The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Aionios as limited duration, not endless...examples of


#5

The synonymous Hebrew and Greek words translated as eternal in passages like those below simply mean a long duration or long lasting. Rotherham’s literal translation always translates the words as age abiding. This makes sense. While eternity is a long duration there are other periods of time that are long lasting as well. The word means indefinite duration. This Greek word comes from the Hebrew Olam. According to Hebrew scholar, Gleason Archer, Olam is the Greek word’s parent term. A quick look in the Strongest NASB Exhaustive concordance reveals that the first, main, and primary definition Olam is “long duration”. The Greek word is used to translate Olam.

Sodom is destroyed with long lasting fire

God is the long lasting God

The hills and mountains are long lasting

A man is said to be a slave for a long time

To be in a belly of a fish for three days and nights is a long time

The word itself doesn’t mean forever or eternal but eternity is long lasting or lasts for a long time so it can refer to eternity.


#6

“Kingdom” or monarchy is usually translated from <βασιλεία> basileia. The text you reference has the word <ἀρχὴ> archē meaning… beginning / first / eminence / chief / rule, etc. So it has obvious links with kingdom though not the preferred use of the term, e.g.,


#7

Isaiah 40:8-The grass withers,the flower fades but the word of our God stands forever.

The grass withers-the grass dies and goes away
The flower fades-the flower dies and goes away

Since those two situations mean that the grass and flower goes away how do you say that God’s word goes away if the word forever is translated from the word olam in the Hebrew OT and αἰών in the LXX as age(s)which also goes way? This doesn’t make sense that grass and a flower goes away as well as God’s word is we are to translate olam and aion as temporary fading ages? Isaiah was emphasizing that God’s word must laster longer than a flower and grass which forever would be the correct term wouldn’t it? How does an EU approach this?


#8

Flowers tend to grow, bloom & die within a season (a few months, a very short duration).

OTOH, in contrast to that, a word of the Lord is OLAM (5769):

“Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity”

biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

OLAM there in Isa.40:8 can be translated “forever”, “lasting”, “eonian”, etc. Believers in EU can accept any of those translations. They can also interpret OLAM there as being either of long duration & endless, or long duration & finite. In the latter case that doesn’t necessarily mean a “word of the Lord” is finite, but that OLAM is finite. So it says nothing about whether or not a “word of the Lord” continues after OLAM ends, and allows a “word of the Lord” to be endless after OLAM ends. If all AIONS/OLAMS end if & when time ends, or for any other reason as per Heb.9:26 & 1 Cor.10:11, then OLAM in Isa.40:8 cannot mean “forever”.

Can - a - word of the Lord pass away? Compare:

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:18)

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb.8:13)

Isaiah 40:8 is written under the Old Testament or Covenant.


#9

As I understand it, the MEANING of αιωνιος (aiōnios) is neither “everlasting” nor “limited duration.” Rather it can APPLY to either that which is everlasting, or that which is of limited duration. It is used as an adjective to describe God, as in Romans 16:26, and clearly God is everlasting. It is also used in the Septuagint to describe hills. Hills are not everlasting. They are of limited duration.

I think that the meaning of the word is simply “lasting.” And when one translates it as such, it fits all contexts.


#10

"“Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:”

" “It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful” (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

“It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct.”
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" “It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful.” Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being “eternal” but of finite duration are as follows:

“In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, “And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon.” Obviously there was no thought in the author’s mind of endless time…”

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, “an eonian interval.” It would be absurd to call an interval “endless.”

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as “secular” games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, “eonian,” games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen’s “insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving.” Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

“There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80”
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t8FDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=Origen+There+is+a+resurrection+of+the+dead,+and+there+is+punishment,+but+not+everlasting&source=bl&ots=4r3NGBhT0C&sig=c1KIf9XHCnTg_AGnq2Y7GBwLSoI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmyaeirbHbAhXjylQKHfJfCxkQ6AEIXTAG#v=onepage&q=Origen%20There%20is%20a%20resurrection%20of%20the%20dead%2C%20and%20there%20is%20punishment%2C%20but%20not%20everlasting&f=false

Origen sees the punishment of “eternal fire” (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

“Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments.”

“1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church’s teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be.”

“…nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.”

“…And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected.”
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Origen even makes so-called “eternal life” (“eonian life” in literal translations) finite when he speaks of “after eternal life” & “beyond eternal life”:

(19) “And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.” (Origen’s Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TuHTu3BJyywC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG%2011-17/Commentarii%20in%20evangelium%20Joannis.pdf

And again he indicates so called “everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment” (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

“That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: “it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment”; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;” (p.178-9 in “The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena” by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

Origen speaking of “after eternal life” and “beyond eternal life”, is supported also by:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=t47JCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=when+the+%E2%80%98aeons+of+the+aeons%E2%80%99+are+mentioned,+a+certain+limit+is+again+posited&source=bl&ots=z4pNrnRpzI&sig=CQBIrlKAd1Tb4bbKOawzmUnBllU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHm-X6h5jOAhUUHGMKHQYFDQ4Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=when%20the%20%E2%80%98aeons%20of%20the%20aeons%E2%80%99%20are%20mentioned%2C%20a%20certain%20limit%20is%20again%20posited&f=false

Evagrius’s Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after “the ages”, beyond “ages of the ages” [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for “shame everlasting”(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong’s Greek: 152. ??? (aischuné) – shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: “For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget”.

