Am I understanding this correctly?

[Appa]

First, a little background on myself. I was brought up going to a Baptist church. After I turned 16, I began to look closer at the Bible and was really troubled at the thought of hell. One thing lead to another, and I eventually came to the conclusion no loving God would damn his creation to hell and became Agnostic as to whether God was real or not. That said, I was obviously weak in my understanding of the Bible then, and would be lying if I said I wasn’t weak in my understanding of it now.

Over the past couple of months, the thought of God and my Christian upbringing has been weighing on me heavily, causing me to reevaluate my position and to look closer at the Bible and Jesus. I’ve done so, and actually became quite comfortable with what I’ve read, and then the thought of Hell reentered my mind once again. About a week ago, however, I stumbled upon UR and found this forum. I’ve not read a lot of threads here, mainly due to my lack of free time, but I’ve confused myself as to what UR is and not sure I have a proper understanding of it. I’m hoping someone can tell me whether I’m understanding “evangelical universalism” correctly, and if not, set me straight on it.

Now that I have gotten that out of the way, onto my understanding of Christian UR.

1. Those that accept UR generally believe that all of Gods creation,** regardless of sin **committed( Even hitler, pol pot, etc), will eventually be reconciled to God in Heaven.

2. (This technically goes back to question 1, but also its own) Even if someone doesn’t accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in this life, will have a chance during the Second Coming when the dead rises.

3)Those that accept UR generally do not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment, but rather a purgatory/corrective state to cleanse the soul of previous sins before it is reconciled to God in Heaven.

Thats pretty much what I gather from reading this forum(and a few other websites) for about a week, but for some reason, I get a strong sense that I’ve got very confused on what Christian UR really is. It’s something that I’m interested in exploring, so if you could be so kind, help clear this up for me.

Any help regarding this would be MUCH appreciated.

[JasonPratt]

Welcome, Appa! Fellow Southern Baptist here.

1. Those that accept UR generally believe that all of Gods creation,** regardless of sin **committed( Even hitler, pol pot, etc), will eventually be reconciled to God in Heaven.

Most of us (myself included) don’t believe they will go to heaven first, but rather that impenitent sinners go to purgatory first where they are reconciled to God (and punished to various degrees and in various ways so long as they remain impenitent). Thus you could call us purgatorial universalists.

We do have some members who believe that when God first cures us of all our inherent mental and physical diseases during or before the resurrection, every sinner will thus be finally in a position to immediately understand why they should reconcile with God, and so there will be no post-mortem punishment per se. They like to be called ultra-universalists; and they’re more likely than others of us to believe in typical penal substitutionary atonement (effectively applied to all sinners so God has no wrath toward anyone anymore and never will again) and a preterist eschatology (all prophecies of coming divine wrath have been fulfilled already one way or another, and only in human history). They’re also more likely to believe rebel angels don’t really exist, or not as actual persons (perhaps as impersonal forces which only seem personal, like a psychic gestalt reaction or a projection of human spiritual sin or disease). If I understand them correctly, the Ethiopian Orthodox (an ancient trinitarian communion) has almost always believed this, for example; possibly also the Coptic Orthodox (based in Alexandria, Egypt) from whom they became an autonomous organization in the late 1950s.

(I’m running a game campaign elsewhere as Ethiopia in World War One, so I did a bit of research on them recently. )

2. (This technically goes back to question 1, but also its own) Even if someone doesn’t accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in this life, will have a chance during the Second Coming when the dead rises.

Yes, and during hades/sheol if souls aren’t asleep during that period or phase (connected to the ancient Christian belief, even among non-universalists, about Christ’s descent into hades to preach the gospel), and afterward in the lake of fire if purgatorial universalism is true. (If ultra-u is true there is no punitive lake-of-fire/Gehenna effect before or after resurrection.)

3)Those that accept UR generally do not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment, but rather a purgatory/corrective state to cleanse the soul of previous sins before it is reconciled to God in Heaven.

