Divine Rape?!?

[Lefein]

Christ’s entry, above all else should be enough to show God’s sovereignty in dealing with any issue of time, especially issues dealing with Love which Christ is most emphatically representative of in his ministry. In which case, there is that verse; “I shall draw (drag) all mankind to myself”. And Jesus is just as eternal as the Father; “The Father and I are one…before Abraham was, I am.”

---

I firmly believe in sola scriptura. So what verse was that statement taken from?

Isa 46:10 telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: -Brenton’s Septuagint

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: -KJV

Gen 18:14 Shall anything be impossible with the Lord? At this time I will return to thee seasonably, and Sarrha shall have a son. -Brenton’s Septuagint

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. -KJV

Exo 9:5 And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land. -KJV

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. -KJV

Really, you’re asking me to quote every verse that even points to God’s sovereignty, and there are far too many to post.

But this shall stand especially;

Isa 46:10 telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: -Brenton’s Septuagint

As it not only points directly to God’s knowing of Time, and sovereignty hence over it, but also that he shall fulfill every plan he has made. Plans such as the salvation of the world, drawing all men to himself, for God loved the whole world he gave his only begotten son, not to condemn it but to save it.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 20:25-29 The other disciples therefore said unto him [Thomas], We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

From all of these verses, and more, I surmise that God having sovereignty and aboveness over Time, has therefore all the time he needs to fulfill his plans which he has promised to fulfill - namely, that the world shall be saved, see the salvation of God, bow, worship, confess, swear allegiance, come to the full knowledge of the truth, be saved, and believe.

---

God will do everything he has planned, declaring the end from the beginning. Nothing is impossible for him. He wants everyone to love him, or else he would not have commanded it; “Love thy God” he is everyone’s God, being everyone’s Maker, being the only One God;

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Also from Isaiah 46:9-10 for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

“God does what ever God wants”

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God will do everything he planned, everything after his pleasure, everything he desires, every thing he wants to do he will do. He wants all mankind to be saved, he wants them to believe, he wants them to love him; nothing is impossible for God, he has all the time and power in all of Himself and existence by which to do His will, and he will do all he has planned to do.

He Is God. And these verses shall do for your list.

[Lefein]

I can only quote so much of the Bible before I end up writing it online.

[_oxymoron]

Christ’s entry, above all else should be enough to show God’s sovereignty in dealing with any issue of time, especially issues dealing with Love which Christ is most emphatically representative of in his ministry. In which case, there is that verse; “I shall draw (drag) all mankind to myself”. And Jesus is just as eternal as the Father; “The Father and I are one…before Abraham was, I am…”

…Also from Isaiah 46:9-10 for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Despite the fact that “all” doesn’t always mean “all” Those verses say absolutely nothing that God will draw people even into eternity. You are taking different passages of God’s sovereign will, His love, His system of salvation etc… which is all well and good but then you are connecting these verses with your presupposition. That is bad hermeneutics. Why not let scripture speak for itself?

[_oxymoron]

God will do everything he planned, everything after his pleasure, everything he desires, every thing he wants to do he will do. He wants all mankind to be saved, he wants them to believe, he wants them to love him; nothing is impossible for God, he has all the time and power in all of Himself and existence by which to do His will, and he will do all he has planned to do.

He Is God. And these verses shall do for your list.

(Matthew 23:37)

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Explain this verse to me. God is unable to draw these people to Him even though He wants to but then during a long period of time He is then able? What is stopping God? Please show scripture.

[NealF]

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Explain this verse to me. God is unable to draw these people to Him even though He wants to but then during a long period of time He is then able? What is stopping God? Please show scripture.

Oxy, please explain how your one verse (perhaps taken out of context? I hope not) overrules all the verses Lefein mentioned about God’s sovereignty and patience. Please explain additionally how this verse proves that God will never ever ever be able to draw Jerusalem to him (especially when in multiple other places he says he will do just that–draw all men to himself). Or, relatedly, please explain how Jesus’ exclamation about one situation 2000 years ago shows us that the eternal, unchanging state of those inhabitants of Jerusalem is eternal torment. And please use Scripture alone, with a minimum of philosophical presupposition-wrangling.

Thanks in advance!

[_oxymoron]

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Explain this verse to me. God is unable to draw these people to Him even though He wants to but then during a long period of time He is then able? What is stopping God? Please show scripture.

Oxy, please explain how your one verse (perhaps taken out of context? I hope not) overrules all the verses Lefein mentioned about God’s sovereignty and patience. Please explain additionally how this verse proves that God will never ever ever be able to draw Jerusalem to him (especially when in multiple other places he says he will do just that–draw all men to himself). Or, relatedly, please explain how Jesus’ exclamation about one situation 2000 years ago shows us that the eternal, unchanging state of those inhabitants of Jerusalem is eternal torment. And please use Scripture alone, with a minimum of philosophical presupposition-wrangling.

Thanks in advance!

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said, one verse overruled the others and that was never my intention nor do I have any hidden agenda other than asking you to explain this verse to me in light of your statement.

[Lefein]

I have a long reply, and I’ll save it for later (as I do have it, and will indeed show it when I see fit). Yet NealF makes a better, and much less lengthy point.

I agree with NealF’s post…Show me what NealF has requested.

[_oxymoron]

I have a long reply, and I’ll save it for later (as I do have it, and will indeed show it when I see fit). Yet NealF makes a better, and much less lengthy point.

I agree with NealF’s post…Show me what NealF has requested.

I will be waiting. I am not questioning universalism but the statement you made (which is NealF problem since everything must come back to UR vs ET). Explain to me that verse and how it ties in with your statement.

[NealF]

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Explain this verse to me. God is unable to draw these people to Him even though He wants to but then during a long period of time He is then able? What is stopping God? Please show scripture.

Oxy, please explain how your one verse (perhaps taken out of context? I hope not) overrules all the verses Lefein mentioned about God’s sovereignty and patience. Please explain additionally how this verse proves that God will never ever ever be able to draw Jerusalem to him (especially when in multiple other places he says he will do just that–draw all men to himself). Or, relatedly, please explain how Jesus’ exclamation about one situation 2000 years ago shows us that the eternal, unchanging state of those inhabitants of Jerusalem is eternal torment. And please use Scripture alone, with a minimum of philosophical presupposition-wrangling.

Thanks in advance!

Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said, one verse overruled the others and that was never my intention nor do I have any hidden agenda other than asking you to explain this verse to me in light of your statement.

What if I said “contradicted” instead of “overruled”?

Please help us out here, Oxy. We want to see your point of view and why you believe this one verse contradicts(?) the Scriptural evidence Lefein listed. If it doesn’t “overrule” it, does it “contradict” it? What is the correct word, and what is your Scriptural reasoning?

God bless!

[_oxymoron]

Please help us out here, Oxy. We want to see your point of view and why you believe this one verse contradicts(?) the Scriptural evidence Lefein listed. If it doesn’t “overrule” it, does it “contradict” it? What is the correct word, and what is your Scriptural reasoning?

God bless!

NealF…seriously you need to pay attention. I am not questioning universalism but only Lefein’s statement. I gave him a verse which I would very much like to see how he can explain in light of his “STATEMENT”

[dirtboy]

There you have it. God’s irresistible will is “divine rape”. You heard it first here

(Matthew 23:37)

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

5For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening [this is why they were not willing] has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy .

32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

[Q. Who is he speaking of?
A. Israel!
Q. You mean Israel? He hardened Israel?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. So, Israel was not willing to go to Jesus and be gathered under His wings because God hardened them for a time?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. Why did He do that?
A. So that the Gentiles would be saved!
Q. But what about Israel?
A. He’s got that covered, for the hardening is only temporary. “God shut up all in disobedience so that he may show mercy to all” and so eventually that “all Israel will be saved”! That’s what it says!

Well that makes me want to shout]:

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

[Lefein]

I just wanted to put the verse Oxymoron presented, in context real quick.

Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And so it was upon the day he left Jerusalem, but here it is on the day that he returned to Jerusalem on a colt;

Mark 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

[_oxymoron]

[Q. Who is he speaking of?
A. Israel!
Q. You mean Israel? He hardened Israel?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. So, Israel was not willing to go to Jesus and be gathered under His wings because God hardened them for a time?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. Why did He do that?
A. So that the Gentiles would be saved!
Q. But what about Israel?
A. He’s got that covered, for the hardening is only temporary. “God shut up all in disobedience so that he may show mercy to all” and so eventually that “all Israel will be saved”! That’s what it says!

Well that makes me want to shout]:

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Can we please stick with the verse I gave then we can deal with the passage you gave

[_oxymoron]

I just wanted to put the verse Oxymoron presented, in context real quick.

Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And so it was upon the day he left Jerusalem, but here it is on the day that he returned to Jerusalem on a colt;

Mark 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

I have no clue how that puts it in context since the same people cried out “Crucify Him!” the next day but ok… The point I was trying to make is that that God does draws us to Him but it also has to do with our own will. Don’t ask me to explain it. It’s a paradox. To go in either direction is getting away from any kind of human understanding.

[Lefein]

I have no clue how that puts it in context but ok…

It isn’t implying any longer what you meant for it to imply. It puts it directly at its context; he’s talking to the people of Jerusalem at that point and time, and points out that while they reject him now, hence he leaves, he’ll come again - they will see him again, and they shall praise him.

And so they did.

They shall yet praise him again; All Israel shall be saved.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The point I was trying to make is that that God does draws us to Him but it also has to do with our own will.

Which is subject to change. God’s will however, shall be done, despite our wills in many cases. Need I mention Paul? The Damascus road?

You’re forgetting the key aspect to the whole verse you presented, and God Himself.

God is Love, and Love is patient. Love does not insist on its own way, but will have its way none the less, because God, being Love, will do all that he has planned for he is sovereign. He has consigned all to disobedience so he may show mercy to all, and he will show mercy to whom he will show mercy to.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. -ESV

“Love never fails”

Isaiah 46:10 telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: -Brenton’s Septuagint

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. -ESV
Exodus 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. -KJV

Nothing is stopping God from doing anything that is good for the people, and what better good than for them to obey and love him? If it is good for you, a wicked sinner, and good for me, the wickedest of sinners, then it is good for every sinner - and all fall short of the glory of God. There is no good in not being saved (unless you can point something out…), and God who loves the world enough to have given even Himself as The Son to die for them, will assuredly do good for that same “kosmos”.

God is patient, long-suffering. The Bible shows often God’s patience before rendering his corrective judgements (making idolatrous Israel, worshipers of Himself again through exile, invasion, and calamity), these verses are too numerous to quote as they riddle the Old Testament, so I’ll leave it to your own intelligence to recall them.

It is Patience which brings about the will of God in the unwilling; Such as with Paul whom was saved thoroughly unwillingly upon the Damascus road. Paul when he was Saul was going forth to murder Christians, not become one.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

Christ displays his perfect patience as an example, unto his glory most certainly, for those who will believe in him; and all shall believe in him, if only by sight as Thomas believed.

In other words, for your verse; “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing”

Firstly, the verse is taken out of context. Secondly, patience is the key. Jesus went out from Jerusalem rejected, he returned with praises.

---

Don’t ask me to explain it. It’s a paradox. To go in either direction is getting away from any kind of human understanding.

Then it is a paradox that God will have his will be done absolutely for all, even if some do not in their present condition will for His will, which is their salvation.

“Don’t ask me to explain it”

[dirtboy]

[Q. Who is he speaking of?
A. Israel!
Q. You mean Israel? He hardened Israel?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. So, Israel was not willing to go to Jesus and be gathered under His wings because God hardened them for a time?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. Why did He do that?
A. So that the Gentiles would be saved!
Q. But what about Israel?
A. He’s got that covered, for the hardening is only temporary. “God shut up all in disobedience so that he may show mercy to all” and so eventually that “all Israel will be saved”! That’s what it says!

Well that makes me want to shout]:

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Can we please stick with the verse I gave then we can deal with the passage you gave

You asked about Jerusalem being unwilling and why God wasn’t able to woo them; why were they successful in resisting Him. But it’s not a mystery. The scriptures answer the question and I gave the scripture that answers it. It is completely relevant! Why did Jerusalem successfully resist? Because God hardened their hearts! Why? So He could reach the Gentiles and then get the Jews jealous! Come on Oxy, this is basic stuff! You always ask people to provide scripture, well this verse answers your question!

[Lefein]

I would also add, Dirtboy is correct, it is exceedingly relevant what he has posted. Try not to ignore it so lightly.

[_oxymoron]

I have no clue how that puts it in context but ok…

It isn’t implying any longer what you meant for it to imply. It puts it directly at its context; he’s talking to the people of Jerusalem at that point and time, and points out that while they reject him now, hence he leaves, he’ll come again - they will see him again, and they shall praise him.

And so they did.

The point I was trying to make is that that God does draws us to Him but it also has to do with our own will.

Which is subject to change. God’s will shall be done, despite our wills in many cases. Need I mention Paul? The Damascus road?

You’re forgetting the key aspect to the whole verse you presented, and God Himself.

God is Love, and Love is patient. Love does not insist on its own way, but will have its way none the less, because God, being Love, will do all that he has planned for he is sovereign. He has consigned all to disobedience so he may show mercy to all, and he will show mercy to whom he will show mercy to.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. -ESV

“Love never fails”

Isaiah 46:10 telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: -Brenton’s Septuagint

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. -ESV
Exodus 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. -KJV

Nothing is stopping God from doing anything that is good for the people, and what better good than for them to obey and love him? If it is good for you, a wicked sinner, and good for me, the wickedest of sinners, then it is good for every sinner - and all fall short of the glory of God. There is no good in not being saved (unless you can point something out…), and God who loves the world enough to have given even Himself as The Son to die for them, will assuredly do good for that same “kosmos”.

God is patient, long-suffering. The Bible shows often God’s patience before rendering his corrective judgements (making idolatrous Israel, worshipers of Himself again through exile, invasion, and calamity), these verses are too numerous to quote as they riddle the Old Testament, so I’ll leave it to your own intelligence to recall them.

It is Patience which brings about the will of God in the unwilling; Such as with Paul whom was saved thoroughly unwillingly upon the Damascus road. Paul when he was Saul was going forth to murder Christians, not become one.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

Christ displays his perfect patience as an example, unto his glory most certainly, for those who will believe in him; and all shall believe in him, if only by sight as Thomas believed.

In other words, for your verse; “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing”

Firstly, the verse is taken out of context. Secondly, patience is the key. Jesus went out from Jerusalem rejected, he returned with praises.

---

Don’t ask me to explain it. It’s a paradox. To go in either direction is getting away from any kind of human understanding.

Then it is a paradox that God will have his will be done absolutely for all, even if some do not in their present condition will for His will, which is their salvation.

“Don’t ask me to explain it”

What? ! I ask Him to explain His “STATEMENT” dealing with that verse and how it applies furthermore that is not good hermeneutics. There is no paradox in “saving all” it either is or it isn’t.

[_oxymoron]

I would also add, Dirtboy is correct, it is exceedingly relevant what he has posted. Try not to ignore it so lightly.

No one is ignoring anything. I just want the verse I gave to be dealt with with in your statement. The verse says, God was willing but the people were not. So why couldn’t God gather them when He was willing dealing with that passage?

[_oxymoron]

[Q. Who is he speaking of?
A. Israel!
Q. You mean Israel? He hardened Israel?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. So, Israel was not willing to go to Jesus and be gathered under His wings because God hardened them for a time?
A. Yes, that’s what it says!
Q. Why did He do that?
A. So that the Gentiles would be saved!
Q. But what about Israel?
A. He’s got that covered, for the hardening is only temporary. “God shut up all in disobedience so that he may show mercy to all” and so eventually that “all Israel will be saved”! That’s what it says!

Well that makes me want to shout]:

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

The point I was trying to make Chris is even though I am a Calvinist and believe God “drags” us. I can also see verses that support the arminian view and that it is our will as well.