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, “shame everlasting [eonian]” in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;… (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)… (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

“The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods.”

“The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration”.

"…“The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting.”

“…The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.”

“… Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods.”

“…Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness.”

“…There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.”

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There%20is%20a%20word%20for%20everlasting%20if%20that%20idea%20is%20demanded&f=false

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

“…John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the “pillar of orthodoxy” Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus).”

“Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that “hell” is not an eternal condition, and that the “aionios punishment” of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the “Origenists”, found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive…”

“As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the “holy fathers” of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise” (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096


Aramaic or Hebrew for Jesus' Teachings on Hell
Aionios in 2Tim 1:9, Titus 1:2 and Rom 16:25
#11

Oldmantook said [@ post # 287 below]:

"I agree that aidios conveys the sense of eternal, forever, etc. but that in itself does not automatically make it synonymous with aionios which is a completely different word. How did you make that leap of logic? That would be another logical fallacy commonly known as an overgeneralization. Did you not notice that in v.25 - the verse previous to Rom 16:26 - also contains the word aionios? This word cannot possibly mean eternal in this verse as it refers to a mystery previously kept secret but is now revealed. An “eternal” secret by plain definition can never be revealed thus the translators/scholars chose to translate aionios in v.25 as “long ages” or something equivalent. This then begs the question why these scholars chose to translate aionios in the very next verse as eternal instead of ages? What is the justification for changing its meaning from one verse to the next? And if Paul wanted to convey the meaning of an eternal God in v.26, why didn’t he employ aidios which does mean that? The context of these two verses describe God who reveals himself and his purpose to men through the prophets and the scriptures. Something that was once a mystery kept secret but now made manifest though the ages of time. Therefore v.26 can be properly translated as “and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -” (YLT). God works out his manifest will through the ages making it known to all the nations - something that was previously a secret. Thus aionios in v.26 does not refer to God’s eternal nature but instead references his age-during ‘method’ of making his will known through the ages of time."https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-are-so-many-christians-against-annihilation-in-hell-when-scripture-supports-it.8072784/page-15
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-are-so-many-christians-against-annihilation-in-hell-when-scripture-supports-it.8072784/page-15#post-72968303


#12

Origen, can you find the exact quotes DBH is paraphrasing? I have a feeling he is misrepresenting what the writers said.


#13

From https://www.christianforums.com/forums/ someone asked:

Scripture speaks of “before times aionion” (2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2) & “before the aions” (1 Cor.2:7), so is not aionion related to time, rather than timelessness? And do those verses not indicate that the “times aionion” (and aions/eons) had a beginning? If they had a beginning, then how can aionion be speaking of timelessness or be “transcending time”? The aions had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7) so are a part of time, not timelessness. Also, the context of Rom.16:25-26 associates aionion with “time” (v.25):

25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times EONIAN,
26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the EONIAN God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (CLV)

The Greek word mis translated “eternal” (Rom.16:26) is aionion (Strongs #166). What gives Sasse the idea it speaks of “transcendent time”? The context speaks of the aionion God’s “command”. Does God give His “command[ments]” in time or outside of time?

A literal more accurate translation of aionion (=eonian) in Rom.16:25-26 states:

25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times EONIAN,
26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the EONIAN God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience

A number of Greek scholars understand aionion in Rom.16:25 to refer to a finite duration, even among those biased to endless punishment. Just look at a few dozen Greek lexicons, dictionaries, commentaries & translations to see for yourself.

Even aionion in verse 26 doesn’t require aionion mean eternal. Gustav A. Deissmann discovered a tablet from the time of the ECF Origen that said God is aionian and more than aionian (epiaionion), making aionion in reference to God finite.

Moreover, if aionion in v.25 is finite, then contextually one should consider that its use in v.26 of the context is likewise finite. Rom.16:25 refers to eons past that have ended. So in the same sentence continuing into v.26, the reference to eonian God can be to those past eons. That’s the contextual case for the viewpoint that eonian in v.26 is also finite. God was the eonian God over past eons that have already ended.

“I agree that aidios conveys the sense of eternal, forever, etc. but that in itself does not automatically make it synonymous with aionios which is a completely different word. How did you make that leap of logic? That would be another logical fallacy commonly known as an overgeneralization. Did you not notice that in v.25 - the verse previous to Rom 16:26 - also contains the word aionios? This word cannot possibly mean eternal in this verse as it refers to a mystery previously kept secret but is now revealed. An “eternal” secret by plain definition can never be revealed thus the translators/scholars chose to translate aionios in v.25 as “long ages” or something equivalent. This then begs the question why these scholars chose to translate aionios in the very next verse as eternal instead of ages? What is the justification for changing its meaning from one verse to the next? And if Paul wanted to convey the meaning of an eternal God in v.26, why didn’t he employ aidios which does mean that? The context of these two verses describe God who reveals himself and his purpose to men through the prophets and the scriptures. Something that was once a mystery kept secret but now made manifest though the ages of time. Therefore v.26 can be properly translated as “and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith -” (YLT). God works out his manifest will through the ages making it known to all the nations - something that was previously a secret. Thus aionios in v.26 does not refer to God’s eternal nature but instead references his age-during ‘method’ of making his will known through the ages of time.”