Purga-u’s, yes, insofar as anyone keeps holding and fondling their sins, but also as a cleaning action even where it isn’t punitive. Ultra-u’s often believe it in the sense of only being a cleansing/healing action, not as punishment for ongoing willful intransigence (but maybe briefly inconvenient to the sinner, like ancient last-ditch healing techniques involving fire, sulfur, maggots and/or salt – images typically found in the scripture connected to divine punishment or wrath on sinners. Purga-u’s like myself often recognize those images as remedial healing techniques as well.)

Aside from all this, there are hopeful universalists who believe God will never give up acting toward bringing sinners home but who aren’t personally sure whether God (for various reasons) won’t allow an ongoing stalemate that happens to never end; and people sometimes called hopeful universalists who are more like universalist hopefuls, who are agnostic about whether or not God will stop acting along that line (for whatever reason) or has full scope of intention after all. (There are Arminians among the former and Calvinists among the latter.)

And there are those who have thought, like apparently St. Irenaeus, that God will save all human sinners but not all (or any) rebel angels. So in Ir’s case he would have been categorically annihilationist (all rebel angels would be finally destroyed out of existence so no more evildoers would exist anywhere) but also a limited universalist in a secondary way (all human sinners would be saved by God through Christ).

Thats pretty much what I gather from reading this forum(and a few other websites) for about a week, but for some reason, I get a strong sense that I’ve got very confused on what Christian UR really is. It’s something that I’m interested in exploring, so if you could be so kind, help clear this up for me.

Any help regarding this would be MUCH appreciated.

The confusion could easily come from us often disagreeing with one another about how exactly things will work out, as much as most denominations have disagreements among themselves about how exactly the Second Coming is going to work out – and we aren’t even an organized denomination (usually. There are a few conservative trinitarian and conservative unitarian doctrinal denominations around, but they aren’t overly large.)

Anyway, hope that was helpful! Some other members may have additions, clarifications or corrections, or may wish to give a more precise accounting of their specific beliefs along this line. I’ve tried to give an idea of the breadth of options without dwelling much on my own beliefs.

[Appa]

Welcome, Appa! Fellow Southern Baptist here.

1. Those that accept UR generally believe that all

of Gods creation,** regardless of sin **committed( Even hitler, pol pot, etc), will eventually be reconciled to God in Heaven.

Most of us (myself included) don’t believe they will go to heaven first, but rather that impenitent sinners go to purgatory first where they are reconciled to God (and punished to various degrees and in various ways so long as they remain impenitent). Thus you could call us purgatorial universalists.

We do have some members who believe that when God first cures us of all our inherent mental and physical diseases during or before the resurrection, every sinner will thus be finally in a position to immediately understand why they should reconcile with God, and so there will be no post-mortem punishment per se. They like to be called ultra-universalists; and they’re more likely than others of us to believe in typical penal substitutionary atonement (effectively applied to all sinners so God has no wrath toward anyone anymore and never will again) and a preterist eschatology (all prophecies of coming divine wrath have been fulfilled already one way or another, and only in human history). They’re also more likely to believe rebel angels don’t really exist, or not as actual persons (perhaps as impersonal forces which only seem personal, like a psychic gestalt reaction or a projection of human spiritual sin or disease). If I understand them correctly, the Ethiopian Orthodox (an ancient trinitarian communion) has almost always believed this, for example; possibly also the Coptic Orthodox (based in Alexandria, Egypt) from whom they became an autonomous organization in the late 1950s.

(I’m running a game campaign elsewhere as Ethiopia in World War One, so I did a bit of research on them recently. )

2. (This technically goes back to question 1, but also its own) Even if someone doesn’t accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in this life, will have a chance during the Second Coming when the dead rises.

Yes, and during hades/sheol if souls aren’t asleep during that period or phase (connected to the ancient Christian belief, even among non-universalists, about Christ’s descent into hades to preach the gospel), and afterward in the lake of fire if purgatorial universalism is true. (If ultra-u is true there is no punitive lake-of-fire/Gehenna effect before or after resurrection.)

3)Those that accept UR generally do not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment, but rather a purgatory/corrective state to cleanse the soul of previous sins before it is reconciled to God in Heaven.

