The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Defending UR On The Christian Post

Today Phillip MacDonald shared on another thread a fine blog article called False Teachers, False Prophets, Heretics and Wolves, by George Sarris, an open Universalist.
You can check out Phillip’s thread to read it if you haven’t already, it’s quite good. :slight_smile:

Anyways, I decided to message George on Facebook and he accepted my friend request, and I tried to defend him on the blog, here was my first comment:


"Hi, my name’s Matt. I’ve just recently come to embrace the hope of universal reconciliation in Christ, and I believe this is the direction God is leading me in, and an answer to many tearful and desperate prayers over the years…
Stating that fact alone, sadly, will probably get me a few, if not many, disagrees on here. :confused:
I would say this though:
If any of you knew how much I’ve wrestled with and agonized over the years because of the doctrine of everlasting hell, and the picture of God that it painted in my heart and mind, you might have more sympathy and understanding towards what I now believe…
There are many who have suffered emotional and mental turmoil, like I have, because of these things…
While some debate these ideas, trying to win arguments and defend their positions, others struggle deeply with the true implications of these ideas, wondering if they can really trust God, with their lives, with their hearts, with their futures, and with the future of the world they live in, and if He really loves them and those around them, and is as compassionate and gracious as they’ve been told…
Whether or not you agree is one thing… but when there are those who have suffered deeply because of the fears and doubts brought about by these ideas, shouldn’t you love your neighbor, be gracious to them, rather than attack them or scold them or condemn them?
Disagree if you wish, but Jesus calls us to love our enemies (which could include anyone we disagree with) which means to some extent respecting them and caring for them… and that’s clear, and not something any of us should ignore.
Easier said than done of course, but it’s clear.
With that said, I think what George had to say was thought-provoking, and heartfelt as well, and for those of you who disagree with what he believes, but have still shown him respect and compassion, I commend you. :slight_smile:
But those of you who would condemn him… guys, honestly, he just lost a close friend because of what he believes, and he’s sharing from his heart about that, and his heart is broken because of it… is it really loving to throw salt on the wound by condemning him for what he believes? Do you believe that is something Jesus would do? Isn’t the Lord near to those who are brokenhearted and crushed in spirit?
I know that there will be some here who will click ‘disagree’ just because they disagree with my beliefs about God and His plan for humankind, and that’s your decision, and I respect that, but please don’t click disagree because you think it’s okay to dogpile on someone who’s hurting. :confused:
Because it’s not. :confused:
Just give this some thought, okay?
May Jesus be our peace, and break down all the walls of hostility.


In response to this, I got a semi-positive response from a guy named John, who basically said that though he didn’t agree with my conclusions, he still sympathized. I thanked him for that. :slight_smile:

But the other two comments were less positive… so here was my response to them:


From star2: edwardtulane82 - Are you really born-again? Please share your testimony on how you came to faith in Jesus Christ and how He changed your life after you believed and presumably received Him as Savior and Lord.

To star2 - star2 - I would have to tell you a long, drawn out, up and down story, which I really don’t have the time to tell. But I’ll try to summarize…
Suffice it to say that I started out as an atheist/agnostic who hated Christianity, but then things started happening in my life that convinced that God was real, and that I was wrong… and as for Jesus, I believe that He is the Son of God, the Savior of the world, and Lord of all, and I was drawn to Him because in Him I saw that God knows how we feel, what the struggle of being a human being is like, and cares and understands and can be trusted…

I came to see this gradually… I’ve prayed for salvation, for Him to come into my heart, all those things that people say you’re supposed to do… but I think He chose me, and that matters more then my choosing Him… but this simple faith that I was given was often clouded over by those things about God that I didn’t understand, places in the Bible where God seemed cold and mean (I’m seeing that differently now), things people said in church or in other books, and most of all, more than anything, the doctrine of everlasting hell, and the perception that doctrine gave me of God…

I have many family and friends who are not believers, and I care about what happens to them, and I couldn’t understand why God didn’t seem to… the whole thought of God giving up on anyone never made sense to me, namely because He hadn’t given up on me, and I was left wondering ‘why me, and not them?’ So sometimes I’d be scared, or angry, or confused about the whole thing… and I wrestled deeply with it all, more deeply then probably any of you here ever have… and I am not saying that to impress you or anyone else…
I wouldn’t want you or anyone else to suffer like I’ve suffered because of these things… wouldn’t wish that on anyone… and this lasted for a number of years up until recently, when I gradually came to believe in universal reconciliation… and now that anxiety and fear and lack of trust in God is fading…

I know that some of you here think that I’m on the wrong path, and question whether God is leading me in this, but I’ll tell you this… the ‘gospel’ plus ECT was never really ‘good news’ to me, and only ever brought me despair… and I’m not going back there.
For my own sanity’s sake, I just can’t.

