christ.

Many people seem to have the idea that “the flesh” consists of the emotions and the physical body. They seem to see the intellectual capacity as somehow a separate thing – as if the intellect = the spirit. This is absolutely NOT the case. The brain; the intellect, that is; is also part of the physical body. The intellect is NOT the spirit. Intellect is every bit as much a physical function as the emotions (also contained within and regulated by the brain) and the physical being (largely also maintained and controlled by the brain).

Now some of us are controlled more by emotions than by intellect, but all of us must learn to take our direction from the Spirit, for whom the entire body was made. Christ is OUR head and also MY head, and that word can be translated equally as boss/leader, or as source. I believe that both interpretations apply, though I’m told the latter is more in keeping with the way it would have been understood by the 1st century middle eastern world.

Christ is our source. We flow from Him as a river flows from its headwaters. So emotions are good and neither better nor worse than intellect. Emotions out of the control of the spirit/Spirit are a problem. Intellect is subject to the same conditions, as is of course physicality.

I feel I’m a fairly balanced person between intellect and emotions while a bit weak on the physicality side (working on it). But if all these faculties are not subject to His Spirit in mine, they’re all alike inadequate and are being misused. It bothers me when someone accuses another one of relying on emotion rather than intellect (as though those are the only two possible sources for the human to flow from). Either would be WRONG. It is the SPIRIT we are to rely on; primarily the Spirit of God and that through the human spirit which He indwells.

While the reasons I came to UR include both intellectual and emotional, it was actually the Spirit who brought me here. I had to have my intellect satisfied before I could come (my emotions weren’t a problem), and I think that’s right. God does give us all these faculties to serve the spirit; to help us to assess whether this or that is a thing that our spirits should regard as truth, but ultimately we need to receive the guidance of the Spirit of Christ within us.

Okay . . . rant over . . . for the moment. :wink: Again, thanks Matthew, for posting this. :smiley:

Love, Cindy

Hey all, thank you for thinking of me and incorporating me (under the name of my beloved dog, Jackson R.I.P. :cry: ).
I’m sorry that I can’t respond to all of the individual posts. Some will understand, others will take it as a weakness. Oh well.
Re feelings and a coldness expressed by some Calvinists, I understand. As Calvinists, we feel completely bound by Sola Scriptura and that Calvinism represents Biblical teaching the best (granted, most of you here would dispute that, I know) so any type of antiCalvin sentiment is viewed as an attack on nothing less than the Word itself. We then respond like momma grizzlies :imp: . When I was transitioning to the Reformed Faith, it really did break me.
But why? Depends on how you look at it. Some might say that that was God’s way of telling me that Calvinism is wrong. Another way (the way I landed) was that I was far, far more sinful that what I’d previously imagined-and God was far, far more holy…therefore I had been in a doctrinal rebellion without even realizing it! Receiving Calvinism was a pruning, a refining fire, the mortification of self. YHWH was sovereign, Matt was not. It seems like a “well, duh” type of statement, but it crushed me. The potter had the right to work the clay as He saw fit. Even if it rubbed me terribly wrong. I saw my greatest sin as trying to be the one to say what the Bible meant, rather than allowing the Bible to say what it meant. Now, again I understand that all theological perspectives will make that claim. My thoughts at the time were that if Calvinism was the heresy that I wanted it to be, then I need to understand it and need not fear. IF, however, it was true (and I was kinda getting a sick feeling that it was), then I’d have to repent and take it as God’s word.
The problem with feelings is that they are fickle. Mine change according to various internal and external situations. Sure, I believe that the Spirit may lead us in a specific way that runs contrary to or supports our feelings, but ultimately Calvinists again are bound by the Scriptures. As I’ve mentioned before, reprobation is the main sticking point…or so it seems. I really believe the main sticking point is His sovereignty. BTW, I sooo appreciate Jason’s honesty in saying that he’d “zorch” people and why.
Speaking of honest feelings, you quoted Augustine and spoke of his sexual whoredom. You wanna know something? I’m jealous as hell! When I was first saved, one of my first thoughts were, “Damn, I wish I had laid more broads, it’s illegal now that I’m a Christian!” The war between the Spirit and the flesh was on! And for any of you ladies here that might be reading this, sorry about using the term “broad”. PM me and perhaps we could discuss it in person over breakfast :sunglasses:
Just kidding, just kidding. Let’s chalk my humor up to the “T” in TULIP. I’m happily engaged, BTW. And I have experienced sanctification. I DO believe in chastity, fidelity and the like.
But back to the coldness that some Calvinists exhibit…shame on them! I can understand that it’s easy to be mean and cold, but that doesn’t make it right. Believe me folks, I’ve read some things on this site from EU’s that could easily be construed as hateful and cold. Maybe that’s not how the posters intended it to come out, though. “Oh you who judge, are you not guilty of the very same things yourselves?” Anyways peeps, I’m going to bed. I look forward to continuing the discussions.
Also, forgive me if I come across as disjointed or too stream-of-conscious. My brain moves faster than my fingers! That’s about the only thing its faster than :confused:

Love,

Matt

great post, Matt. very honest and funny in relevant places!
relevant to this discussion, i can see that feelings may’ve played a part in your journey to Calvinism, just as they led some of us away from it. is it the Holy Spirit? i really believe the fruits are the important indicator. if Calvinism brought you to produce good fruit, then awesome! doesn’t mean i believe it’s necessarily true…just that it’s useful for the season you’re now in. and yes, this could be applied to EU and UR, etc.
funnily enough, i’ve always “erred” on the side of Scriptural inerrancy, though i think there are a number of problems with being too strict with that (Augustine and Calvin would both agree with me there).
i also feel that Scripture should interpret Scripture.
such is my understanding of “sola Scriptura”, so anyone can correct me if that’s not complete.
needless to say, my attempt to view Scripture unbiasedly led me to believe that God is SO GOOD, SO HOLY, SO POWERFUL and SO LOVING that He wants to save all, that He CAN save all, that He WILL save all. such will be His triumph AND His display of sovereignty AND His display of holiness.
i believe the meta-narrative of Scripture does promise nothing less than this. i am still led to believe i’m capable of great evil, but that that evil is no obstacle for God, whose sovereignty is unconquerable.
my feelings came after, but i confess that looking back, i’d always questioned whether the “all” meant “all”, whether the desire of God to let none perish was something He was capable of achieving…and i believe YES He is.

now for the coldness of EU people…well
let’s contrast a bit if you’ll indulge me.

Arminians/Calvinists:

  1. both say we are saved…one says it’s God’s choice, the other ours. but we both belong to a club
  2. both say those not in our club our damned.
  3. some of both are distressed by this, but not all…quite a few seem to believe quite happily in eternal torment for even their loved ones. afterall, they’ve HAD their chance.

EU/UR

  1. says all are saved, there is no exclusive club, no justification for a smug “us vs them” mentality
  2. gets really flipping angry on behalf of other Christians who aren’t given the chance to think for themselves, but are instead told what to think and what not to think.
  3. gets really flipping angry on behalf of those not yet believers, as those people are quite happily dismissed by wrongfully arrogant card carrying Christians of various stripes
  4. notices how such a club mentality is typical of pagan religions
  5. notices how the Apostles never showed that attitude, and also how the Jews were commanded to be a priesthood to the nations…not hold themselves aloof or get bogged down in idol worship as what actually happened.

IMO, and this is not meant to generalise against you, Jaxxen, as i can see you have a loving heart!!! but IMO, this indicates a general fruit of compassion on behalf of those led by the nose or dismissed to torment by EU/UR…

and a general lack of compassion towards people that simply disagree on a very limited interpretation of Scripture by Arminians and Calvinists.

so if some of us are cold and wrathful…it is towards enslaving doctrine and defense of those who are victimised by this.
when C/A (can’t be bothered to type that anymore lol) get angry, it’s because they feel they are “RIGHT!”
not because they believe we’re tampering with Scripture…but because we threaten their interpretation of what is a very complicated book

CL,

I’m going to pick up on your “interpretation of a very complicated book” theme because I feel it’s a KEY point. (Did I make that word exciting enough? :wink: ) ~~Oh, and btw, I’m not disagreeing with you, or even specifically addressing you, Bro. You just brought up a very salient point.

I believe in scriptural inerrancy, but who could ever believe in interpretational inerrancy? It’s practically an oxymoron. The thing is that, while intellect will lead us this way and that, in our interpretation of isolated passages, and emotionalism will also lead us this way and that (as Jason has pointed out re: his emotional response being different from others’), the Spirit will lead us aright.

The Spirit is present in each and all of us, as He also is in the WHOLE witness of scripture. But we have to draw back our intellectual and emotional attachments to various theories in order to hear Him correctly. We have to be OKAY with ANYTHING He says. Then, when we believe that we’ve gotten our old dead carcasses good and buried and out of the loop, and we believe we’ve heard from His Spirit, it’s time to put the auxiliary tools to work to analyze whether these things be true.

I’ve been studying scripture all my life (a regrettably long time stretching out into the past, as human time goes!) For nearly all my life I’ve believed (reluctantly) in ECT despite having noticed in many places inconsistencies which I should have questioned. The problem is that I’ve also been going to church, slurping up sermons (a confusing mix of unlabeled C & A) and believing what I was told despite what I had seen in the word.