Purga-u’s, yes, insofar as anyone keeps holding and fondling their sins, but also as a cleaning action even where it isn’t punitive. Ultra-u’s often believe it in the sense of only being a cleansing/healing action, not as punishment for ongoing willful intransigence (but maybe briefly inconvenient to the sinner, like ancient last-ditch healing techniques involving fire, sulfur, maggots and/or salt – images typically found in the scripture connected to divine punishment or wrath on sinners. Purga-u’s like myself often recognize those images as remedial healing techniques as well.)

Aside from all this, there are hopeful universalists who believe God will never give up acting toward bringing sinners home but who aren’t personally sure whether God (for various reasons) won’t allow an ongoing stalemate that happens to never end; and people sometimes called hopeful universalists who are more like universalist hopefuls, who are agnostic about whether or not God will stop acting along that line (for whatever reason) or has full scope of intention after all. (There are Arminians among the former and Calvinists among the latter.)

And there are those who have thought, like apparently St. Irenaeus, that God will save all human sinners but not all (or any) rebel angels. So in Ir’s case he would have been categorically annihilationist (all rebel angels would be finally destroyed out of existence so no more evildoers would exist anywhere) but also a limited universalist in a secondary way (all human sinners would be saved by God through Christ).

Thats pretty much what I gather from reading this forum(and a few other websites) for about a week, but for some reason, I get a strong sense that I’ve got very confused on what Christian UR really is. It’s something that I’m interested in exploring, so if you could be so kind, help clear this up for me.

Any help regarding this would be MUCH appreciated.

The confusion could easily come from us often disagreeing with one another about how exactly things will work out, as much as most denominations have disagreements among themselves about how exactly the Second Coming is going to work out – and we aren’t even an organized denomination (usually. There are a few conservative trinitarian and conservative unitarian doctrinal denominations around, but they aren’t overly large.)

Anyway, hope that was helpful! Some other members may have additions, clarifications or corrections, or may wish to give a more precise accounting of their specific beliefs along this line. I’ve tried to give an idea of the breadth of options without dwelling much on my own beliefs.

Nice knowing im not the only one from a baptist background. Not to go off topic, but It doesn’t get much better than old baptist hymns music wise IMO. I actually stumbled up on this forum when I was reading about Dr.Ralph Stanley and found that he was a universalist, and Google eventually lead me to a thread here discussing it.

You used a term that I believe I could personally accept. “Purgatorial universalist”. Just so I’m 110% on this, “Purgatorial universalists” generally believe that all, even those such as Hitler, Stalin, etc, will eventually be returned to God, but will pay for their punishments before doing so, correct? The reason I bring this up again is because the thought of God torturing **anyone **for eternity is one of the main things that lead me to agnosticism, as I couldn’t piece together how an all loving God could torture his creation forever. If I’m understanding this right, “Purgatorial universalism” has just cleared my doubts, and might just be the way for me. I feel that view would be closer to the truth.

One more thing I’m curious about and would like your opinion on is this: Jesus said the only way to Heaven is through him, so in your opinion, the unsaved, doubters, would generally come to accept Christ during the purgatorial stages, right? or am I totally off base here? I gather this from the Bible passages stating that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Thanks for the response as it has been very helpful. I owe you a great deal of gratitude.

[Sherman]

Welcome to the forum Appa!

Jason gave a good brief answer to your questions. Personally, I do not believe in Hell any longer because I find it to be neither scriptural nor reasonable, and it certainly doesn’t line up with the character of the God I’ve experienced. I’ve come to believe that Jesus saves us from this “present evil age” (Gal.1.4), and that a person continues to live as slaves, dead in their sins, in this “present evil age” until they are saved, delivered, and made whole by the grace and love of God. I’d describe this present evil age as “hell on earth and to come having no end until one is freed from it.” And salvation is by grace, this we accept in faith, which is itself a gift of God. So ultimately all are saved and the kingdom of darkness is eclipsed by the kingdom of light.