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-are-so-many-christians-against-annihilation-in-hell-when-scripture-supports-it.8072784/page-15
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-are-so-many-christians-against-annihilation-in-hell-when-scripture-supports-it.8072784/page-15#post-72968303


#14

This post IMO is quite relevant to this topic:


#15

“Jerome uses the word rendered eternal in the Bible (aionios) in the sense of limited duration, as that Jerusalem was burnt with aionian fire by Hadrian…”
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd19.html

“Of Jerusalem, he [Jerome] says on Exekiel 24, that the city was burnt with eternal fire by Hadrian.”

“Christ Triumphant: Universalism Asserted as the Hope of the Gospel on the…” By Thomas Allin [Annotated version, ed. Robin Parry, p.94]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=x09gCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=Jerusalem+was+burnt+with+eternal+fire+by+Hadrian&source=bl&ots=myV369lK0E&sig=xX2aHiQ6vVj3tlBy3-fMezYV04M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjBrdiok93dAhWFCTQIHYIADKgQ6AEwEnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Jerusalem%20was%20burnt%20with%20eternal%20fire%20by%20Hadrian&f=false

Jerome is quoted as saying:

“And after fifty years the city was consumed by eternal fire during the days of Hadrian. 571”

“571. In Ezekiel, C.24 (PL, t.25 col.228 T).”

“The Second Jewish Revolt: The Bar Kokhba War, 132-136 CE” By Menahem Mor, Brill, 2016, [p.271]

https://books.google.ca/books?id=T8wJDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA271&lpg=PA271&dq=Jerome+Ezekiel+24+eternal+fire&source=bl&ots=7cSRE-lWJP&sig=ep7H5oMf3nH8eeJnIgLJvr8mTQI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwily7v0y93dAhUhNH0KHQ9EApIQ6AEwBHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=Jerome%20Ezekiel%2024%20eternal%20fire&f=false


#16

Thank you for sharing Origen! Very interesting!


#17

Isaiah 34 says smoke would rise from Edom forever. The question is, has this prophecy already been fulfilled? If so, it would be an example of olam referring to something of limited duration, as there no longer is smoke rising from present-day Edom.


#18

This is like flogging a dead horse… of course aiōnios <αἰώνιος> strictly literally means eternal BUT its use in varying contexts demonstrates such eternalness can be confined to a given period THUS showing that aiōnios <αἰώνιος> can rightly be viewed in QUALITAITVE TERMS, e.g., “my love for you is eternal” — we all know what this means and consequently HOW it is to be viewed, i.e., qualitatively. So yes in-kind… the smoke of Edom is long gone and fulfilled. Consider…


#19

WHAT? Look up “eternal” in ANY English dictionary. It means “everlasting.” The English word “eternal” can never be confined to a given period unless it is used figuratively such as “I’d like to get rid of this eternal headache.”

αἰώνιος on the other hand never MEANS “eternal” but means “lasting.” However it can be APPLIED to that which is eternal, since that which is eternal is certainly “lasting.”


#20

Well I was looking at THE GREEK word aiōnios <αἰώνιος> and how that can be understood in English, and as you yourself acknowledge… “unless it is used figuratively” — or QUALITATIVELY as does Jesus for example in Jn 17:3 — the one place in the bible where and how “eternal life” is actually defined.


#21

John 17:3 is not a definition of “lasting life.” Rather it is a statement of the means for obtaining lasting life.

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

In our day, we might say, “This is joy, having a good, beautiful, and loving wife.”
By saying this, we are not giving a definition of “joy” but a means of obtaining it.


#22

Regardless of how you want to spin it Paidion it is still QUALITATIVE… you confirm my point.


#23

NT Wright’s version/s (The Kingdom New Testament or NTE) says life aionion is “the life of God’s coming age”:

John 17:2 Do this in the same way as you did when you gave him authority over all flesh, so that he could give the life of God’s coming age to everyone you gave him. 3 And by “the life of God’s coming age” I mean this: that they should know you, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, the one you sent. (NTE) https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%2017:3

Much the same is the version by EO scholar David Bentley Hart & others:

John 17:2b that he might give them life in the Age.
3 And this is life in the Age: that they might know you, the sole true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus the Anointed. (DBH)

Jn.17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send – Jesus Christ; (YLT)
Jn.17:3 And in this consists the Life of the Ages–in knowing Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. (WEY)
Jn.17:3 And, this, is the age-abiding life, That they get to know thee, the only real God, and him whom thou didst send, Jesus Christ. (RO)
Jn.17:3 This and is the age-lasting life, that they might know thee the only true God, and whom thou hast sent Jesus Anointed. (DG)


#24

That’s interesting @origen, considering Wright is not a universalist. How does he translate eternal punishment in the parable of the sheep and the goats?