But I believe that this is part of the answer to all those lonely, desperate cries and prayers over the years, and you may not think so, but I do, and with all due respect, you can’t this hope away from me, no matter how much you may want to.
You are, you are all, just as human as I am, and don’t know everything, nor understand everything, anymore then I do, not about God or Scripture or life, or me for that matter.
Your view of God is just your view, just as mine is mine.
Your interpretation of Scripture is just interpretation, just as mine is.
Your outlook on life is limited to your own perspective, just as mine is.
And my story runs deeper then you can see, just as I’m sure your story runs deeper then I can see.

This is all a matter of faith, not sight. None of us now for absolutely sure what is behind the veil, what death will bring.
We have no absolute proof, no matter how much we would like to think we do. If we did, there would be no need for faith. And we only have faith, not sight… at least not yet. It’s like making a wager, a modified Pascal’s wager.

I wager on a good God who’s righteousness and mercy kiss each other, who’s justice and grace go hand in hand, and all for one purpose… to set the captives free, which is all of us, everyone, and to make all things new…

If God could love and redeem a messed up guy like me, then He can love and redeem anyone… and everyone… and if all things are possible with Him, and if He is willing that all will come to Him, and be reconciled with Him, as the Scriptures seem to indicate, then I believe He can do that, and though you may not agree with that, you can’t really say for sure that it could never happen, because you don’t know everything, don’t have God all figured out anymore than I do, because you’re just a man like me.

So as for me, I’m going to take a shot and believe in something that gives me hope and makes sense to me, rather then try to keep forcing myself to believe in something that doesn’t make sense to me and leads me to despair… you may think that’s naive, or silly, or that I’m misguided, or deceived, but did you ever dream of wonderful and beautiful things when you were a child? Did you ever wonder?

I think many of those in the church today have lost that sense of wonder, the childlike faith that is open to possibilities, to what may seem like impossibilities, because our God, as we know, is a God of the impossible…

But we can still wonder and hope like we did as children… many of our hopes are shattered throughout our lives, but if our hope is in God, should we be afraid of that?
Should we be afraid that He will disappoint us, or that He will break His promises?
He says that His love never fails, and that He is mighty to save.

I am willing to take Him at His word in these things… I have prayed for the salvation of all, as have many others throughout history… will God ignore those pleas, will He give us something less then what we ask for?
Isn’t He the One who gives us more then we can ask or imagine, not less?

Just as Paul was willing that he would be cut off for the sake of Israel, I am willing to be cut off for the sake of my family and my friends, and even for everyone.
I would be willing to stand in the gap, just as Abraham did for Sodom, just as Moses did for Israel, and as Paul did as well…

And perhaps this is what God is looking for… people who love mercy… ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice…’ People who are willing to stand up for those who are lost and not yet found, who are far from God and need to be brought near…

Do you care about what happens to humanity? If you do, then how much more do you imagine God does? And if He cares so much, and has the power to save everyone, who are any of us to be totally closed to the possibility that He actually will, that the good news really is good news of great joy for all people, that Jesus came to save everyone, including me, and you…

From grace2: edwardtulane82 - God will not lead you into a belief that goes contrary to His Word.

To grace2: grace2 - You probably know many of the proof texts that universalists use, just as I’m sure you have a lot of proof texts for your position, but for me, as far as Scripture goes, the best evidence for the salvation of all through Christ is simply
God’s character… here’s an example, one of my favorite passages in the Bible, which I can relate to very much and encourages me even more:

From Lamentations chapter 3 -

19 I remember my affliction and my wandering,
the bitterness and the gall.
20 I well remember them,
and my soul is downcast within me.
21 Yet this I call to mind
and therefore I have hope:

22 Because of the LORD’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, “The LORD is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.”

25 The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26 it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.

28 Let him sit alone in silence,
for the LORD has laid it on him.
29 Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.

31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.

That’s what this all comes down to… God’s character, God’s heart.