Concerning judgment and punishment of sin, frankly, that worries me for I see in scripture that judgment is based on how we live, what we do with what we’ve been given, how we treat others, etc. And I fully expect judgment to burn the hell out of me, you, us all! I expect that He’ll have buckets of tears to dry, my tears, buckets. So I don’t worry to much about Hitler, Stalin, etc., but worry more about myself. I’ve been given much, MUCH, and that scares the hell out of me. I suppose one could say I’m a purgatorial universalist, but it’s the purgatory for me that worries me and yet I trust will liberate me! I don’t worry too much, if any, about others being punished for their sins. I figure that God’s going to work all that out for the best. If punishment is required for reconciliation, then it will be done in grace and love.

How it all pans out, I don’t know, but I trust in the Lord, Savior of all, even Savior of me!

[JasonPratt]

I suppose one could say I’m a purgatorial universalist, but it’s the purgatory for me that worries me and yet I trust will liberate me! I don’t worry too much, if any, about others being punished for their sins.

Same here. I prefer to be like the Alexandrian goldsmith in the parable about St. Anthony: everyone else God will have no problems with, but I have much to repent and let go of.

Just so I’m 110% on this, “Purgatorial universalists” generally believe that all, even those such as Hitler, Stalin, etc, will eventually be returned to God, but will pay for their punishments before doing so, correct?

Close enough. Purgas have some differences about the details there; some of the older ones thought each person, or class of sinner, would be set particular times of punishment like a jail sentence (which led into the older Roman Catholic notion of purgatory). Others of us (including myself) believe the punishment per se only lasts as long as a person impenitently holds to sin. But even among this set of purgas, there could be a further dispute among whether discipline for teaching and training purposes will continue (just not as punishment per se) or whether all inconvenience will stop at that point. (I’m in the former camp there.) And it needn’t be extreme torment; it could be the equivalent of a stern talking to.

So there are a number of options that might be true. The key distinct point about Christian universalism (or similar universalisms in other theisms, as far as they go) is that God (including Christ) never gives up on anyone and always tries for everyone: total persistence and total scope of evangelism.

To be fair, there are non-universalists who don’t believe for a moment God torments/tortures creation at all, or at least not forever. Annihilationists believe God puts sinners out of the misery, at once or eventually; and a popular strand of ECT (spearheaded by C. S. Lewis who also semi-combined this notion with annihilation) takes the view that sinners only torment themselves and God doesn’t even lock them into hell. Those two ideas could be combined into the notion that God just decides to stop keeping sinners in existence and lets them sin their selves out of existence, annihilating themselves.

So there are some non-univeralist options that don’t (on the face of it anyway) involve God torturing anyone for eternity.

Jesus said the only way to Heaven is through him, so in your opinion, the unsaved, doubters, would generally come to accept Christ during the purgatorial stages, right? or am I totally off base here? I gather this from the Bible passages stating that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

That sort of thing certainly happens in the purgatorial stages, but Lewis (whose school I follow aside from being a universalist ) among some other theologians (both Protestant and Catholic) have argued that there are indications from Jesus and Paul that, in God’s reckoning, there are secret Christians already whom God will accept as such even though they don’t even know they are serving Him faithfully yet. (For example the sheep in the judgment parable, who didn’t know that they had been faithfully serving Christ and are confused about being immediately accepted.) There are some scriptures which suggest that God will give unbelievers to believers as gifts, due to love by the believer, too; and this affected the beliefs of even some of the ancient non-universalist Fathers, for example the Pope who having learned about a charitable act by the pagan Emperor Trajan (who wasn’t exactly a friend of Christians in life), and was so concerned for his salvation that he petitioned God to release him from hell – and thought that he had been granted assurance of this! (In medieval time, and in modern medieval studies, variations of this story became known as the Golden Legend.)

But yes, obviously we appeal to that scripture (in both its NT occurrences and in its OT original context) a lot.