Very little inter-believer discussion of these topics and less or no questioning of the authority figures we were cautioned not to touch. (And yes I also saw and ignored the unscriptural nature and illogicality and self-serving nature of this decree – and ignored it, thinking there must be something I was missing there, too.)

God actually DROVE me away (from Him, as I thought). For a time I was non- . . . well, just non. I wasn’t an unbeliever or an agnostic or an atheist or irreligious. I just backed off and quit and tried not to think about it. I felt very hurt by God’s “behavior,” or my perception of it, anyway, and I was done trying to understand Him.

Now that He has wooed me back to Himself, things have changed. I listen to Him first and foremost. I’m willing and I do listen to fellow believers and I judge and weigh their words and the spirit they show me. I listen to the word, but never to the word in isolation. I have the luxury of knowing the full word fairly well already by reason of my past study (though I understood it then through the filters given by my teachers). Now I see it in new light and am willing for God to point out inconsistencies with established doctrine. Now I can be corrected by people who are not standing behind a pulpit – if said people can establish that they’re in concert with the Spirit and the word – the whole word.

One day, the Spirit just grabbed me and shouted in my heart . . . “What if they’re right?” I realized suddenly that I had dismissed the Christian Universalists as cranks. I’d read long diatribes written by emotionally unstable people in defense of their somewhat confused brand of UR and attributed their lack of coherency to the whole tribe. But I knew there were non-cranks who also believed in UR. I had settled comfortably at the time into a belief in Annihilationism. It satisfied my need to see God as a just judge and it seemed to me consistent with scripture to a greater degree than ECT. I already understood the limits of “eternity” as misinterpreted in scripture. The Spirit (and I believe it WAS the Spirit) poured a profound sadness into my heart at all the barely formed souls lost after brief and tragic lives. “What if the URs are right?”

I realized my mistake, my blindness, in having written off this view without even having a good look at it and I started exploring. I believed I had heard from the Spirit that I SHOULD explore. This doctrine works emotionally for me now that I understand that God’s justice is and will be fulfilled on the wicked. It works for my sense of justice now that I understand that God will chasten and heal and reconcile the wicked as appropriate to their individual needs/guilt and that the victims of these (including the victims who are also guilty) will be healed and will be restored and made whole of their injuries and that the years of the locusts will be restored to them. (God told me this once a long time ago and I scarcely dared believe it. I thought I must have heard Him wrongly. How could the years eaten by the locusts of my sinfulness be restored?)

It works for me intellectually because now I see how wonderfully this doctrine knits together all of the witness of scripture. This is the key that fits. The others only work several of the lock’s tumblers, but UR fits them all, when translation is corrected on a few important words. No matter how you mistranslate or misunderstand, neither A nor C can be made to fit the lock. There are too many bits that foul up the works. They are not the keys I was looking for, and I’ve always known it deep down.

God’s redemptive purpose for the world is to reconcile all to Himself.

It is within God’s power to achieve His redemptive purpose for the world.

Some people will never be reconciled to God and will either suffer ECT or annihilation.
[size=50](credit to Thomas Talbott; Inescapable)[/size]

I know from my reading of scripture that the first proposition is supported and also that the second is true and supported. I have always believed both of these propositions and still somehow managed to suspend my “logic” in order to also believe the third. But of course, as any baby can see, the third is inconsistent with both of the others being true. Only one, or the other, can be true – if we accept the third as true.

As scripture clearly does support both of these first two propositions (and no I’m not ignoring Esau or other similar statements; I’m taking these verses in cultural context and within the pattern of scriptural statements of this sort (of which many are obviously temporary and relative), and I am not ignoring the slightly scriptural concept of free will) . . . as scripture supports the first two propositions, I can only reject the last statement as mistaken and false.

There is an elect; those who come first (with the barley or perhaps the wheat, depending on how you see it) and there is a harvest (or harvests) to come. The Bible NEVER teaches the fallacious concept that God loses His power to redeem following either death or judgment.

So Universalism satisfies the witness of my spirit as I believe that I hear from His Spirit (and He is always correcting, adjusting, maturing me). It satisfies my emotion as well, and my intellect. So that’s why I’m here. And also why I can love (in His power) no matter what.

