The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Challenge

What? sounds like salvation to me??? Show me the verse in Scripture one cannot confess and repent after he is raised from the dead. Ooops, there are none. Why would people submit to Jesus and worship him if they know he is just going to light them on fire and watch them burn forever while keeping them alive? Ridiculous! People will do so because they will finally relise he really is the lamb of God who took away the si of the world , and the only rational and right thing to do is love and obey him!

Another angle and a deeper and fuller understanding of Phil 2:10-11** is the authority of the name of Jesus and our actual authority in Jesus as believers when we accept him as Lord and Savior** as Paul described in Ephesians 1:19-23. Can you see the similarity? Phil 2:10-11 has nothing to do with everyone accepting salvation.

I will show you more than that: Matt 25: 31-46; John 5:28-29 and Rev 20:11-15. Read the plague after plague and disaster after disaster and Jesus’ triumphant return in Revelation. Phil 2:10-11 has everything to do with the authority in the name of Jesus, and as believers having that same authority and has absolutely nothing to do with everyone receiving salvation. Paul describes this authority in Eph 1:19-23.

I think the texts indicate it will be ongoing that all confess (which can only be done by the Holy Spirit) and when the last one does, Christ can offer up the kingdom (he too offers himself in submission and that’s not argued as ‘forced’ submission) and God becomes all in all.

At the end of the day we will arrive at the usual impasse (this is not unique to you and me just the way of opposing points of view). You will see limited atonement based on free will acceptance, I will see God’s will to restore the sinner (and who will never give up no matter how long the sinner holds out) and the will of God not being eternally overridden by free will. The best of debates rarely changes anyone’s mind. No one here (not even me) argues with you that each individual has to apply the work of Christ to themselves to realise the benefits - just that you see some being lost forever and the UR supporters don’t. The mechanism is agreed by both sides :smiley: just the scope is different. Sodom and Gomorragh being restored to their former estate withtheir sister Israel.

As for authority - it is the authority to rule with Christ - who are you going to rule - other rulers (other christians), do you get to take it in turns ruling each other, or are you going to rule sinners and help them come to repentance? The firstfruits guarantee the rest of the harvest - who is the rest of the harvest? Why are the trees of life placed either side of the river with leaves for the healing of the nations?

Let’s hear what other members have to contribute :slight_smile:

Revival,

Can you show me scriptural support for your assertion that “Philippians 2:10-11 is not a confession unto salvation”?

Please apply the same standard you require from everyone else to the specific verse that will limit the Philippians confession to your stated definition.

Love the way you ignored the rest of my post. You know, the part that gives you scriptural support for UR. There is nothing wrong with asking for scriptural support, and I gave one of hundreds of verses, and you proved my point of the strawman by ignoring the scripture that I supplied and arguing, in essence, unless it says what I want it to say then it is not proof. Your argument is the same as saying I wont believe in the trinity unless there is a bible verse that says “God exists in three eternal persons that are co-equal as the one true God.” Do you believe in the trinity? How about you answer Colossians one and the argument that I made?

The subject Paul is teaching is in Phil 2 is not salvation eventually for everyone but the authority in the name of Jesus after his resurrection relative to the authority we have in Jesus as believers. This is supported in Eph 1 :19-23.

If you don’t understand that the subject of the verse relative to the chapter giving contextual continuity then you are in :sunglasses: trouble, my friend.

Revival,

You are making a bold assertion with far-reaching implications regarding Philippians 2.

Please provide a specific verse that specifically states that Philippians 2 is not a confession unto salvation.

Otherwise it could be possible that the “contextual continuity” you refer to as your only defense is based on nothing more than the traditions of man built upon a foundation of sinking sand.

Equal weights and measures my friend.

Sooo, back to the original topic . . . names in the Book of Life . . . What if the only name written there is JESUS? When you enter into Christ, Whoa! Yeah! That’s my name. It’s analogous to the marriage covenant, after all. My name is Skillman, but it hasn’t always been. If it says “Skillman” in the book, that’s me, just as it is my husband.

Even if not, It isn’t a big deal for God to write a new name into the Book, and for Him to do it before time began. God isn’t restricted to our narrow three-dimensional existence. After all, He wrote our names in before time began, and unless you’re a strict Calvinist (which I guess “Revival” is), that requires a bit of maneuvering. Not to mention placing us into Christ at the crucifixion when we were born around two thousand years later. Yes, I realize one could take this metaphorically, but to tell the truth, I’m not sure it isn’t a literal spiritual reality (not dogmatic on that). Even so, if we’re to take Revelation literally, I suppose we have to take the entire Bible literally.

I’m not writing this as a debate point, btw, unless someone wants to actually engage my points with relevant counterpoints. I didn’t look up the scriptures, and I’m not in formal debate mode here. Just conversation for those interested in genuine conversation. :wink:

Love in Him, Cindy

Revi might be right in that this isn’t a picture of people getting saved, now that I think about it. but they are showing that they are saved, by their confession. Remember that no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit!
So technically he may be correct that it is not a confession UNTO salvation, but it doesn’t help his case, because obiously they are all saved anyhow, when it happened is irrelevant, all will be believers someday, and as a result they will bow the knee and confess Jesus to the glory of the Father!

Michael,

I suspect you are right.

I’m attempting to get Revival to apply the same standard of judgement to his (her?) Phil 2 assertion that he is requiring of everyone answering his Challenge.

Revival would have to reject his Phil 2 claim if he applied his own standard of evaluation - (show me the specific verse stating specifically that ____ is or is not true).

It’s impossible to have a meaningful discussion when different standards are applied.

OK, got it :slight_smile:
I did the same thing sort of, I know he believes in free will. I challenge him to show where free will is taught in scripture. I understand it may be inferred from scripture, but according to his standard, it must be explicitly taught, or it must be false! :wink:

Not really, but specific scripture would be Phil 2:5-12. i’m not going to break down every scripture for you but if you keep it context it does not support UR.

Revi might be right in that this isn’t a picture of people getting saved, now that I think about it. but they are showing that they are saved, by their confession. Remember that no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit!
So technically he may be correct that it is not a confession UNTO salvation, but it doesn’t help his case, because obiously they are all saved anyhow, when it happened is irrelevant, all will be believers someday, and as a result they will bow the knee and confess Jesus to the glory of the Father!

Not really, but you are allowed to show scripture support of anyone exiting the lake of fire and being found recorded in the book of life before Revelation. I suspect you will run into the same problem as you did trying to find support for it after Rev 20:11-15. Why do you think that is? :unamused:

Hey Michael and davidbo
Can you guys bring the convo back to the OP. Thanks guys.

Since Revival hasn’t answered Colossians, I’ll say it again:

Colossians 1:15 ff we learn that “all things” were created by, for, and through Christ. Paul is exhaustive in his explanation of what “all things” means and it turns out that he really does mean “all things”. Then he says an amazing thing in verse 19ff, he tells us that the same “all things” will be “reconciled” to Him through Christ making peace through the blood of his cross.

Reconcile, peace, blood, cross. All things. Paul tells us in clear, straightforward terms that God reconciles his entire creation to himself through Christ! You show me a person that spends an eternity in hell and you are showing me a person who is NOT reconciled to God through Christ, having peace with him through the blood of his cross. Obviously, this punishment doesn’t last forever, otherwise Paul would be lying to us. Besides, God tells us many times in scripture that he doesn’t reject or cast off anyone forever or remain angry at man forever. It’s not in his nature or character.

Hi Cindy
Again, I’m not a Calvinist. I don’t believe ones name is written in the book of life before time began.( because some christians are blotted out of the book of life). The book of Revelation is symbolic with a literal meaning. God bless.

I think you meant verse 20. Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Where in this verse does it say all things Under the earth? How about the billions of people who are in hell? Are they not under the earth?