[Dondi]

Hi Appa,

Like you, I come from an ECT Baptist background (but you can read my story of how I got to UR here: A Place to Summarize What You Believe ) Anyway, I lean toward the purgatorial view, because I believe that part of God’s justice is to make things right, not just between us and God, but also between each other (believer or non-believer alike). It used to be that I thought that once we get to heaven, everything would be honky-dory right then and there. It could still be that way, but my feeling is that there would be a time of reconciliation between the offender and the offended (much like the way you hear stories of how a mother would forgive a convicted kiler for killing her son and ends up being a mother to the convict. That sort of thing does happen, but not overnight and not without some soul-searching forgiveness). I mean, what does a saved holocost victim say when confronted with one of their tormentors (who also later got saved) when they see him in heaven? “Oh so nice to see you, how are you?” Somehow, I would think that there would have to be a period of reconciliation immersed in the Love of God. (Perhaps that could even happen during the millenial period, I don’t know. Just a thought. )

I just don’t see the logic of an eternal hell of why would God allow someone…ANYONE…to be in that kind of lasting torment for ever and ever. (you could try to placate me with the old “His ways are not our ways” reasoning, but that’s a cop out anyway when you realize that that verse in Isaiah 55 talks about mercy and not judgement). I think God is so much more awesome than what I can imagine Him to be than the kind of tyrant I wouldn’t want to be if I were made in His image .

Now I’m not saying there is no hell. It could be just as hot as ECT, but forever? Come on, man!

[Paidion]

Whether one believes in the existence of Hell or not, depends entirely on how the word “Hell” is defined.

If “Hell” means a place or condition in which some or most people are tormented eternally, then I don’t believe in it.

But if “Hell” means a place or condition in which people who have lived their lives for themselves and not in submission to God, are given by God whatever kind of correction they require and no more than that— remedial “punishment” and not punitive, then I believe in it.

No soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him. If hell be needful to save him, hell will blaze, and the worm writhe and bite, until he takes refuge in the will of the Father. ‘Salvation from hell’ is salvation conceived by such to whom hell and not evil is the terror.

— The Hope of the Gospel, Ch. 1 Salvation from Sin, p8-9

[Appa]

Welcome to the forum Appa!

Jason gave a good brief answer to your questions. Personally, I do not believe in Hell any longer because I find it to be neither scriptural nor reasonable, and it certainly doesn’t line up with the character of the God I’ve experienced. I’ve come to believe that Jesus saves us from this “present evil age” (Gal.1.4), and that a person continues to live as slaves, dead in their sins, in this “present evil age” until they are saved, delivered, and made whole by the grace and love of God. I’d describe this present evil age as “hell on earth and to come having no end until one is freed from it.” And salvation is by grace, this we accept in faith, which is itself a gift of God. So ultimately all are saved and the kingdom of darkness is eclipsed by the kingdom of light.

Concerning judgment and punishment of sin, frankly, that worries me for I see in scripture that judgment is based on how we live, what we do with what we’ve been given, how we treat others, etc. And I fully expect judgment to burn the hell out of me, you, us all! I expect that He’ll have buckets of tears to dry, my tears, buckets. So I don’t worry to much about Hitler, Stalin, etc., but worry more about myself. I’ve been given much, MUCH, and that scares the hell out of me. I suppose one could say I’m a purgatorial universalist, but it’s the purgatory for me that worries me and yet I trust will liberate me! I don’t worry too much, if any, about others being punished for their sins. I figure that God’s going to work all that out for the best. If punishment is required for reconciliation, then it will be done in grace and love.

How it all pans out, I don’t know, but I trust in the Lord, Savior of all, even Savior of me!

Thanks for commenting Sherman.
Your view is very interesting IMO. Just out of curiosity, have you ever looked into Primitive Baptist Unviersalists? The view you hold is a very very similar view held by the Primitive Baptist Universalists(also known as no hellers). I actually ordered a book on Primitive Baptist Universalists a few nights ago, as I discovered PBU is mainly just an Appalachian tradition(while I was reading on Dr. Ralph Stanley). I’ve lived in the Appalachian Mountains (Hence the name Appa) my entire life and had never heard of this group until recently, so they are few and far between from what I gather. I live in rural Kentucky (There are no PBU churches in KY that I could find), so the majority of churches in my area preach the traditional hell view, but I do find it refreshing to know there was a lot of folks that live in the Mountains that see things that way.