(And if anyone has read this far, you deserve MEDALS!!!) :laughing:

Love, Cindy

wow, do i get a medal? :laughing:
just kidding, i actually found it hard to stop reading. that was one of the best said testimonies about coming to UR i’ve read. you have the weight of the study of Scripture (something i share, though my memory is awful :laughing: ), the random unnamed blend of C and A (which i also share), as well as the thoughtful and emotional process which i believe is actually very important.
i believe the Spirit works through all these things, but He delights in a teachable spirit…and to be honest, it’s taken me years to reach that point, and still loads to learn and unlearn!
thanks for sharing that…you have a very holistic approach to UR, which is brilliant and encouraging.

That is a profound, portentous question Cindy. Because of course, we *all *- Calv, Arm, UR or whatever - think that our particular interpretation of scripture is the correct one. And we can’t all be right!

But personally I would move that dilemma back one stage, to the ‘inerrancy’ or otherwise of scripture. What does it mean to say scripture is ‘inerrant’? That every single word of it is literally true, as some hardline fundamentalists might assert? That everything it describes as having happened, actually did happen (eg a literal Adam and Eve, or a literal whale swallowing Jonah)? That it gives no erroneous teaching, or never makes mistakes, includes small discrepancies or contradictions etc?

Or - and this would be my personal position - that every profound truth about the nature of God, and our relationship to Him, is captured in scripture in a way that will always speak to us, always connect with our hearts in the way God intended?

Shalom

Johnny

Hey Johnny, you probably already know this-but the standard evangelical understanding of inerrancy (without any error, scribal or otherwise) is limited to the autographa, the original manuscripts…which we conveniently enough don’t possess. Again, you’ve probably already read it, but for those who haven’t, you can google the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy.
Jesus seems to affirm the validity of Jonah in the belly of the great fish (whale, whatever) as He likens it to His tomb and resurrection, but some would argue that He’s just accomodating the peoples limited, prescientific understanding.
Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve? Do you believe in theistic evolution? When I say literal, I guess that would mean the traditionalist, predominant view of Protestant Christianity.

Johnny said:

This is also my understanding, Johnny. I don’t think it’s important to believe that every story literally happened, but rather to take the whole witness of scripture; where is it going? what is being said? and most important of all, to Whom is it pointing? as our life guide.

Now that said, I do believe that many if not all of the Bible’s stories did actually happen. I’m not dogmatic about that, and I haven’t honestly examined my reasons for this, but at present, that’s my leaning. BUT . . . the important thing about scripture is not the literal historical event (if any), but rather its meaning and symbolic import; what it tells us about Jesus, the visible image of the invisible Father.

Blessings, Cindy

Must the resurrection be taken literally?

Hi Cindy
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It is the Spirit who guides us.
I’d like to ask you some questions (or maybe its just one question really). But please believe me when I say I’m not trying to challenge or be clever in any way. I’m genuinely interested.

I agree.

So, by what means do you generally ‘hear from His Spirit’? I mean, do you hear an audiblr voice, or a voice in your head, or what?

Again, I’d love to know by what means He communicated with you, if you don’t mind?

Same question

Perhaps that answers my question to some extent. Are you saying that you may discern (through the Spirit) those who are in concert with the Spirit who God may use to speak to you?

Yes! That’s what I mean. So, I may be right in saying that (on this occasion) it was not an audible voice but a forceful thought , as if from some profound place?

No medals required. It is a beautiful testimony which I relate to very much myself. I’m just interested in how you would describe the Spirit’s leading as I have asked above.
God bless you Cindy

Hey, Pilgrim

Thanks for the questions. :slight_smile:

If I heard an audible voice I would really begin to worry! :frowning: No, He speaks to my heart, through other believers, through circumstances and events, through my emotions, through my intellect. Sometimes I may get pictures in my mind – vivid, but I wouldn’t call them visions or anything. Other times (more rarely) dreams. Or (usually) just a kind of flow of words that don’t seem to come from me. If there’s anything dubious, and I’m not sure, I would show it to brothers and sisters and ask how they see it. But usually if I get a false word (from my own head) I know it on re-reading in the next day or so and I black it out in my journal. Here’s an example of one I’ve decided to keep: journeyintotheson.com/2012/0 … rlessness/

As for being “driven away,” that’s a complex thing compiled of circumstances, people rejecting me (people who were and still are friends), my own disappointment that God wasn’t coming through in the way I thought He should (and He could have; I wasn’t asking amiss or anything, but He chose not to) . . . just a lot of things. I finally kind of hung my head and walked away.

But then a few years later I started to miss Him and feel sad – just really deeply sad – that I didn’t believe Him as I had used to. I read a book (not a very good one) that a relative had given me a couple of years before; I started noticing how beautiful the trees were in the moonlight with snow on, remembered miracles that God had done through and for me in the past. It wasn’t as though I had ever felt that I’d had a relationship with Him in the past, either. I knew about Him (and many of the things I thought I knew were wrong), but I’d never felt any emotional love toward Him (though I wanted to) or any real connection. And suddenly I just started MISSING Him. It was weird. It was this sorrow . . . so tangible – almost like a song.