Jesus, while on the cross, said ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’

He said this of his enemies, of the people who were in rebellion towards God, the people that didn’t believe in Him, the people that didn’t follow Him, the people who had put Him up on that cross…
I believe that is a glimpse of God’s heart…
Yes, He will judge, but mercy triumphs over judgment, yes there are those who will be thrown into the outer darkness, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth… but weeping remains for a night, and joy comes in the morning… and yes, God will show his wrath over the wickedness of the world… but His anger lasts only for a moment, while His favor lasts for a lifetime…

The Lord will not cast off forever, the Scriptures say… and they say that His love never fails.
They say that He loves His enemies, and that’s why we should too… and if His love never fails, then doesn’t stand to reason that His love for His enemies will never fail either, and that He means to make His enemies His friends?
I know He can do that… my life is evidence of that… evidence that He never gives up on making the ugly beautiful, and the wrong right, and the false true, and the old new…

Wow… well, this has already become longer then I perhaps intended, so perhaps I should bring this to a close…

I will leave you both with this poem that I wrote, called Love Makes Us Real:

At the window I wait
for you; I touch the glass -
the rains fall
do you stand at all
here
in the waters
with me?
I look up,
the clouds veil the moon,
the stars,
the heart wanders, wonders,
can one so far,
be at once so near
to me?
In the dark times,
there is a war inside,
and I seek for your light,
but are blind for the tears,
the questions in my mind…
But there are other nights,
when the skies are clear
when the stars shine like promises,
promises you’ve made,
stirred to longing, moved to weep…
wander here, wonder there;
your music pulls at my heart
as I wrestle in the deep…
for this child
love is a question
only death can answer,
only time can tell,
where new life
springs glory
pure as snow
in times of winter…
but I wait now
stepping to
another drum,
in the mud
I look for the right path,
the one to trust,
your hand to hold,
your steps to follow,
the window through which I climb
into your answer,
your heart, and you:
refuge for the child,
and home for all…

Blessings to you all, and peace


Well, that’s what I posted there tonight. Not sure how they’ll respond.
Would appreciate your prayers that what I had to say will have some kind of positive effect there. :slight_smile:

Thanks for reading, and blessings :slight_smile:

Any thoughts? :slight_smile:

Firstly, most beautiful poem. And the sentiments therein resonate strongly with me.

I admire your patience with your fellow posters. You come over polite, kind, scripturally minded, but most importantly, real. You sound like you’re being you and not trying to impress anyone. I’m still finding the second guy amusing. Does he not realise that with that logic, anyone who disagrees with him is not led by God? I wonder how many other varieties of Christians he would decide are not led by God due to differences with him. So many Christians seem to think all Christians believe the same as they do. But I never can quite understand why universalism is where they draw the line. There is no scripture I am aware of that demands belief in eternal punishment in order to be saved. Sigh!!

I think that part of their problem is that many Universalists are non-trinitarian, non-dispensational, and on occasion modalist (is that the right word?), not believing that Jesus is divine, and sometimes unitarian. They don’t understand that there are many different schools of universalism, and that many universalists are fully evangelical. Now I’m not saying the above-mentioned people aren’t Christ followers at all, but these divergences from orthodoxy are a large part of the problem many evangelical Christians have with what they perceive as universalism.

They think that being a universalist means you don’t believe in hell or in punishment for sins, and they’re so scared silly of the whole “heresy” that they can’t even look at it long enough to find out what it is and why it is. The thing that they believe universalism to be, is completely incompatible with their vision of Christianity (and mine, too, for that matter). Since they “KNOW” it is a heresy, they refuse to even examine it, much as one might refuse to examine a poisonous snake.

For a long time I felt this way about a lot of things. Then I realized I had nothing to fear but the truth, and fearing the truth might be natural, but it was hardly wise. These guys will also get to that point (sometime). There’s probably no need to attempt to persuade them any more than it’s worth while trying to persuade an unwilling atheist to listen to your rendition of the gospel.

The gospel is for those who are ready to hear it, and not for (sorry) swine. Jesus said it, or I wouldn’t dare to say such a thing, and even with that, I cringe at the words. But it’s an apt metaphor. Pigs can’t appreciate pearls. Thankfully, our unsaved brethren will not always be so coarse, and will with maturity, come to see and treasure the Treasure that is our Lord. And of course our misinformed brethren will see also that God is better than they ever dared imagine. :smiley:

That’s not to say that sharing with them is useless. Not only might they actually be open to hearing what they’re at least open to listening to, but there will be others reading as well, who might be closer to the next revelation from God to their hearts than the poster himself is. But if he doesn’t seem to listen, I wouldn’t get disheartened. I believe so many things today that I didn’t believe even five years ago, and have stopped believing so many things I used to KNOW . . . . We’re always growing, and these little nudges help more than we know.

