The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Blog: "why calvinism is more heretical than universalism"

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#43

hmm…the way i’ve read it, Israel was elected as a priesthood to the world. they were also elected to give birth to the Messiah, another gift to the world.
the church is elected to go into the world and preach the good news…

i reckon if there’s any grounds for believing Calvinism, it’s partial Calvanism, for those that are saved by some divine revelation they can’t ignore (i have friends like this, but Christ’s faithful disciples and Paul are great examples of those who really had no choice after what they were gifted to know)…and i’d mix that with the Arminian view that aside from those privileged souls that had no choice but to accept God’s revelation, there are people who do have a choice.

however, i’m thinking both of these schools of thought have issues. as far as i’ve gotten in TEU, i’ve noticed that Calvinists fall flat by making the GOODNESS of God to be less (because He extends His grace to all, provably, in Scripture, and yet based on a few verses it is assumed that He chooses to eternally torment a group vaguely defined by implication at least as not Elect).
Arminians possibly (i don’t know if i’m convinced yet) fall flat in making God’s greatness smaller by saying He couldn’t eventually have the ability to win over everyone.

either God is great AND God is good, or He is one or the other. Universalism to me appears to follow the more sensible path of saying He is great (so great He always gets His way, by hook or by crook) AND good (because He does not will for anyone to die forever outside His love).

i’m sure i’ve put this badly.

but i agree with that article. it’s well thought out, and i do agree that universalism is less “heretical” (as in it its potential to drive people away from our loving, great God) than ECT-brand Calvinism, sorry if that offends.

but i must say, if i’m out to burn me some heretics…i’d first go after the prosperity gospel blasphemers. they are parasites of the worst order that lead many away from God.

#44

Goodness of God is whatever God wants it to be. So if God saves NONE God will still be good. That’s calvinism

God is good regardless because He says, He is good. There is no other. Thinking that God’s goodness is based on salvation is man centered and where universalism goes off the rails. That is fleshly reasoning.

#45

“taste and see that the Lord is good”
it’s testable…it’s knowable. He defines good behaviour for us based on His character. certain things are GOOD for us to do, certain things not. God is not a hypocrite.

#46

What does a sound byte from psalms have to do with what I asked?

Does God do good things or is it good because God does it?

#47

What on earth would cause you to believe you deserve to be eternally tortured, just neverending, on and on and on, no hope of escape… just on and on and on and on…???

:exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:

#48

I think this is an important topic, so I’ve started a thread in Philosophical to discuss this idea: God and Goodness

#49

Not torture but torment. Then what does a sinful, despicable wretch like me deserve without the favor of Gods grace? Do I even deserve God’s grace?

#50

a soundbyte? that’s in the Bible, mate :slight_smile: there’s no grey area around that.

God does good, because God has defined what goodness is. but it’s self-evident. it’s source is God, but it’s how He behaves.

why would God define good behaviour for us, and then turn around and do exactly the opposite? does He not say to love our enemies, forgive them, and bless them? why would He command such an impossible thing from us if He wasn’t able to bring it about in our hearts? more importantly, why would He define that as GOOD if He wasn’t the source of that same ethos?
the logic is flawed…

God says x is good and the opposite, not-x is bad
God does not-x
God is good
???

the above is deeply flawed. God has shown Himself (in this example) to be contradictory, and that in itself contradicts Scripture that says He cannot lie, and that He values the truth.

i could expand it slightly, in light of universalism:

God says murder is bad.
God commands Joshua to commit genocide.
the pain they endure is a momentary punishment for rejection of God.
Therefore God is just.
But: God will save the dead in the future, and means the punishment for their good.
They enter His glory and joy.
Therefore God is both just, and good, as defined by His own principles.

that is transparent…ie God doesn’t shroud Himself in mystery there.
He tells us how we should behave, proscribes discipline for when we don’t, pays the way for all (this is Scriptural) with Christ, and then works to save as many as will receive Him.

does He have the “right” to destroy us? well technically as our Creator…sure.
but i’d say He took on the role of Father who longs for the prodigal’s return (and waits as long as necessary), and the Good Shepherd who searches everywhere for that one sheep that has run away.

This would argue that “rights” don’t come into it. Love does not think of “rights”. Love thinks only of the wellbeing of the Loved.

universalism just says He will succeed, that the argument of “the Elect” becomes meaningless because EVERYONE is Elect.
Arminian views are also meaningless, ultimately, because everyone eventually chooses to accept Him.

To say, against all evidence, reason and Scripture, that God only loves a few of us, and we should be darn thankful He doesn’t let us all burn…that’s not helpful at best. at worst…

this is rather a pointless argument, to be honest. Calvinism is contradicted by too much Scripture, and limits God to an elitist being that doesn’t love all His creation, despite what the Bible says.

#51

torture:
a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain

torment:
2: extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : agony
3: a source of vexation or pain

Not sure what the difference is there. :question:

Either way…
Why do you view yourself as a sinful, despicable wretch? You are a creation of God. The creation is a reflection of the thing that created it. You are insulting your Creator when you call yourself a “sinful, despicable wretch worthy to be tormented forever”, my friend.

God subjected us to this futility… for a purpose.

When you view yourself as a “despicable wretch” you are admitting that you view others that way as well. If you cannot have compassion on yourself, if you cannot see your own value and worth, how will you have compassion on others? How will you see the value and worth in others? How will you follow God’s command to love your neighbor… AS yourself… if you have such a sad view of yourself? Love your neighbor as yourself. I hope that you soon start to see yourself as God sees you… as His beautiful, irreplacable, much loved child.

You see in the mirror very, very, very, very darkly.
I hope that God shines a little light in your room so you can see yourself more clearly.
A beautiful creation of God whom God is slowly refining and purifying.

with love,
sparrow

#52

In a nutshell God is holy and righteous and He can seek vengeance against His enemies and we can’t. God can do things we can’t because we are sinners. It’s true God doesn’t sin but you are confusing sin with what you perceive as bad behaviour whatever that means.

When God “commits genocide” that is not murder because God and God alone has the right to kill us. He shows justness by killing those people but at the same time shows grace because among those people are the “innocent” (children, mentally handicapped) in the eyes of God.
The children’s acts will not be held against them because they don’t know any better then what the disobedient adults have taught them so these children go to heaven whereas the disobedient adults go to hell.

I see this in scripture when God told Jonah, that He has people in the city of Ninevah who don’t know their left hand from their right.

#53

Read the song amazing grace, then ask me that again.

How else would I see myself in front of God’s perfect glory and perfect righteous? I know who I am. I know my thought life. If someone put a microchip in my brain and recorded every secret thing I have thought and done and then put it on the internet for everyone to see. Could I show my face again? Would my friends and family think I was a good person?

God gets glory by saving us but He gets more glory when He saves the worse humanity has to offer which displays His glory even brighter because God gets all the credit so in a sense God’s elect are the worse of the worse.

It is because I see myself as a sinful wretch that demonstrates to me I am without excuse and God is even greater in my eyes and want everything to do to please Him and be obedient towards Him even though many times I am not.

Most of all scripture says that I am.

#54

This idea is not found anywhere in Scripture. On the contrary, corpselight explains the Scriptural case pretty well–thumbs up to him! :smiley:

The story of Jonah and Ninevah says nothing about the eternal destination of children vis a vis adults. So you still haven’t shown any Scriptural support for that assertion.

Again, not Scripture–just the sentiments of Newton, a human (who can’t trust his fallen human logic, according to you).

Oxy, it’d be a lot easier for me (and probably others here, but I won’t assume anything) to take you seriously if you would provide some Scriptural support along with the assertions you give for the theological system of Calvinism. Have a good day! :slight_smile:

#55

If God is good, he is a good tree. If he is a good tree, he will bear good fruit by the sheer nature of being a good tree. You recognise a tree by its fruit. You recognise the Tree of Life by its Life-giving fruit whose leaves heal the nations.

God doing good for all he has created is the inevitable fruit of his being Good. Salvation for all mankind is the only consistent fruit to be seen of an Infinitely Good God who is also Infinitely Salvation, who created everyone.

If God didn’t save anyone, his faith would be dead being fruitless, the bible would be the grossest of lies, and if he didn’t save everyone but left the vast majority of his created children (of whom by no will of their own where thrust into the world, and made prone to sin shapen in iniquity) to be tortured or ceased to exist without hope or solace or redemption; that would not be the fruit of the Good God.

You’re reversing the whole paradigm. We base salvation of man (all mankind) on God’s goodness. This is Holy reasoning, that God is Good, and therefore all mankind that he has created shall be made good just as He is good, and not one will be left behind.

#56

I remember someone once asking on their blog why people were less offended by the notion of God sending everyone to hell then letting everyone into heaven. Anyway, I quite agree with you Oxy, that if God were to send us all to hell that would be fair. Looking at it objectively, it almost seems fairer to send everyone to hell than to actually pick people who will be saved and leave the rest to perdition. Thats one issue I’ve had with calvinism and I know salvation is a cause for celebration for those who are elect but its not so great for the non-elect.

#57

My friend I wouldn’t expect any different from you and your presupposition, allowing you to see what you want and disregarding the rest.

I didn’t say it did. I said in scripture God shows a saving grace for children. King David knew his dead baby would be in heaven. Jesus said, (paraphrasing) let the children come for such is the kingdom of heaven for. Jesus said, we must humble ourselves like a child.

Scripture is clear children do go to heaven.

#58

Thank you! That is why I give the gospel to those whom the Lord opens their eyes and ears. I don’t know who the elect are but my job is to share my faith to EVERYONE who will listen because the gospel is for EVERYONE but only His elect will believe. How does that make sense and can still hold on to an eternal hell doctrine? I have no idea but it’s in scripture and who am I to question scripture.

I will admit that at times it is quite hard especially when I see the people on the streets who have been shown little human compassion but I reassure myself that the reason it is hard is because my flesh is fighting with my spirit. There is a part of me that wants universalism to be true but it is an emotional part and not scriptural. I must hold on to scripture because scripture keeps me on the right path and it is all that I have.

I have a cousin who is like a brother to me and I tried to share the gospel. I have done what God ask of us to beg and plead with him to receive Christ and he would not.

(2 Corinthians 5:20)
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

As an elect myself who at times loses his assurance but not his salvation. I have to strive everyday and it is hard. Losing one’s assurance is torture, brings a man on the brink of tears. It is a horrid feeling. Jesus was right when He said,

(Luke 13:24)
24 Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

One of my favourite verses (I have many) that is so shocking yet telling is

(John 3:3-9)
4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old?

Jesus response
8"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Talk about the sovereignty of God not to mention the day of my salvation. I mean wow!

#59

:laughing:

OK, let’s see what you say. :wink:

No he didn’t. King David never said anything about heaven; he just said that where his baby was, he would eventually go too. His actions and statement are entirely consistent with someone who believes in a completely different afterlife than we Christians do, and need not imply anything other than going to the grave. My friend, it would appear that you are reading your presuppositions about heaven into David’s statement… :frowning:

I’m sorry, but I can’t see the logic here. Children are automatically in heaven when they die, because Jesus said that adults must humble themselves like a child? Or are you presupposing that children automatically go to heaven, and that’s why Jesus said that we must act like children? If that’s the reasoning, I don’t really understand how adults are supposed to do that. (On the other hand, we can understand that Jesus is trying to make a point about the necessity of humbly realizing that we don’t know much and need other people’s help to get into the kingdom)…

God bless! :slight_smile:

#60

You also have God. I have heard apologists say that our sense of right and wrong must come from somwhere, it doesn’t just occur in a big bang. I believe that God extends the His common grace to all people, which is why I have seen some of the most Christ-like behaviour coming from non-believers over that of professing believers. When my mother was diagnosed with cancer, she said to me that she wasn’t scared of dying but when she thought about leaving us, it devastated her and she was struggling to deal with it. When she confessed this to my sister’s father in law (who is a muslim), he said to her “Do you not think that God, that you trust is caring for you and loving you, is not also caring for and loving your children?”. This was a great challenge to my mother who was a christian strunggling with that part of her faith. I konw all people must have a saving relationship with God through Christ because that is what we were created for, but if I can see God at work in non-believers. how much more for a Spirit filled believer who has an active faith so don’t always dismiss your feelings if they match the spirit of Jesus (who wept over Jerusalem and grieved over people’s unbelief). Also, be careful not to allow scriptures to become your god.

#61

Well-put, Sarah! Although for some of us, we can let our particular interpretation of Scripture become our god–I know I have sometimes. :blush:

#62

You are not alone there Neal.