Walk according to the words of the Spirit.
“Remember the word that I said to you, ’ A servant is no greater than his master.’ if they persecuted Me , they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.”
Well, on one hand, if we perceive that the NT finds Jesus all over the place, including texts that were not originally seen by their writers as Messianic, it leads us to formulate an appropriate view of the Bible’s nature and its’ hermeneutics.
But mostly such texts pose the same question to us as they do to Jewish readers: Were they still right to find Jesus to be the Messiah who appropriately fulfills the promises to Israel? They think clearly not. I think: what a brilliant reinterpretation of God’s ways and solution, that fits the very truth of God’s universal love that we need!
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Can you elaborate on this?
Sure. Jew’s regular reaction to claims that Jesus matches OT texts seen as promising a Messiah (a new anointed Davidic king) is that Jesus doesn’t even come close. For those texts promise another violent military leader like David who will deliver Israel by again leading a slaughter of the pagan oppressors who rule over Israel, restore her Temple in Jerusalem, return Israel to a dominant position in the world wherein the nations will bring their tribute payments to Jerusalem, and bring in a prosperous era of peace in a new heavens and earth.
So for them a Mosaic Law breaking Davidic King who tells Jews to love such enemies and right off gets lynched by the pagan oppressor is an anemic non-starter that is nowhere close to the OT promises. At least for starters, it’s hard not to be sympathetic with why they vigorously dispute the Christian interpretation of Jesus.
When I was 21 years of ages as a student at a Bible school, part of my “practical work” was Jewish visitation. I once knocked at a door and presented to the Jewish man who answered, Isaiah 53 in English, Yiddish, and Hebrew. I asked him to read it. When he finished, I asked if he had ever previously read that passage. He said, “No.” Then I asked, “Whom do you think that is talking about?” He responded, “Why ha mashiach, of course!”
That Jewish man who had never before read Isaiah 53, understood it as speaking of the Messiah, whereas the official Jewish interpretation is that it refers to the nation of Israel.
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Yes, no Jew B. C. saw Isaiah’s suffering servant as the Messianic Davidic King for the reasons I gave, and a Jewish man who has never heard Isaiah is obviously not literate in Judaism. But today, secular Jews are widely exposed to Christianity’s version of Messiahship and will certainly recognize that Isaiah sounds like that and like Jesus.
Bob, The problem I see with the Old Testament, is that it speaks of two different faiths in two different covenants, one of the Spirit and one that was man-made, as reported in Gal. 4:21-31. However, both claimed to be the words of the God of Israel. This is the stumbling block for all who view the Bible as the infallible word. I’d say that some Jews B.C.did see Isaiah’s suffering servant as the ruler/rulers of Israel. In the beginning, God gave dominion to those made in His image ( born of the Spirit). And in Exodus 18:21 the rule of Israel was given to “men of truth”, those who fear God.
I’m aware of no ancient Jewish texts that interpret Isaiah 53’s suffering servant as Israel’s kingly ruler, or the longed for messianic son of David.
Bob Wilson wrote:
And no one sees Psalm 22 is about providing the details of a “crucifixion,” unless they already see the NT as an inspired reliable book.
I gave instance of a Jew (the president of a synagogue) who, when confronted with Psalm 2,22, and Isaiah 53 acknowledged that the passages seemed to be referring to Jesus and Bob replied:
Yes, of course Jews think the cited passages sound like (the NT portrait of) Jesus. For the whole intent of the NT writers was to align Jesus with those texts. But most Jews see no reason to trust the NT accounts, which they see as purposely being written to fit the OT which the writers already had in front of them.
Bob, you say:
no Jew B. C. saw Isaiah’s suffering servant as the Messianic Davidic King
How do you know this?
How ‘ancient’ would you like? How many ‘ancient’ texts do you know that interpret Isaiah 53 as the nation of Israel?
I refer you to the following pdf:
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Bob,
Isaiah 49: 3-7 says “And He said to me, ‘You are My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’ Then I said, ’ I have labored in vain, I have spent My strength for nothing and in vain; yet surely my just reward is with the lord, and my work with my God. And now the Lord says , who formed Me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel is gathered to Him( for I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and My God shall be my strength)…”
Isaiah 66:2 'But on this one I will look; on him ho is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word."
Isaiah 61:6-7 " But you shall be named the Priests of the Lord, men shall call you the Servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory you shall boast. instead of your shame you shall have double honor, and instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion…"
Isaiah was speaking of himself and others like him, who were following the Spirit.
As it says in Hebrews 11 of those who lived by faith in the Spirit. 36 “still others had trials of mockings, and scourging, yes and of chains and imprisonments. They were stoned , they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword… of whom the world was not worthy…”
Many did recognize Jesus as a man who represented the God they believed in.
You assume that all the people of Israel believed in the Levitical law as covenant and the word of God. However, this was not the case.
Sure, no one doubts that Isaiah saw the suffering servant as following the Spirit. I only said I’m unaware of any text before Christ that saw this servant as David’s conquering son.
I just know what I have been unaware of seeing: Jewish texts before Christ that take Isaiah’s suffering servant as the Messianic Davidic king. Are you familiar with some? My impression is that Jews have most commonly read this servant as a reference to Israel or to an individual Israelite martyr.
Possibly the Psalms of Solomon 17.4, 21-24, 30-2. From a footnote in PAFG,(Paul and the Faithfulness of God) NT Wright. I have not read the text of that work, only Wright’s quoting of it.
Dave, thanks, the 17th Psalm is classic messianic son of David. But I’m not seeing where it references or connects to Isaiah 53 at all.
I mentioned the Psalms of Solomon, Bob - are we talking about the same thing?
Yes, the 17th Psalm of Solomon.
Oh fine, now I have to go and read the thing. 
Actually now I see that I have read it. I thought I was answering something about the son of David, not Is. 53. It’s my hearing aids, their fault…
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Hi Bob.
So you are aware that you are unaware? That is quite different to knowing that Jews BC did not see Isaiah’s servant as their messiah which is what you said.
I’m not sure why your 'deadline of 1CE is relevant, but you have omitted to answer the question which I asked and I will be happy to respond when you have.
I asked:
How many ‘ancient’ texts do you know that interpret Isaiah 53 as the nation of Israel?
[quote=“pilgrim, post:249, topic:14070, full:true”]
Bob_Wilson:
Jewish texts before Christ that take Isaiah’s suffering servant as the Messianic Davidic king. Are you familiar with some?
You omitted to answer the question which I asked and I will be happy to respond when you have.
I asked: How many ‘ancient’ texts do you know that interpret Isaiah 53 as the nation of Israel?
Pilgrim, I never claimed exhaustive knowledge. What I specified is that I was not aware of historic Jewish texts before Jesus had come that interpret Isaiah 53 as Israel’s Davidic king.
I’m also don’t know texts that interpret it as the nation of Israel. (But googling Isaiah 53 Israel suggests many :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_53; https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/)
Now you’re welcome to tell me what you know. And does Isaiah 53 sound to you like one of the Davidic king texts?
I honestly suspect than none of Israel’s leaders perceived that the Biblical expectation was that they would murder Israel’s Messiah.