Blessings, Cindy

Thanks as always for sharing your thoughts, Cindy :slight_smile: I love how your brain works. :smiley:

Anyways, I decided to bring my participation there to a close, because I didn’t feel like I was really getting anywhere, and was getting kind of stressed out, but now I’m very encouraged, as you’ll see why, from this exchange:

From edwardtulane82 (that’s me)

“John, thank you for showing me kindness and clarifying your thoughts. Well, I don’t think I have time (or energy, going on four hours of sleep) to address everything you said, but I’ll try to say a couple things… You asked where I get my views from? I would like to think God’s Spirit revealed these things to me, but that’s only for Him to know… this may not be something you or everyone would like to hear, but each of us interprets things differently, interprets Scripture differently, and comes to different conclusions. It is a fact that just can’t be got around. :confused: I try to be humble, and admit whenever pushed to the wall about it that I could be wrong, while still yet being passionate about my convictions… But honestly, I don’t see a lot of attempts at humility here. :confused: It seems like I hear people saying 'there’s no way I could be wrong, there’s no way my way of seeing it could be mistaken. isn’t it clear to you, that i’m right about this and you’re wrong about this, and there’s just no way that you can be right? ever? end of discussion.”
I’m just a guy… I’m a janitor, not a scholar.
I just go with what I know… I’ve read the Bible… I’ve lived my life… I’ve prayed… I’ve struggled…
I’m just a human being, with flaws and weaknesses.
I’m not going to deny that.
But I’ve come to believe these things, just as you’ve come to believe what you believe.
I just wish everyone on here would at least admit to their own humanity, their own potential for fallibility, the possibility that they could be wrong…
Yes, maybe ECT is true… yes, maybe annihilation is true… there are those who say there is absolutely no maybe about it, because they are convinced in their own minds, but for me it is only a maybe, and a big one at that.
From my own reading of Scripture and my own experience, from the different pointers I’ve gotten, I’ve come to conclude that UR is true.
I am passionate about this, but I would like to at least try to respect and care about those who see things differently.
I would only ask that others would do the same for me.
That others would show their humanity and some humility, as I’m trying to do, and when I speak from my heart, that they would listen with some measure of respect and graciousness, and then ask their questions and voice their concerns.
And I am asking that people would be open to finding common ground, and not just focus on the things that could cause strife and name-calling and the like…
John, though we disagree on some things, I’m hoping that we don’t disagree on everything. That we could both agree that at the core of the Christian faith and Christ’s message is the simple call and command to love another.
And I believe that we do. :slight_smile:
Thank you again for your graciousness. :slight_smile:

star2, thank you for trying to show your compassionate side, that compassion plays at some part in your warning me and others. I do appreciate that."

From John:

"edwardtulane82 - Matt, you are not alone, there are others who have come to the same conclusion as you have. And you can be sure that God in Christ will never leave you or forsake you.

…We all have our own shoes to walk in, and most if not all have questions and wonderings. We Christians are all strangers and pilgrims here as we await our homeland. None of us know what that will be like, and we won’t until we get there.

…I can tell you I have made major mistakes along the way, and there has been a lot of learning to do. But these experiences have made me the person I am today. It is why I have strong convictions and the ability to express them, but at the same time can empathize with others.

…Know that I do not think less of you because of your beliefs. I think more of you because of how you have come across. A humble person in search of a better way, in search of peace in the Lord Jesus Christ. I salute you for your honesty and wish you well on your journey. Until we meet again, Jude 20-25."

From edwardtulane82:

"I apologize if I missed any words or grammar or the like in my last post, I’m pretty tired, lol :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, I think it is best I think if I step out of this conversation. Not because I concede defeat, but because I think we’re at an impasse, and that there is little chance of resolution, at least at this time.

