The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Divine Rape?!?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#21

Here is Truthmatter’s latest response at the Kevin DeYoung website thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kev … s#comments . It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so maddening. He simply keeps assuming that we aren’t saved:

**Chris and AaronK

We are all a heart-beat away from eternity. The Bible tells us why we must die. It says, “sin is transgression of the law”, and, “the soul that sins must die!” I would like to review a little quiz, using the 10 Commandments to see how you do.

Would you consider yourself to be a good person? YES/NO

  1. Is God first in your life? Y/N
  2. Have you made a god to suit yourself? Y/N
  3. Have you ever used God’s holy name in vain? Y/N, The Bible says, God will not hold him guiltless who takes HIs name in vain.
  4. Have you kept the Sabbath holy? Y/N
  5. Have you always honored your parents? Y/N
  6. Have you hated anyone? Y/N, If Y, then the Bible says, you are a murderer. Jesus equated hatred to murder.
  7. Have you ever looked at a women with lust? Y/N, Jesus said, ” Whoever looks at a women to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
  8. Have you ever stolen something ? (irrespective of its value) Y/N, If Y, then you are a thief.
  9. Have you ever told a lie? Y/N, then you are a liar and the Bible says you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
  10. Have you ever coveted what belonged to others? Y/N

If God were to Judge you by standard of the 10 Commandments do you think you would be innocent or guilty? Heaven or Hell? Does this concern you?

The Bible says whoever has sinned in the law, will be judged by the law. The Law leaves us all sinners in God’s sight, right? There is none good, but God. The Bible says that all of our righteousness is like a filthy rag. On Judgment Day we will be found guilty. The Bible says, ‘ It is appointed unto man once to die, then the Judgement.’

In the court of law, justice demands that you pay for your crimes. God is a holy, righteous judge. He hates sin! Jesus warned in Matthew 13;42 that God in his wrath, will cast all who sin against him into eternal fire ‘where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The Bible says there is only one way anyone can get to heaven. If a sinless person offered to take our punishment, then justice would be served and we could go free! God sent his Son Jesus to suffer and die for our sins.

The Bible tells us salvation is a free gift that can’t be earned. It also says that God resist the proud, but gives grace to the humble. We need to humble ourselves and come to Jesus.”turn to God in repentance and have faith in the Lord Jesus. (Acts 20:20) The Bible says, ‘If anyone is IN Christ, he is a new creation!’ ( 2 Corinthians 5:17) Ephesians 2:9 tells us if we do not have faith, then we do not have grace.

We have this life, this moment to humble ourselves in repentance and faith, and be saved. When we draw our last breath, then our eternal destination will be fixed. The Bible says, “Choose you this day whom you will serve.”

John 3: 19 tells us the verdict is in. “Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the Lord and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does prospers.

Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgement, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish**

#22

Guys,
I don’t think he’s been really reading your posts. He’s totally missing the point, and he’s not engaging with what you say.

Sonia

#23

I agree. Only once did he reply and the funny thing is that in that post I just put up several scriptures with no commentary except for one comment. In that one he replied to the scriptures giving a very poor response. When I responded to that and asked him to do a better job of dealing with the texts, he ignored it. I’m going to see if I can somehow get him into the argument. If anyone else wants to jump in it would be great. We’ll inundate him with UR arguments and see what happens. :smiley:

#24

Alright, I chimed in twice more… can’t stay away (it’s a problem :unamused: ).

AaronK
April 26, 2011 at 9:16 am
Truth,

You say:
“If God were to Judge you by standard of the 10 Commandments do you think you would be innocent or guilty? Heaven or Hell? Does this concern you?”

I’m guilty as charged! It absolutely concerns me!

“As for (me), (I was) dead in (my) transgressions and sins, in which (I) used to live when (I) followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.”

I sing Amazing Grace to my two year old every night at bed time. I can truly sing all the words, including the “wretch like me” part.

I am amazed that instead of engaging in what I do believe, you assume you already know that I don’t understand the gravity of sin. I do. I’ve lived it. “Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come, ’tis grace that brought me safe thus far and grace will lead me home.”

I am resisting my urge to assume you don’t know the power of Christ and the cross for all mankind – I don’t want to be guilty of the very thing you are in your responses to Chris and myself.

Perhaps I will ask one simple question, if salvation is a free gift from God (which I also believe), who are you to say that this gift is only effectual for some, and not all. I too believe that the gift must be “received”; but I also believe that God will never cease His persistence in offering it.

I believe God’s sovereign love will outlast man’s obstinacy in sin.

In Christ,
-AaronK

AaronK
April 26, 2011 at 1:53 pm

Truth,

I would like to add a few more thoughts (sorry, I’m really trying not to go on all day about this).

You say:
“God is a holy, righteous judge. He hates sin!”

I absolutely agree, He hates sin! But does that mean He hates the sinner? I believe He hates sin because it separates Him from, and utterly destroys, the objects of His holy love.

Jesus says to take up our crosses and follow Him. Paul says that we must consider ourselves dead in Christ so that we may have life in Him.

Yes, many places Jesus talks about the destruction of those who do not believe, who do not find the narrow path. The greek word in most of these “destruction passages” is “apollymi” (or a greek variant). I ask, who did Jesus come to save?

“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollymi)”

He came to seek and save those who have been destroyed!

In my most recent comment, I asked “who are you to say that this gift is only effectual for some, and not all?”

I think this is an unfair question. You believe that’s what the scriptures teach. This is why you stand behind this belief and I can appreciate that.

I once believed as you do. I came to find through much studying that I had taken the destruction passages in scripture as the final word on those who deny Christ and “re-interpreted” all the passages that speak plainly of the salvation of all men. I used the “hell” passages as a basis for interpreting the “universalist” passages.

Through my studies and quiet meditation, I believe I have come to fuller understanding the character of God as revealed in the Word, Jesus. On that journey, the passages that speak of the ultimate reconciliation of all men, in Christ, are now the passages that I use for the basis for interpreting the “hell” passages.

We are both using the same methodology in our study of scripture, we just have differing presuppositions.

You may believe I have created a god that is “more comfortable” for me. This is actually less true – it is not easy to shift from the popular theology concerning “hell” to what I now believe. My brothers in Christ see fit to rain down plenty of judgment on me for what I now believe (And BTW, I still do believe in “hell”, so we are still brothers :wink: .

If God sees fit to show me how He is more loving, more just, more holy, more merciful to have many tormented forever, or annihilated, then I am clay in the Potters hands. He is my loving Father and a consuming Fire – I’m sure I won’t escape His correction. :wink:

Still in Christ,
-Aaronk

#25

Aaronk, that was an excellent post! But he is simply not responding to what we are writing. Look at his latest response. I was hoping he would engage the conversation.

Chris

#26

Thanks Dirtboy… none of this is mine… yet He has given it to me to say… :slight_smile:

I’m less interested in “convincing” DeYoung, or even truly engaging in a full on debate with him. I’m more interested in anyone else reading these posts who is teetering on the edge - unable to reconcile God’s “love” and “wrath” - those who cannot believe in the god that has been presented to them by popular Christianity.

As George MacDonald said, “Let the dead bury the dead, but I will do what I can to keep them from burying the living!”

-AaronK

#27

Listen, gentlemen…
Your success is not measured by your ability to change minds.
Speak the truth, in love, and expect to be marginalized and ignored and even mocked sometimes.
It is Jesus’ smile and approval we covet; not that of this sort.

Just be faithful…
You’re doing that!

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#28

Hey TV, I understand what you are saying, it’s just that you don’t see too many people actually engage the subject and it would be nice to actually see someone do it. It’s amazing how immune people are to their own scriptures - even when they are pointed out. I understand that we all wear theological glasses, but understanding it doesn’t take away the frustration.

Chris

#29

You’re probably not going to affect the dogmatic arguers; it’s the more open-minded people quietly listening in who are going to hear the reason in your words. I try to think of those folks when I’m participating in a debate.

Sonia

#30

Sonia, this is my feeling as well. I am much more interested in everyone else who is watching the conversation unfold… not for their approval, but so that they may understand and come to know the depth of the love of our sovereign God.

It is important to strive for civility and graciousness in these conversations - something I often struggle with. To the bystanders, sly jabs will be detestable and do not bring Christ the glory. Ultimately though, God will work, either through us, or in spite of us. I just hope it’s the former and not the latter.

#31

I agree with you all. I used to debate on the Matt Slick website several years ago with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It was always the “lurkers” that you thought of when you debated because no one really every admitted defeat. I guess it would just be cool to see a guy at least try to address the scriptures so people could see how weak the arguments are. Instead, they just dismiss the argument outright as heretical without addressing it. Most people will agree with them because the “can of worms” doesn’t get opened up. But you guys are right though because there will always be people who are interested and they end up looking up a few questions and start to do their own investigation. I’m still doing the investigating myself.

Chris

#32

I believe Sonia’s discerning heart does her credit - this man does not seem to have an open heart, that only God can grant him, and all the logic and Scripture in the world will not convince him or “win” him to UR.

2 ti 2.16 “and the profane vain talkings stand aloof from, for to more impiety they will advance”. Another version warns against “striving about words, to no profit”.

Not to say we shouldn’t hash these things out, obviously, but there is a point to concede. My good husband often balances me by suggesting that other anonymous readers who are following the thread will not benefit if it “appears” that selective salvation “wins”, i.e. that the brother NOT believing in UR will seem right if he has the last word. Not so.

We don’t always need to have the last word to make a point, or to always have the answer with logic and reason and greek references; for God is with the anonymous reader also - we are not responsible for them.

Continue always in prayer especially when conversing with others who seem to “delight in injustice” and have a heart of stone.

#33

Not sure what you’re getting at here - does your “good husband” suggest that we should or should not worry about who gets the last word?

-AaronK

#34

My knee-jerk reaction is to say, don’t argue with folks who just seem to like to flap their jaws about their own beliefs and tear down everyone else’s. This Truthmatters guy isn’t connecting with what we’re saying. There’s a point to end the discussion and bow out gracefully instead of continuing the debate and allowing it to get heated and destructive.

But, I need balance to remember that, as Sonia said so succinctly,

“You’re probably not going to affect the dogmatic arguers; it’s the more open-minded people quietly listening in who are going to hear the reason in your words. I try to think of those folks when I’m participating in a debate.”

You often seem to be concerned that the other people “quietly listening in” can benefit from the discussion - whether or not the Truthmatters guy is swayed.

I say, Know when to stop, and test your heart for pride that wants to answer every comeback from the opposition. You say, Continue the discussion, for the good of the other readers.

Balance!

#35

(Matthew 23:37)

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The answer to this paradox lies between you two but to go further would be entering God’s territory and going beyond the reach of scriptural understanding because we are finite.

#36

What verse is that?

#37

I like your balance - your husband is a lucky guy!

#38

Thank you! and only one presupposition can be correct although I believe universalism is more of a stretch in scriptural interpretation. AaronK from your post I have no doubt that you strongly believe in what you say but you must admit that to be a universalist, it is not a matter of just believing in hell or not. If the other side is right and there is an eternal hell then the universalists who say, “hell is unfair and unjust” or “I could never worship a God of an eternal hell” are in trouble. Would you agree?

#39

Every verse in the Bible that ever implied God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent (omniessential basically, all the omnis), sovereign, and has always existed, and always will exist.

Basically every verse in the whole Bible where God ever said; “I AM GOD”

This is God, he literally has all the time in the world to do anything he pleases, whether it be bringing forth Isaac or bring Israel out of Egypt, or taking them through the wilderness, or bringing forth Jesus Christ - The Word - into the arena of Creation.

#40

I cannot refute abstract philosophy only scriptural interpretation. I am a firm believer in sola scriptura so what verse was that statement interpreted from?