So I started asking Him to soften my heart and draw me back to Him, and after a few months, He began to do that. This time was so different. I was moved to tears just singing some of the hymns (and the church we’d started attending had some DISMAL music, I must regretfully acknowledge!) It seemed that He revealed so much more to me in His word. He answered my prayers. I could sense His presence when I prayed or worshiped, and it just kept getting stronger. (Still is.)

I let go of doctrines I’d believed all my life as He showed me (through scripture, other believers, books, maybe a chance remark, or just sovereignly) where I had been mistaken. They weren’t all horrible doctrines or anything; just maybe a little off. Some were blatantly wrong, of course. This was slow progress for me, but much swifter than anything I’d experienced before, ever, so I was and am delighted with it.

And yes, the UR thing was very strong, but not audible. I had just sat down in a comfy chair to start reading a new book (on hearing His voice – I still haven’t finished it :wink: ) and suddenly such a strong thought came into my heart. On “hearing” this, I wondered how I could find out more about UR and whether you all had a case or not, and I thought; “You can find just about anything on the internet.” :laughing: It doesn’t take a divine revelation to figure that out. And I found you guys, and asked a couple of questions, downloaded Robin’s book and some others as well, and started reading and checking out the scriptures.

Funny thing, I had been asking God to lead me into more truth about Him, but He had already changed so many of the things I had thought to be true that I didn’t really know what could possibly be left. Something minor, I figured. Yeah . . . He is full of surprises!

I know it all sounds kind of nebulous. Usually what I do is sit down with my journal. I may start writing to Him what I think of Him, how marvelous He is, or asking Him a puzzling question or about some problem or maybe a scripture I’d like to understand better. Then I get quiet, clear all the clutter from my mind and just wait for a thought to come. Sometimes it’s just a word, but more follow. Sometimes I have to black out the first several sentences (later) because it was just me, trying to get started and too impatient. I don’t judge what I write until later because to do so as I go along would prevent me hearing Him. I’d be pre-occupied. But later I do judge it, whether it’s of Him or just me. If I’m not sure, I ask some of the brothers and/or sisters in our group.

Criteria: It has to align with scripture and with the whole witness of scripture. It has to be consistent with God’s character. It must not leave my spirit in turmoil. If there’s no peace, out it goes. I very, very seldom have anything in the line of prophecy (future events), and if I do I don’t usually share it. I have had minor, personal things a couple of times that did turn out to be accurate, but I’ve had things that were inaccurate as well. It’s absolutely necessary to get yourself and your own desires out of the way or you’ll be hearing from your desires rather than from God.

So yeah . . . another book :blush: I hope I answered what you wanted to know. If not, I’ll be only too happy to elaborate. :wink:

Blessings, Cindy

Jaxxon said:

Absolutely. And the incarnation and the divinity of Christ and His miracles and His words (BEING His words, that is; He did speak to the people only in parables of course). That’s me speaking for myself, obviously.

Blessings, Brother :slight_smile:

Cindy

Cindy
Thnak you again for another beautiful reply.
I agree fully with what you have said and would like to add that my experience mirrors yours in many ways.
I don’t think I’m good with written words ( perhaps a little better orally) but so often you say what I would like to say if iI had your gift of communication.
I also know exactly what it is to hear from God but to be aware that it is not for sharing. Sometimes God blesses us with an assurance and it almost seems like a betrayal of trust to use that information. I hope I’m making sense?
More generally (and to get back to the O.P.), one of the reasons for my questions to you is because the guidance of the Holy Spirit (IMO) is often by ‘feelings’. How many of the guidances you describe could be denegraded by the word ‘feelings’? And yet ‘feelings’ is what we are often dealing with.
You know the song “Blessed Assurance” - but what is ‘assurance’ other than a sure and certain ‘feeling’?

So I would say that ‘feelings’ are ultimately paramount - just as they are in anyone’s life. What are we without feelings? So, for me, I say God guides through His Holy Spirit and this guidance is ‘feelings’. But this ‘feeling’ endorses, supports and is fully consistent with our intellect our logic (or His Logos) and I have never found it to be contradictory to the record of Christ as found in the N.T.
I wonder how often those conservative evangelicals who proudly proclaim sola scriptura and pour shame on any who testify of ‘feelings’ how often they may be quenching/greiving the Holy Spirit in His work.
Thanks once again for your wonderful ministry.