I suppose one could say I’m a purgatorial universalist, but it’s the purgatory for me that worries me and yet I trust will liberate me! I don’t worry too much, if any, about others being punished for their sins.

So there are a number of options that might be true. The key distinct point about Christian universalism (or similar universalisms in other theisms, as far as they go) is that God (including Christ) never gives up on anyone and always tries for everyone: total persistence and total scope of evangelism.

To be fair, there are non-universalists who don’t believe for a moment God torments/tortures creation at all, or at least not forever. Annihilationists believe God puts sinners out of the misery, at once or eventually; and a popular strand of ECT (spearheaded by C. S. Lewis who also semi-combined this notion with annihilation) takes the view that sinners only torment themselves and God doesn’t even lock them into hell. Those two ideas could be combined into the notion that God just decides to stop keeping sinners in existence and lets them sin their selves out of existence, annihilating themselves.

So there are some non-univeralist options that don’t (on the face of it anyway) involve God torturing anyone for eternity.

But yes, obviously we appeal to that scripture (in both its NT occurrences and in its OT original context) a lot.

(I hated to shorten your posts in this quote,but I figured it’d be easier for everyone this way since I’m responding to everyone in one post)

You’ve cleared up a lot for me in the past couple of posts. Based on this thread, I’m drawn to your type of views regarding universalism and hell, and I’m interested in learning more about that type of view. If I could trouble you with one last question, would you have any book recommendations that touch on views that reflect yours, and if so, in what order should I read them? I see there is a slew of books out there regarding Christian Universalism, but its a bit overwhelming with so many and I’m not sure where to start(especially with books concerning views similar to the ones you’ve expressed in this thread)

Hi Appa,
I just don’t see the logic of an eternal hell of why would God allow someone…ANYONE…to be in that kind of lasting torment for ever and ever. (you could try to placate me with the old “His ways are not our ways” reasoning, but that’s a cop out anyway when you realize that that verse in Isaiah 55 talks about mercy and not judgement). I think God is so much more awesome than what I can imagine Him to be than the kind of tyrant I wouldn’t want to be if I were made in His image .

Now I’m not saying there is no hell. It could be just as hot as ECT, but forever? Come on, man!

Thanks for the input Dondi, you’ve made some interesting points. Espically about the mother forgiving the convicted killer of her son, its kinda crazy how that works huh? I can relate to how you came to universalism, as I’ve had a similar path here. It seems we both share the same problem of hell. I definitely feel ya on your thoughts on hell and what not. I’ve always viewed God as a loving father, and I can’t for the life of me accept that a loving father would disciple their child for eternity with torture.

Whether one believes in the existence of Hell or not, depends entirely on how the word “Hell” is defined.

If “Hell” means a place or condition in which some or most people are tormented eternally, then I don’t believe in it.

But if “Hell” means a place or condition in which people who have lived their lives for themselves and not in submission to God, are given by God whatever kind of correction they require and no more than that— remedial “punishment” and not punitive, then I believe in it.

No soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him. If hell be needful to save him, hell will blaze, and the worm writhe and bite, until he takes refuge in the will of the Father. ‘Salvation from hell’ is salvation conceived by such to whom hell and not evil is the terror.

— The Hope of the Gospel, Ch. 1 Salvation from Sin, p8-9

Thanks for commenting Paidion. I agree 100%.

The definition of hell definitely varies. You’ve summed it up nicely.

Thanks everyone for the input. I really do appreciate it and you’ve all helped me a GREAT deal, you have no idea. I’ll say this, I may have misidentified myself when I called myself agnostic now that I’m looking back, I think “seeker” would be a better term. I’ve related to so much in this thread its crazy, and I think I’ve found the answers I’ve been looking for. I look forward to having further discussing with everyone here, especially as I gain a better understanding of Christian Universalism in general and a better understanding of my personal beliefs, then I’ll be able to provide you fine folks with better conversation rather than asking questions. Cheers! I can’t thank all of you enough.