I apologize if I’ve said anything that came off as hard-hearted, self-righteous, or unloving. Especially to star2, as I went off on you earlier :confused: Please forgive me if I have been a jerk in any way. I will keep praying that God will make me a better man as time goes on…

As a final thought, I have tried to share from my heart, and I admit it’s difficult when you do that and others don’t seem to appreciate what you are trying to say, it makes you feel a bit more lonely in the world… ah well, at least I know that God understands me even in if no one else does entirely…"

But anyways, here’s the thought… it’s the opening paragraph from the short story The Body, by Stephen King (of all places) which the film Stand By Me was based… to this day, I still think it is one of the most meaningful and true pieces of writing that I’ve read, so I thought I would share it with you all, as I think it give you some idea of how I feel about all of this:

“The most important things are the hardest to say. They are the things you get ashamed of, because words diminish them – words shrink things that seemed limitless when they were in your head to no more than living size when they’re brought out. But it’s more than that, isn’t it? The most important things lie too close to wherever your secret heart is buried, like landmarks to a treasure your enemies would love to steal away. And you may make revelations that cost you dearly only to have people look at you in a funny way, not understanding what you’ve said at all, or why you thought it was so important that you almost cried while you were saying it. That’s the worst, I think. When the secret stays locked within not for want of a teller, but for want of an understanding ear.”

Blessings to you all, and peace

Matt"

From star2 -

"edwardtulane82 - Matt, you don’t have to be perfect. We can figure out what you are trying to say even if the grammer is not quite right or you left out some word(s). Don’t beat up on yourself.

“Please forgive me if I have been a jerk in any way.”

I forgive you.

“I will keep praying that God will make me a better man as time goes on…”

God will answer.

“ah well, at least I know that God understands me even in if no one else does entirely”

Keep your eyes on Jesus. I have had to do that many times. Man will let you down, will not understand you, and will misjudge you. Look to God to meet your needs, not man. Jesus will see you through. I know because He has me."

To John and star2 -

"John and star2 - Thank you both for your kind words and encouragement, and for showing me your humanity and for being humble and gentle. :slight_smile:
I still think it is best that I step out, but I am very encouraged and thankful that we have found some common ground, and that we can part in peace :slight_smile:
It is an answer to prayer for me. :slight_smile:
Grace and peace to you both, and may you be richly blessed :slight_smile:
Till we meet again :slight_smile:

Matt"

Pretty cool huh? :smiley:

Praise God for helping us to make peace :slight_smile:

To: edwardtulane82

Thank you for your humble and awesome words on humility in discussion. I appreciate it very much.
I would appreciate chatting with you some time if you have a moment.
Gerry Beauchemin 956 831 9011 Blessings to you

Thanks :slight_smile: Will do, Gerry, I’ll be sure to give you a call sometime. :slight_smile:

That IS very encouraging, Matthew! A gracious exchange, even in parting, is certainly no small thing. :smiley:

Yes…that was wonderful Matt, a great example for us all. To observe humility and grace working to bring opposing hearts together at the foundational level: LOVE for one another, is as Cindy said ‘no small thing’!! So encouraging to see love winning!

l

Amen amen …truly wonderful Matt, and God-driven, Spirit-driven.

You “prayed for God to enter your heart”. Well, WOW, you sure opened your heart to Him, and WOW, how clearly He enters yours and resonates through your words.

Thank you!

Michael in Barcelona

Your poem reminds me of one written by a friend of mine, Anne Kellas.

Yet “Home!” they cry, take me home
to that far shore I never saw when I left
when my foot stepped from the foreshore to the ferry
the land I trod as a child so surely mine
now not.
Not so.
Not home.

We chill, here, in the new land, we slowly grow more still.
And all because our home outcast us, cast us
out onto the sea, onto the shore.
Like so much seaweed. Wet on rock we’re stuck here.
I could walk around this knot of rocks
but find another bay is rimmed with more
and I have to stay, on the rim of sand and sea and shore
because here the sky talks at night
of stars and far far kingdoms lost
and palaces in dreams
where people dance and dance
and spinners spin and spin
and music plays all down the scales of notes to fill the chords of time.
– heavenly sounds of ice and bells of piano
harp and birdsong.
Hoopoe. Wren. Dove.
Bird. Generic flight. Wings. Freedom.
Sky. Dawn. Light.
Art. Seven colors woven into sun.
Movement: slow.
And still the dance goes on.

All things aspire to the condition of music.
A million scattered violin notes compressed in heated sand,
the components of glass lie ready to be made fire.

That’s a great poem, Allan, thanks for sharing :slight_smile: