I just received a message on the Kevin DeYoung website. I posted several classic UR scriptures to a guy who posted a bunch of hell texts and this is what he said:
"Chris,
We are all born “IN” Adam, but not all are born “IN” Christ as the verses you quote state. The only way one can be “IN” Christ is through repentance and faith, this is why Jesus said you must be born again, to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who have put their faith and trust IN Jesus, are IN Him, those who do not, are outside of Christ.
The Key word is “IN”- Christ, If a person is not “IN” Christ, they don’t possess all the riches those verses promise. Humanity is spiritually dead, and outside of Christ. Salvation, however, is available to all men, by faith IN Jesus Christ, alone.
Colossians 1;20.19 “For IN Him [Christ]… You said, ” when Paul is talking about “all things” what is he talking about?” The verse in context basically says, that anyone and anything that is IN Christ (the cross) is reconciled to Him, anyone and anything that is outside the realm of Christ, is dead.
Romans 5:18 Again-”one man (Adam) led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” The key word is here is “LEADS” not, “will.”- “LEADS,” is not a definite word. The cross leads to life, but you don’t have to follow, you can go down the wide path that leads to destruction, if you choose.
John 12:32 “will draw all men to Myself.” This verse needs to rest in the context of the next verse, which says, “He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.” Jesus here was emphasizing the physical, not the spiritual ramification of his death.
2 Peter 3:9 God is saying he is patient, not WANTING anyone to perish. This does not mean he will not let anyone perish. The Bible is clear that men will perish.
1 Corinthians 15:22 Again, this verse is explicate by saying that a person must be “IN” Christ-Not all people are in Christ.
Romans 11:32 The key word is here is “MAY,” not “will”
Chris, do you think God is going to force and make people accept him, or love Him, against their will? Wouldn’t that be divine rape?"
There you have it. God’s irresistible will is “divine rape”. You heard it first here
I used this argument before when I defended Eternal-Hell doctrine.
It quickly falls apart when one realises that true-love is patient, and persists until the one beloved finally accepts that love.
God doesn’t have to force himself on anyone (yet any Calvinist shouldn’t use this argument for the obvious reasons, this idea is strictly Arminianist). He has all the time in eternity to draw the person he loves, to love him back. And what is Hell but letting the man realise that without God, there is nothing worth living for? Hell, even according to today’s orthodox idea, in the mainline protestant sense; is nothing more than God giving Man what he wants, existence without Him.
But of course, that only makes the man’s need which only God can provide more poignant, and clear. And so he is driven up the mountain to seek the presence of God by that need.
Was it divine rape on the Damascus road? Was it divine rape, when God used circumstances to drive a man from Atheism to Christ? There are many stories where a person, for horrid things in this life, gave their life to Christ. Why should a horrid “afterlife” bring anything different?
I would also ask; if it is divine rape for God to “force” his love on someone he had purposefully built to love him? Is it divine necromancy to resurrect the dead both the just and the unjust to life on the last day to be judged? Is it divine force-feeding for God to give the grace required for the unjust and the just to live? Is it some other form of divine injustice that he should give sunlight and rain for the just and the unjust alike?
Why can God give blessings, and even salvation to the just and unjust alike - but it is divine rape if he gives them his love unconditionally, and assures that his children are properly disciplined and become the best they can be?
God created all of humanity, essentially - birthed them into existence with no influence or decision making of their own. Is it evil for a human parent to raise up their child in the admonition of the Lord? Why does it suddenly become evil for The Divine Parent to raise up His human child-creation in the admonition of himself?
Why should God be feeble, where we exhort human parents to be strong?
I think he is a sick individual if he imagines that rape has even the slightest connection with love.
Of course, he couldn’t find an example of ‘forced love’ because it is an oxymoron just as ‘forced worship’ is ( re ‘every knee shall bow’ etc).
Love, by definition is ‘desiring and acting towards the highest welfare and wellbeing of the beloved’. Anything less is not love. That is also where the Calvinist also goes wrong in imagining God can love the damned but just not with ‘elective love’. Absolute tosh!
When discussing Universalism with a Christian I always ask it they are a Calvinist.
Because so many arguments against universalism can be used equally against
Calvinism.
To your accuser of Divine Rape. We know Love never ends and never gives up from 1 Cor 13.
So with God’s infinite love operating on a person who is not infinite, Love will always win in the end.
God’s love is definite, I hope! And/or his sovereignty, if that’s what you go with. I sure hope God can do equally as good as Adam.
One version of this same verse reads:
This does not read resulted in the possibility of justification and life for all people.
Sonia said…
Opps, need to log out as Gene. This is Amy, btw!
The condemnation that came through Adam seems more like rape to me! God is promising to undue this with love.
AHHHHH it bugs me when Calvinists become Arminians to argue against UR! Incoherence!
Interesting how most Calvinists talk so much about being logical and rational, but then resort to Arminian arguments when faced with UR. To me they just end up sounding arrogant, like they forget that their own salvation was solely by God’s election, but all of a sudden the non-elect are just too tough for God to save, or something? Really? And you were any different when you were dead in your sins? Hello, ALL OF US ARE BORN SHUT UP IN SIN!!!
The main reason that UR started to make sense to my Calvinist thoughts was that I couldn’t fathom God wanting to do anything different to/for anyone else than what he had done to/for me (graciously elect, save, regenerate, sanctify, and glorify me). I can’t believe I’m a special case, and I can’t believe my destiny is different from any other human’s. I KNOW there’s nothing special about me!
It’s my opinion that there is not a single person in existence who wouldn’t voluntarily worship God if He revealed Himself and his Plan of The Ages to them with all of His glory.
Well this is the sort of thing I’m trying to address in my essay draft titled:
over here…
Pretty spooky to call it “rape” though: that badly distorts the actual nature of free will and what’s in our best interest.
Hard to see rape as in my best interest; also hard to see letting me “freely chose” my own demise as actually free in any sense of the word…
This is my full reply to the person with my comments in {parenthesis preceded by my name} note: he addresses me “chris” a few times, but that is him speaking if it is not in parenthesis:
Chris, We are all born “IN” Adam, but not all are born “IN” Christ as the verses you quote state. The only way one can be “IN” Christ is through repentance and faith, this is why Jesus said you must be born again, to enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who have put their faith and trust IN Jesus, are IN Him, those who do not, are outside of Christ. The Key word is “IN”- Christ, If a person is not “IN” Christ, they don’t possess all the riches those verses promise. Humanity is spiritually dead, and outside of Christ. Salvation, however, is available to all men, by faith IN Jesus Christ, alone.
{Chris: I couldn’t agree with you more.}
Colossians 1;20.19 “For IN Him [Christ]… You said, ” when Paul is talking about “all things” what is he talking about?” The verse in context basically says, that anyone and anything that is IN Christ (the cross) is reconciled to Him, anyone and anything that is outside the realm of Christ, is dead.
{Chris: You are reading into the verse. It is crystal clear, without equivocation. Paul defines “all things” in vs. 16 & 17. Any exception you find there is one that you read into the passage because it says that he will reconcile “all things to himself” — The same “all things” that he’s discussed four other times in the previous few verses. And to give you the context of what kind of reconciliation he’s talking about, he makes it clear, “having made peace through the blood of His cross” – He’s talking about reconciliation through the cross – the kind that makes “peace”. From what I know of the gospel, peace that is made through the blood of the cross of Christ that makes reconciliation is the kind where God is making peace with man through Christ. You can dance all you want around the verse. It says “all things” without exception. In other words, it teaches that eventually we all will be reconciled to Christ. Has that happened yet? No. Will it happen? Paul says so. Not me – Paul; and he says it several different ways in different verses.}
Romans 5:18 Again-”one man (Adam) led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” The key word is here is “LEADS” not, “will.”- “LEADS,” is not a definite word. The cross leads to life, but you don’t have to follow, you can go down the wide path that leads to destruction, if you choose.
{Chris: You are dancing around the verse again. The construction is exactly the same for Adam as it is for Christ. There is a single act by Adam that eventually led to the death of all men with no exception. In the same way, Paul says that there is a single act by Christ that will eventually lead to life for all men. That’s what it says. I’m not reading into it, I’m quoting it. Does one need to be “in Christ” for this to happen? Absolutely! Do the scriptures teach that eventually all will be reconciled in Christ? That’s what they say!}
John 12:32 “will draw all men to Myself.” This verse needs to rest in the context of the next verse, which says, “He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.” Jesus here was emphasizing the physical, not the spiritual ramification of his death.
{Chris: No, he was speaking about BOTH! Read the verse. The first part “when I am lifted up” tells us what kind of death He will die. The second part “I will draw all men to Myself” tells us what will be the consequences of that act of grace.}
2 Peter 3:9 God is saying he is patient, not WANTING anyone to perish. This does not mean he will not let anyone perish. The Bible is clear that men will perish.
{Chris: Yes, but is that “perishing” permanent? There is no doubt that men will go to hell. The scriptures say so. But the scriptures also say just as clearly that Christ will reconcile all men to himself. You give greater weight to your interpretation of just what this “perishing” means, and explain away Jesus’ clear words about universal reconciliation. I say we need to let scripture interpret scripture. Do some men reject Christ? Yes, initially. But the scriptures clearly teach that EVENTUALLY, when it is all said and done, that all men will be reconciled. So how am I to understand the perishing? Since I know all will be reconciled, how will God use the second death to draw men to him? Since we know that scriptures teach that Jesus will reconcile then we must understand the wrath in hell as being for the purposes of reconciliation. He did that repeatedly with Israel in the O.T. in the exile and other punishments. If you do a personal study on wrath in the scriptures you will find that God’s wrath was corrective as well as punitive. Israel’s exile is a good example. The scriptures say that God doesn’t want any to perish and it says in 1 Tim 2:3,4 “For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”; and Ephesians 1:11 “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,” Job 42: 2 “1Then Job answered the LORD and said, “I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.”; and Isaiah 46:9-10 “9″Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’”
So Truth, since it is His will that none should perish and He works ALL things after the counsel of His will. His purposes can’t be thwarted and he will accomplish His good pleasure, do you think that God will get his wishes?}
1 Corinthians 15:22 Again, this verse is explicate by saying that a person must be “IN” Christ-Not all people are in Christ.
{Chris: I agree. Not yet…}
Romans 11:32 The key word is here is “MAY,” not “will”
Truth: Chris, do you think God is going to force and make people accept him, or love Him, against their will? Wouldn’t that be divine rape?
{Chris: Are you serious? I really don’t think (we are now only speaking hypothetically because I don’t think anyone in heaven will be their against their will) anyone would be mad at God if he, for someone’s own good, over-road their sinful nature, changed them, glorified them, and placed them in heaven? I can think of times that I over-road the will of my kids in certain scenarios where the consequences were simply too steep and they were too young to appreciate or handle the consequences of their actions (i.e. when they wanted to stick their hand in the fire). But more importantly, do you really think we have that much free will? Do you think that you will be in heaven because of what you did? Will you say, “I am here because I chose God”, or will you be there because He chose you? Paul said he was set apart from his mother’s womb. John the Baptist was filled with the spirit in his mother’s womb. Were these 2 men “divinely raped”? Paul speaks of “those whom God foreknew, He also predestined” – did they have 100% free will or was God guilty of some misconduct there? Or have you forgotten, Rom 9:15-16 ” For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” I think you are overestimating your free will, and would bet that you believe that God intervenes on our behalf and even against our will sometimes because he LOVES us! THANK GOD! No one gets to heaven without God’s intervention, and I don’t think any of us will think we were taken advantage of if God nudges things a little bit along the way to help us follow Him, and anyone who thinks that it is their “free will” choice that got them there still has a lot of humility to learn. Eventually all will be drawn by the power of the cross, though some will go through severe wrath – a severe mercy.
OK, folks, here is his next reply to my post. Notice he doesn’t respond to the scriptures/argument:
**Chris,
The Bible teaches that men will be lost as well as saved. The apostle Paul warned us to teach the whole counsel of God, why? So that we don’t blow things out of proportion, teaching God’s love, without His justice. The two are entwined.
Apparently, you have never stood at the gates of hell, like I, fearful, trembling, staring into the eternal abyss, as one who has broken the law of God, and stands guilty with my lies, lust, thievery, idolatry, hatred, disobedience toward my parents, misusing God’s holy name, and my wicked coveting. Perhaps there is no need for you do a 180 and turn from your sins in repentance. Maybe you think of yourself as a good person, who only needs God to help them get through life’s problems. However, when I finally saw myself in truth; a sinner, who needed a Savior, and came to understand I broke God’s law, and that Jesus paid my fine, I finally by faith, surrendered my life to Christ, to save me through His grace and mercy.
Had someone taught me the lie, that hell was temporary, or was a myth, when the Bible declares it is eternal, I might not have trembled in fear. I may very well have concluded that I could possibly endure a little heat, and stay in the pleasure of sin for a season. If hell is not eternal, than who needs a Savior? If hell is temporary, or a myth, then the churches message is no longer relevant.
Chris, I am concerned for you. My prayer is that you will cast aside this idolatrous theory, and understanding of God, and that you will see God’s moral attributes, His holiness, and His purity. I hope you will come to the place where you can see yourself in truth, as a sinner, needing a Savior. The Bible tells us that, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear his deeds will be exposed. Bur whoever lives by the truth comes into the light… Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” John 3:17-21,36**
God’s grace and mercy are also his justice, just as his justice is also his love, just as his love is his grace and mercy. Justice without mercy and grace is also blowing things out of proportion. By default, “ceaseless conscious torture without mercy” is “justice” devoid of the grace and mercy that are integrally a part of it.
Justice in any form of an Eternal Hell, if it is without Eternal Mercy, and Eternal Grace applied along side it - ceases to be Justice.
I have. I took in the full scope of that abyss and what it meant, as far as my finite mind could hold it without destruction. Behold I now believe in the salvation of all mankind through our Victorious Christ.
If Christ could save me, he can save the whole world. I in myself am a sinner whose sins outweight the mass of the whole world’s wickedness collected together. Surely this is true, if a sin against the infinite God is an infinite sin. He saved me, he can save the rest. It was not by my merits I was saved, not by my choice or will or design; but God’s alone. If I could be saved despite no merit, choice, will, or design in of my own - then the whole world can be saved under the very same principle of non-participation via merit or verbage (also known as works).
On the contrary, the whole world needs God. And God provides the needs of both the just, and the unjust alike.
Jesus has paid everyone’s fine. The dept is paid, therefore there is no foreclosure to come.
Your salvation was not because you finally did anything. It was strictly by Christ’s single handed work that salvation was even granted to you.
Aionion*
Perfect love casts out fear. Is it only by fear that you serve or by love? If it is by love, wherefore do you fear? Did you only receive salvation that was already granted to you, simply because of self-survival and terror?
Is your faith so weak that its foundations are built only on escaping Hell, rather than journeying to Heaven, and not to be in Heaven but to commune with your Father who loves you and loved you enough to bring you forth into existence, and planned your being from the before very foundation of the world?
If it were not for the threat of being tortured forever, you would not have thrown yourself before the very Infinite Love himself?
Alas!
Catch thyself on fire, and see if you would endure that even for five minutes. The Refiner’s Fire is no mere “little heat”, you grossly underestimate the God who loves you too much to leave you in your sin, and who will use even severe Hell-fire to burn it out of you if necessary. But you will be clean, you are God’s property, and everyone is God’s property for he created them. By rights he owns every human soul. Christ has authority over all flesh. He will have his property clean.
Everyone, including you. If not for Christ, you would lay forever in the Grave, bound forever to The Law, and there would be no Life in you, no Comforter, no intimate relationship with God. Christ’s mission as Saviour was far more than dowsing the flames of an Eternal Hell, it was to defeat Death itself, Sin itself, and bring Life and Life in abundance.
Perhaps, but Christ’s message will remain thoroughly intact. It will forever be relavant.
“Come to me, all ye who are heavy laden, and I shall give you rest.”
Hell fire, or no Hell fire - this message is forever relevant.
Love thy God with all your heart, perfect love casts out fear. God uses the ignorant to counfound the wise.
Unless you mean “The Reverence” of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. This is perfectly Biblical. But to fear the Lord as one would fear a tyrant? The fearful (the cowardly) also have their place in the Lake of Fire.
Will you go to your Eternal Hell for being a coward at his throne? A coward is a coward, before God or not. And the coward will have their place, even with the idolator.
Idolatrous theory…nonsense. To believe that God is 100% victorious over 100% of his Creation and will save 100% of his beloved work, and destroy 100% of the Devil’s work and rescue 100% of the world his Son died for because he loved it so much; if this is idolatry, then the theory of Eternal Damnation is nothing short of Atheism.
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6 KJV
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isaiah 52:10 KJV
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11:9 KJV
Isaiah 46:10 telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: (The Septuagint; Brenton’s Translation)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV
Before EU, the Bible on the wider scope of the whole made very little sense. After accepting EU, it does.
Before EU, I had no peace, I had little joy, and I had little hope. My life was an exhausting uphill battle with no reinforcements in sight, fraught with depression, fret, anxiety, desperation, dread, and loathing; the yoke of Christ was like a millstone made of iron and lead. After EU, I knew love, peace, joy, hope, and faith. My adoration for the Christian God, my exaltation of His only begotten Son, my faith in Him grew like a fertile Eden.
Hi Chris, Great work you are doing over at KDY’s blog. Even if you don’t convince “truthmatters”, others will read it and it will get them thinking. I’ve been too busy to get involved over there for a while, but praying for you!