[Sherman]

Hi Appa,

I’m not familiar with the PBUs, though it would be intersting to study with them. I appreciate very much our Baptist brothers. The Baptist emphasis on having a personal relationship with God, being born of the Spirit, is a powerful, life-changing revelation, moving “religion” from the head to the heart, from theory to experience! Hallelujah!

You mentioned living in KY, I live about 10 minutes from central SE KY in White House, TN and worship with an transdenominational fellowship just North of Nashville. I’ve shared my beliefs with the leadership of that fellowship, and they are accepting of me though mosts are Infernalists. Christian Universalism seems to be growing into a major movement in the church universal though. And I’m thankful for God opening my heart and mind to it. It has cost me much relationally, but I trust it’s a wise investment.

May the Lord bless you and yours as you continue to grow in your knowledge and faith in the love and grace of God.

Blessings,
Sherman

[JasonPratt]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever looked into Primitive Baptist Unviersalists?

I’m on the wrong side of Tennessee from them, but I know they exist. More prevalent up in the PA Appas are the Church of the Brethren, who are German Baptists (and I think the oldest Baptist group in America) closely related to the Mennonites and Amish. In effect they’re universalist Mennonites, though of the more culture accommodating sort of Mennonite. They’re best known in the US for establishing and (I think continuing to run?) the charity Heifer International.

(I hated to shorten your posts in this quote,but I figured it’d be easier for everyone this way since I’m responding to everyone in one post)

Lord yes, no kidding don’t quote the whole post in followups!

If I could trouble you with one last question, would you have any book recommendations that touch on views that reflect yours, and if so, in what order should I read them?

I’m not a good person to ask about this because I developed it independently before I found there were books out there on the topic.

The third edition (1817 or 1831) of Winchester’s 1788 book The Universal Restoration is my vote for the best introduction pound for pound to the scriptural case along with some light metaphysics. It can be found for free online in various places, but the pdf is a little large to append here on the forum. If you buy a print version from Amazon or somewhere, make sure they’re printing from either a good pdf visual scan or a human transcription (not automatic transcription from a pdf).

Gregory MacDonald’s 2nd edition of The Evangelical Universalist (whom the forum is named after) covers some scriptural and some philosophical issues, so is a good choice for a basic introduction. I don’t know what will be in Tom Talbott’s 2nd edition of The Inescapable Love of God but the first edition back in the 90s was more philosophically based than scriptural. John Kronan and Eric Reitan’s recent God’s Final Victory covers various philosophical arguments in much more depth.

I’m compiling a still very incomplete but already very large set of scriptural analyses, which I’m slooowwwwwly posting up here on the forum; but the most recent edition of collected notes so far (which are still missing many important transcripts and collations from other notes of mine) can be found appended to this post below. It is not systematically sorted AT ALL, only by scriptural order, so may be more confusing than helpful at this stage.

If you’re looking for a super-in-depth account progressively and meticulously piecing together a trinitarian metaphysic with strong connections to a consequential universalism, click on Sword to the Heart in any of my sigs. This is absolutely not a scriptural argument of any kind, and is designed to help adult sceptics or positive agnostics (whom the book is sympathetic to) get a handle on the logical underpinnings of the trinitarian doctrinal set. Just be aware, the book is almost 900 pages long; but that’s where I would want to start if I wasn’t a Christian yet or had already been one but wasn’t anymore: why should I even believe in Christian theology in the first place? – and don’t give me ‘because this collection of ancient religious texts says so’, lots of religious texts say a lot of things!

There are other helpful modern and ancient books of course, but those are the ones I would hand to people who wanted presentations of what I believe – since after all I’m writing two of them.

George MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermon volumes (plus Hope of the Gospel which is basically USVol4) are good discipleship sermons, and I highly recommend them on those terms, but he doesn’t talk a whole lot about why someone should be a Christian universalist, just how it fits into personal discipleship.
Scripture Compilation List.doc (526 KB)