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Can we love yet dislike?

Practices Christian Living
#1

Can we love yet dislike?

  • Yes
  • No

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*This post by Jason is a reply to Pilgrim’s post here: Forgiveness...

I have split the discussion into another thread, as it has distracted from the OP. Thanks, Sonia*

Here are the comments (format slightly edited to make it easier to read) that sparked this thread:

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Thanks.

You’re shocked and terrified by nice thoughts? You think nice thoughts are complete cop-outs, and filthy sins, etc.?

Sounds like you don’t like those thoughts very much. :wink:

By the way, how much do you like those Calvinists you’re always ranting about (in rather similar terms)? Because unless you know someone very well, it’s psychologically very difficult (or even impossible) to distinguish between liking/not-liking them personally and liking/not-liking what they believe and how they act.

“Liking” or “not-liking” is an emotional response to a situation, and not necessarily an appropriate emotional response. “Loving” is an action, and most particularly the action of acting toward fulfilling fair-togetherness with another person. Hopefully “liking” will come to follow “loving” eventually, as emotions should properly follow actions, but we’re called to love people even when we don’t like them yet; just like we’re expected to love people even if we have to be angry at them sometimes. When you choose to behave well towards the ‘other’, that’s loving them, whether you emotionally happen to like them to this or that degree or not.

Then you should have had exactly no problem with what I wrote, since I went on to clarify that it’s unChristian “if I start thinking in terms of them always being that way” i.e. in a way that I cannot currently like them.

If you hadn’t been reaching so hard to find something to oppose me about (which doesn’t seem much like either loving or liking), you might have been able to see what I meant.

But instead you decided to straw man me in response to that quote (which should have been sufficient at least as a clue to explain what I meant):

Nope. I’ll love them even when I don’t like them yet, which means loving them even when I feel (rightly or wrongly) there’s something about them unperfect. You’re the one insisting on the necessary equivalence of love/like, not me, so don’t put words in my mouth that are the opposite of what I actually said in order to criticize me.

(Out of curiosity, how many other people here thought I meant that it was Christian never to hope or expect to like people I don’t currently like?)

''more like Jesus''
''more like Jesus''
#2

:open_mouth:

#3

I said “It’s a nice thought but it’s a cop out”

No. I’m shocked by thoughts which are, at a very base level, nice and appealing to one’s ego, one’s selfish nature, but are quite obviously not what Jesus calls us to do.

Some are. For instance, if I have a very ‘nice’/pleasant/pleasurable thought about an attractive lady, say, for instance, I fantasize that she is my beloved when the truth is she is not, then I think that thought is a filthy sin.

My carnal nature might like the idea of being able to love whilst not liking (ie whilst hating) but it is really my carnal self justifying a sin.

I think you need to calm down Jason. “Always” is just not true. “Ranting” is just not civil discussion from a member let alone an administrator, and “In similar terms” - I don’t know what you mean. Similar to what?
Truth is that I loath some ideas, some concepts that are promoted by Calvinists and that is what I attack. Neither do I pretend (at the same time) to Love those ideas. However, I do not dislike the people who hold to those views. I know several and I have great affection for them. They are lost souls for whom Jesus died.

I can only imagine that you are speaking from your own experience. For the mature mind it is a simple matter to distinguish between the ideas and the soul behind the ideas. As for myself, I can assure you, you are wrong.

I agree that a person’s emotional response may sometimes be inappropriate - I don’t think we have to look far to see example of that! :smiley: .

Again, as in the past, your definition of ‘Love’ is inadequate and if you must use a term that you have invented ( ‘fair-togetherness’) then I think it needs defining first.

Well, obviously, this is where I disagree and stating your position a second or third time does not further the discussion or make it any more true.

‘Should’? Where do you get this idea from?

Do you have a scripture to support this idea of yours?

The anger should be aimed at what the person did, not the person themselves. Are you saying that whilst a mother is angry that her child stole a chocolate, that the mother dislikes the child? This is a very revealing post.

Completely untrue. Many people will do favours in order to manipulate or secure some selfish benefit.

that does not follow, I have great problem with what you wrote.

-and that illustrates precisely the problem I have, and how differently the two of us think. It is my aim and Christlike duty to love/like them as they are and not just because of what they might turn into.

Jason, this really is uncalled for and is not in the spirit of this forum. I would have posted exactly as I did regardless of who had posted it and you are mistaken about me. I’m sorry to say that your statement reveals more about yourself than anything else. Any past differences we may have had are, to my mind, exactly that! A thing of the past! Dead and gone! There is a richness in my life which doesn’t allow room to harbour any grudge against you. Clearly, for you, such past differences are foremost in your mind.

I saw exactly what you meant and disagree strongly with it. This is confirmed by your latest ‘clarification’ (which just confirmed what I already understood) and I still disagree.

That is not a strawman, it is a question and the question remains because you have restated that you will only like them when they have changed into… into… into… only you know what but obviously they have to become something likeable to you.

So you repeat what I regard as error.
I would ask of you, does this mean that you feel no Godly desire to try to like them just as they are?

But I am saying that it is not possible to genuinely love them without liking them as well.

Very true.

I have not put words into your mouth. All I can imagine is that you have some strong emotion clouding your ability to clearly read what I have posted. I suggest that you read through these posts again when you are feeling calm.

Well, I for one don’t think you meant that and have never suggested it.
A cup of tea might be beneficial.
God bless

P.S. I was wondering if it would be correct to start another thread entitled “Can we love yet dislike?” because I would love to hear other people’s views on this rather than just Jason and myself, and I don’t want to derail the thread, but having considered the title of the present thread, I think the last couple of posts are very much on topic.

#4

I wonder if we’re all agreed on what like means?

To me it means to enjoy someone’s company – more or less in the same way I enjoy a juicy pear. I’m not likely to enjoy the company of someone who hates me and treats me with contempt, for example. That doesn’t let me off loving them or treating them with the respect due to a human being, but emotionally, I’m not sure God expects us to enjoy everyone.

It seems to me, reading your post, Pilgrim, that you might define like differently than I define it?

Love in Jesus, Cindy

#5

I’m with you on this one, Cindy. :slight_smile:

#6

I really appreciate you ( Cindy and Ed) joining this discussion on whether we are called to ‘like’ as well as ‘love’.

Good thought. There are different meanings to ‘like’:

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana.

-but I think it helpful to limit our considerations to specifically when we are referring to people or souls.
For me, liking a soul is the emotional confirmation that I might be on the right path towards having a genuine love for them and that I genuinely MIGHT put the others welfare above that of my own.
Yes, I struggle with this ‘high calling’. If I didn’t, then I would be perfect, but my spirit tells me that I cannot pretend to myself that I can dislike a soul and, at the same time, have a genuine Godly love for them.
I would also point out that this positive emotional attachment is found in scripture.
Jesus WEPT for Jerusalem as a mother over wayward children (Hen/chickens) and he was weeping for those whom He knew were going to murder Him.
St Paul tells us that actions without the spirit of love (ie the emotion in context) are worthless (1Cor 13).

Firstly, lets not replace ‘like’ with ‘enjoy’ because, in this context, I don’t see any difference, do you?

So, if I take you right (and forgive me if I don’t), you’re saying that to LIKE somebody means “to LIKE their company”

-now see how you’ve subtly shifted the object from the ‘person’ to the ‘company’ of the person’?

Surely the two statements cannot be identical can they?

We are discussing what it means to LIKE someone, and you are now talking about whether you LIKE something else (ie their company).

I think this clouds the waters. The truth is, take someone whom I love more than anyone else in this world (apart from myself of course). Now say that I am in their company, they are wide awake and keen to talk whilst I have had 5 day’s sleep deprivation. At that time, do I LIKE their company? Obviously not. But do I LIKE them? Yes, yes, yes, with all my heart.

An extreme example of course Cindy, but it DOES prove the point.

I think Satan would LIKE nothing better than to give us the idea that we can dislike a particular soul, whilst at the same time Loving them with agape Love.

Oh, if the christ-‘like’ path were only that easy!

I’d appreciate your thoughts Cindy. I never cease to learn from you.

God bless

#7

Pilgrim, you wrote:

But you see, this is precisely my point. You and I (and I suspect others as well) have a subtly different take on this word/emotion of “liking.” I like apples; I do not like okra. I will eat okra and do my best to enjoy it because I know it’s extremely good food, but if I’m honest, I don’t like it. It’s slimy and feels like, well . . . snot. I appreciate okra and I have (I think) a positive emotional attitude toward it. It’s a gift of God as part of the food He provides to nourish those who dwell on the earth. I am grateful to Him for it and I acknowledge that many people like okra; I don’t think it odd that they should.

I hesitate to compare something as trivial as a food preference to something as important as a relationship with another human, but in truth, to everyone I know well, that’s what the word “like” means. Others may see it as you do, but I don’t know them well enough to have discovered this about them.

There is a brother I’m thinking of (no one here) who I love dearly and appreciate with all my heart. I feel warmly toward him and would do anything in my power to help him and/or his family. Yes, I can say with conviction that I genuinely love him. But if you were to press me on it, I’d have to admit I don’t like him very much. I don’t want to expose his faults even though I have no intention of naming him, but they’re actually fairly slight and no doubt related to his youth. I forgive him with all my heart. But he rubs me the wrong way.

And this is a slight example. There are certainly people out there I would have a more difficult time loving and “liking” than this dear brother. But the thing I’m trying to get across is that I feel sure you and I are working from a different (slightly or greatly) definition of what it means to like someone.

Honestly, Brother, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a husband to like (using my definition) the unrepentant man who has seduced his wife. Should he ask him to go hang out with him at the pub and have a pint or two and chat like chums? Now he may come to have warm feelings toward him and genuinely desire his good. He may be willing and eager to pray for this person and even to work for his good.

But while Jesus wept for Jerusalem, it was His own disciples’ company He sought out in His last hours of freedom. He left Jerusalem every evening; He would not spend the night there. He chose Bethany instead, where there were people He enjoyed being with, or even the great out-of-doors – but not Jerusalem. If He liked the Pharisees (by my definition of “like”), He would have carved out some time to do things with them (other than deride them at every opportunity).

I don’t care about semantics unless they threaten relationships or understanding between us. It doesn’t matter to me how we define a word, so long as we all understand one another. I’ve read Jason’s definition of “fair-togetherness,” but that’s been a while ago, and I’d like to see it again. I suspect that it would be somewhat analogous to your definition of what it means to “like someone.”

Love always in Jesus,
Cindy

#8

The way I see it is that love/like go hand in hand. Just as hate/dislike go hand in hand. Just my opinion.

#9

Hi. I’m just going to throw this out there, it may help shape this thread, it may not. Let the chips fall where they may. I have a very close friend…My “best” friend for the past 14 years. We’ve shared everything, good times and bad. I LOVE her VERY MUCH, but the fact is that she treats me very badly sometimes. Looking back, I could make a case that she’s emotionally abusive. I’ve talked to her many times about her behavior towards me, but it’s like talking to a wall. Anyway, my point: I LOVE HER, BUT IT’S IRRELEVANT because I can’t have a relationship with her that doesn’t make me feel like a doormat. I took it for years thinking I was being the bigger person, etc. But, since turning 40, something big has happened in me that just can’t do it anymore. I realized it’s costing me something I can’t give: My integrity. I stopped pursuing the relationship 6 months ago. I’m nice to her if I see her, but I don’t initiate any communication with her. It’s SUCKS! It hurts! But, it might be the most mature thing I’ve ever done for myself. I feel like a huge burden has been lifted off of me. Over the course of my life, people have come and gone. Few, have stayed. The fact is that relationships are more transient than we’d like. I’d love to have a “best friend forever”…I just can’t bring myself to be so naive anymore. Nothing here is ours to keep.

#10

Hi again Cindy:

In your previous post, and in this post (which I have read) it seems to me that you and I are using the word ‘like’ to mean exactly the same thing. Of course, I could be wrong.

What you seem to be saying is that you like okra because it does you good but you do not like the TASTE of okra, nor the TEXTURE of okra.

I have to say, getting back to people, that I do not think we are just dealing with semantics. I think we are dealing with a very important issue which goes to the heart of christian living and may also impinge on the other thread on marriage and divorce.
If I do not like my partner, but I feel ok with that because I can convince myself that my dislike does not affect my Godly LOVE for him/her, then I can convince myself that it is not I who needs to make any change, after all, I am loving with agape love, no, the fault lies with my partner, and it is him/her that needs to change.
If however, I believe that the very essence of every living soul is a reflection of God, and that all the faults we all possess are not our REAL essence, then it is I who needs to change. It is I who need to learn to see others with the eyes of Christ, who needs to learn to look beyond the personality defects, the scars of abuse in childhood, the weaknesses and frailties, the illusions which are not the REAL person, I need to learn to see the soul for whom Christ died.
St Paul had every reason to dislike his fellow Jewry but throughout his writings and the NT in general, we can FEEL the emotion of Love eg when Paul says he wish himself accursed for the sake of his brethren, it is impossible to think that he was feeling ‘dislike’ towards them .

I think you and I see it identically.

Anything? Including trying to like him?

When I have found someone who knows how to “press my buttons”, I think my dislike is really because either knowingly or unknowingly, he reveals my own weaknesses. This person manages to show me that I am not perfect. When I realise that, then I realise that what I ACTUALLY dislike is that particular weakness within myself whcih that person exposes. I then feel that I can Love that ‘button presser’ more and understand that it is my own sin which I dislike (just as Paul).

And there always will be, and I’m not suggesting that I am any better than anyone else, but I think learning to LIKE these folk is what spiritual maturity is all about (and what I’m so far from).

Possibly, but I don’t see it.
I think it is our calling to learn to find pleasure in the company of anyone (who is not actively and obviously sinning) because their essence is God Himself.

You are right. It is completely unreasonable buts since when was God reasonable? What is reasonable about grace?

Not until he has found that forgiveness which only comes from God and only then if He believes it is what God would have him do.

Including the company of Judas. The problem with your statement is that you are assuming that He sought their company because He disliked those for whom He wept. I do not believe this and I see no scriptural evidence to support it.
Have you accepted that Jesus liked those people in Jerusalem who were going to kill Him? (The ones for whom He wept as a mother for wayward children?)

He would have been arrested.

At ALL times, all He ever did was the will of His Father. It had nothing to do with what He enjoyed.

I’m sure he spent a lot of time with many pharisees including Joseph of Arimethea. I don’t know how you can support the statement you have made. I believe that He came to earth to do the will of His Father and that He spent time with all sorts of people. Obviously, it was essential that He should be close to His disciples who would carry on His work after He had gone.

I agree.
I don’t think we are dealing with semantics.
I DO believe that we are discussing a very important aspect of Christian life

I think we DO understand each other and it seems that I have a different view of the task which God lays before us.

So would I. As far as I know, the term is an invention of Jason’s and I do not understand what it means.

I think that my definition of ‘liking someone’ is identical to yours. Form everything you’ve said that seems to be the case.

I’d like to thank Sonia for creating this thread as I had hoped.
Sonia:
Is there any chance we could have a poll at the top of this thread to test views on the title question?

God bless us all as we try to learn from each other.

#11

I’m with you on that Cole.
I think anything else is wishful thinking (or a ‘nice thought’ as I put it earlier and got into trouble for).

#12

Hello sass

Firstly let me say that it was Cindy who identified ‘liking’ with ‘liking the company of’ and I pointed out that I was not happy with that.
What I am saying is that wanting to be in the company of is not a litmus test for liking.
For example, I like chocolate a lot! I do not want to be in the company of chocolate. I know it is bad for me and, though I like it, it would be advantageous for me if there was a million miles between the two of us.

Although my example was trivial, I hope that I have not trivialised your predicament. It seems to me that you DO like AND love your ‘best friend’ but (just as my chocolate) she is dangerous to your health and well-being. I am sure that you are doing the right thing. The fact that you feel as if a huge burden has been lifted confirms that it was the right decision.
I pray that God will continue to bless you just as I am blessed by your ministry here.

How terrifyingly true.

#13

Hi, John (I saw someone else call you that – I hope it’s right?)

I’m not going to pick apart your entire answer; I’ll concentrate on this one point only. Otherwise it’s just too hard for me to hold it all in my mind.

You said:

To make it easier for myself to visualize this idea, I’m going to posit a hypothetical example.

Suzy is at the mall with her husband Tom, and a female friend of his named Nancy. Nancy has her arm around Tom, and is nuzzling his neck. Is Suzy not obligated to enjoy Nancy’s company? Is Nancy not made in the image of God? Is her essence not God Himself? How does her active and obvious sin let Suzy off liking her and finding pleasure in her company?

Now you say above that it isn’t necessary for Suzy to enjoy the company of someone who is actively and obviously sinning. But you require that loving entails liking. Suzy IS obligated to love Nancy. Jesus says clearly that we must love our enemies and Nancy is CLEARLY Suzy’s enemy at this point, therefore Suzy must love Nancy. If loving requires liking, then Suzy must like Nancy. If liking Nancy means finding pleasure in her company, then Suzy must enjoy Nancy’s company – at all times.

On the other hand, if loving does not ALWAYS require liking, then Suzy, who must love Nancy, is not obliged to enjoy Nancy’s company (to like her). And if loving does not always require liking, then at what point does loving begin to require liking? Is Suzy not required to like Nancy the next time she sees her alone, not in the presence of Tom and therefore not openly and actively sinning (though Nancy and Tom are still an “item”? Let’s say that Nancy invites Suzy to have tea with her and chats pleasantly about inconsequential things? Suzy is required to enjoy that, since Nancy is not, at this moment, sinning? And while we might forgive Suzy for struggling, it SHOULD and MUST be her goal to enjoy Nancy’s company at any moment in which Nancy is not openly and actively sinning because Nancy’s essence is God Himself.

You know, John, you are I are going to have to disagree on this one. It simply makes no sense to me to require that “love” MUST entail “like.” Love is more than warm, fuzzy emotions. It is that, ideally, but it is a great deal more. The essence of love, to me, is self-sacrifice; pouring oneself out for the beloved, desiring the best for the one loved. It does not require any pleasure on the side of the one giving the love. Hopefully there is the anticipation of pleasure once the relationship is restored, but love requires the good of the beloved, and that is true even if there is no hope of a restored relationship. I will agree that love must entail the willingness to like, but I don’t agree that we cannot love without simultaneously liking.

So yeah . . . agreeing to disagree – at least on this end.

Blessings, Cindy

#14

I think this whole discussion is really a matter of semantics.

In his post that started this discussion, Pilgrim equates love with like and dislike with hate:

It seems to me that this is the root of Pilgrim’s objection to Jason’s post. Jason was making a distinction between like and love, and was not using them synonymously, but to Pilgrim they are essentially the same. Nor was Jason using ‘dislike’ as an euphemism for hate.

If there is an essential disagreement that goes beyond semantics, the semantics are obscuring it.

My husband and I have had some lengthy arguments – only to discover that we mostly meant the same thing and were primarily objecting to the way the other was saying it.

Here’s a definition of ‘like’ from Dictionary.com:

To me, this is not the same as ‘love’ and I would not agree with the idea that ‘dislike’ is a euphemism for hate. I agree that people might use it that way, but it doesn’t follow that everyone does use it that way.

There are people I do not take pleasure in or find agreeable or congenial – generally because they are unpleasant, disagreeable and uncongenial. I can still love them.

There are people I do not regard with favor or find attractive, though I might still have a kindly or friendly feeling for them. I can still love them.

Sonia

#15

I can’t dislike someone and love them at the same time. Neither can I hate someone but like them at the same time. I can, however, like someone and not love them. That’s just me though.

#16

As I see it, you love someone when you serve them and attend to their needs. The opposite of “love” is not “hate” but “self-service.” There seems to be two distinct groups of people in the world — those who serve others, and those who serve themselves. So, we should love all people, be willing to serve them, including those whom we dislike. Jesus told his disciples to love their enemies. I’m sure many of their enemies were of such a nature that it would be difficult or impossible to LIKE them.

There is biblical instruction, not only to love, but also to like. Paul told Titus that the older women were to teach what is good, and so train the younger women to LIKE their husbands and children. (Titus 2:4)

#17

Thanks, Sonia – that’s what I’ve been trying to say, and so much more clearly than I ever managed it! :slight_smile:

Paidion – that’s really great that you posted that Titus passage. I looked, and couldn’t figure out what to search for. I didn’t think to look for “friend.” Thanks!

#18

Many thanks to Sonia and Paidon for wading in.

Just a small point of clarification first. I don’t see like and love as synonymous. I see love as a subset of like ie love being a stronger term than like.

I am going to use ‘like’ in the accepted and popular sense of the word below:

There are quite a few people that I struggle to like, but I see it as my Godly duty to try to like them. This, in essence, is what I am getting at. What I mean is that I should work to try to see the goodness hidden deep inside of them despite many obstacles because I think that whilst I harbour any feelings of ‘dislike’ towards them, I am not able to love them AS MUCH as I could.

Two question to all:

Do you think I am wasting my time, that I am wrong to do the above? Because that is the feeling I get from the posts.

Second question:
When Jesus wept for those in Jerusalem who were rejecting Him, this clearly shows that His emotions were TOWARDS them. Are you saying that, at the same time as He was weeping for these people, that He was capable of disliking them?

God bless

#19

Cindy,

I am with you on your quote below:

While staying at the Holy Cross monastery West Park (NY) some 50 years ago, a monk told me something that I have always remembered since.

“The hardest thing, Michael, in our lives here? Living together! What binds us together is Love, overcomes the dislikes one may have due to any number of petty reasons, which, without Love. could boil up and make life impossible in such a closed community. Love allows us to live with and, in the end, overcome the dislikes. That is why we all get to like each other. It can often take time.”

He cited a personal experience of his own very similar to the one you, Cindy, are experiencing, where the brother rubs you the wrong way, and yet you forgive him and love him, even tho you don’t like him very much! In the monk’s case eventually he got to like his fellow monk.

Godspeed

Michael in Barcelona

#20

Pilgrim,

Thanks for your clarifications. It’s hard to keep up with the semantical distinctions that seem to be going on here. But I sympathize with your view that the ideal way to love is to sense a “liking” for someone. Brennan Manning a said that he would say to God, “I know you love me, that’s your job. But do you like me?” (I think in an important sense the answer is yes, even when God hated his human actions) I do wonder if some are expressing wariness about “trying to like someone” and how this would be achieved. But your suggestion of “trying to see the goodness (and worth) hidden deep inside them” (or underneath the obviously perverse things about them) is actually the approach that is helpful to me. It’s also easier for me to “like” someone despite their deeds and errors, when I recognize the pressures and hurts that may have strongly shaped what they do and think. I do sympathize with those who don’t want to let an ongoing failure to much like someone postpone the priority of acting toward them in a loving way that seeks their welfare. But I assume that you agree with doing that even as we also seek to develop a heart with actual affection toward them.