So you think the leading of the Holy Spirit is so we can be taught by man within what you would consider mainstream churches??
I have to say that’s silly! With churches falling like trapped flies under the political and social pressures, He will NOW be calling His people and speaking to them directly like He hasn’t in our time before. And the "children of God will stand out and stand on His word with The Helper within then confirming Truth and revealing mysteries.
And the scholar may just miss hearing Him because their doctrines become their God.
Those who are sealed with the Spirit of promise will hear Him.
Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice another they simply won’t follow.” I don’t care what the mainstream churches say about being “born again” Its an experience that God Himself does in our lives. It is the “way” You can’t walk by the Spirit without the experience of being born again.
Being born again, and being one of His sheep is an act of children. Unless we become like a child we won’t know Him nor will we be “known by Him”
So I’m listening for His voice. All facts He bears witness to by 2 or 3, our primary witness is the Spirit of Truth!
If man speaks and its from God, the Spirit should bear witness. If God speaks within He will also bear witness by the saints.
But just because it’s a mainstream church doesn’t mean The Spirit of Truth is there.
The problem comes in is when folks think they are being led by the Holy Spirit and present different scriptural positions. It has happened on this forum. When I did pin a person down, they said they were being led - by the Holy Spirit. So if person A has a different Biblical understanding than person B…and they both claim to be led by the Holy Spirit … Who is right? How can someone standing on the outside - know?
I find it interesting you call them “man made churches.” Did the Apostles and Saint Paul also establish - or partake in - “man made churches”? I trust that you don’t belong to any “man made churches” - right?
Anyway, I’m off again this morning. I’ll continue our “intellectual discussion” when I return.
God’s purpose was to bring good news to the Gentiles then also restore the Jews.
The Jews were His people who brought forth His promise the line of David, Jesus.
They rejected the Christ and killed Him. But God prepared the Passover Lamb Jesus Himself, and because of their obstinance, God let them be blind for a time.
As the good news went out to the Gentiles. He will also soon He will restore a portion of Israel, and already has in many Jews, in the Messianic Jews, who are Jews that believe Jesus is the Messiah.
The rejection had to occur to spread the good news beyond the chosen people Israel. So that the children of God from the Gentiles would also join the chosen out of Israel to be as 1 people.
His Bride. The children of God, “nature groans to see revealed,” sealed with the Spirit of promise. And redeemed from the curse of man.
“Test the Spirits” not every Spirit is from God. Without the Helper, the Spirit of Truth we can’t discern the difference. The biggest thing is abide in Him, and He in you. And Truth will be made known.
The Holy Spirit makes sense, but its simplicity is since.
If it’s complicated it’s likely not from God.
And if it’s stupid but simple it may also not be from God.
The Spirit will lead you to all Truth, if He is indeed in you.
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot * receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot ) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. 25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every
branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot * bear fruit of itself unless * it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless * you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing *. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever * you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
Disciples’ Relation to Each Other
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever * * you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
Disciples’ Relation to the World
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this * the world hates you. 20 "Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 "But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’ 26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
The purposes of the Spirit
1 to perform a work in us causing us to be born of the Spirit
2 to remain with us
3 to enable us to walk in the Spirit, which is a walk of love
4 to bear fruit in us that also will remain, " not be burned up" but remain
5 To glorify Jesus, and bring all things to remembrance
6 to bear witness to the truth and teach us all things
7 to make us 1 like the Father and Son are 1
8 to give Spiritual gifts, to make leaders and pastors
9 to make us stand
Etc…
Feel free to chime on on the jobs and purposes of the Spirit.
When you just quote scripture to questions or comments - it tells me nothing. What do you think the quoted scripture means? At least when I hear a sermon, the preacher, minister, priest or bishop - gives me either their own exposition or that of the particular church, they are affiliated with.
Test the spirits? I do that all the time. There are spirits of heaven, hell and spirits of the earth. Many people don’t even know they exist, let alone tell the difference.
More often than not, an explanation is needed. But it’s usually given, through a particular church lens.
Just so everyone is on the same page. What is your definition/ Can you find it in the Wiki article born again? And how should one regard the explanations given by Roman Catholics, Lutheran, Anglicans, Reformed and Methodists, given in the Wiki article?
True.
You do realize this “intellectual discussion” can go on, for a long, long time - right? Off to the races, for a while.
You do realize this “intellectual discussion” can go on, for a long, long time - right? Off to the races, for a while.
If you are born again it doesn’t matter if your Catholic or Presbyterian or Messianic Jew or Non Denominational.
The common thing would be 1 in the Spirit aside from our factions and minor doctrines.
It actually doesn’t matter if You go to confession or if I put my face down on the alter. God looks at the heart.
If your conscience needs the rituals you were accustomed to, and I do not… that is exactly what 1 Corinthians was discussing.
So let’s not make each other stumble and honor each’s need to their conscience.
Even if your faith is “weak” needing the ritual, and mine is not " no longer needing the ritual" what matters is that we love and don’t cause the one who is weak to stumble.
Because what matter weak or strong is the heart
Are you a universalist? Why or why not?
If not, why are you here?
If not, what happens to the “unsaved”?
If so, then what difference does one’s Christian orientation (i.e. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) make?
If so, why do you think your position is more or less right, then that of anyone on this forum?
Anyway, I’m away this evening. So I might have to continue tomorrow.
I am not opposed to the value of their study. I just don’t feel that’s the end all of knowledge. I don’t think you have to have a level of scholarly education to hear from God and your get understanding.
I value the independent study by a person equally to the scholar.
I think both could have valuable input to gain understanding.
FWIW I recently had the pleasure to see this quote from a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):
“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction
in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).”
What is the significance of aionios when it is in the plural?
I met an alleged native Greek speaker on a forum. He argued aionios is always finite when in the plural form, which he alleged is only in Rom.16:25 in the NT. He claimed all other NT occurrences of aionios mean “eternal”. We had the following conversation re aionios in the plural in Rom.16:25 & elsewhere:
No other NT instances of the plural aionios than Rom.16:25? Not according to:
“I understand the meaning of the word aionios (often appearing in genitive plural aionion) in Greek…”
" “[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.” (2 Timothy 1:9)
“That phrase “from all eternity” in Greek is ‘pro aionios chronos.’ Pro means ‘before,’ aionios is in a plural form as is chronos, which means ‘time.’ …”
"“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past.” (Romans 16:25)
“The phrase “long ages past” in Greek is ‘aionios chronos.’ Again, both aionios and chronos are in a plural form…”
"“…in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,” (Titus 1:2)
“Again, the phrase, “long ages ago,” in Greek is ‘pro aionios chronos.’ And again, both aionios and chronos are in a plural form. It is unfeasible to have multiple eternities that ended a long time ago. That is why the translators for many versions of the Bible refrain from using the word “eternal” in these verses. The question then remains…if this word means eternal, then how can there be more than one eternity? And how can there be eternities that are past?”#5
We disagree there. IMO in the NT aionion means eonian.
If it means eternal, then do you believe in “eternal punishment” & fire (Mt.25:41,46) & eternal destruction (2 Thess.1:9), & eternal sin (Mk.3:29)? How about the parallel passage to Mt.25:41 with torments forever (Rev.20:10). Have you rejected universalism?
The meaning of any instance of aionion is determined by usage & its particular context.
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
The same phrase, and Greek words, for “shame everlasting”(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
Can you provide a single example in all of ancient Greek where you think context makes it clear that aionios means “eternal”? I don’t see any examples of such in the NT or Greek OT. Do you also think aion & olam mean eternal? The following post quotes dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration & refers to dozens of others where it is finite:
