Isa 53 isn’t about a Davidic king per sé but is messianic. Andrew Perriman writes a good article on it…
Have a look at Wright’s JVOG pg. 589, 2nd paragraph and also notes 189 / 190.
1 Like
Davo, I thought the article was pretty good. I don’t think the suffering servant refers to just one particular person either. From what I understand Messiah means anointed by God ( born of the Spirit). As God promised Abraham in Genesis 17:6 " I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you."
All those who kept the commandments of God were the promised heirs. " And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God."
Here’s an interesting “theory”, Got Questions is examining on Isaac.
And here’s the Wiki take on Isaac
I like to share this, from the Roman Catholic priest - Fr. Richard Rohr. It’s from his email newsletter today. Since I have talked about RC, EO and Native American spirituality.
The human need for physical, embodied practices seems universal. Across Christian history, the “Sacraments,” as Orthodox and Catholics call them, have always been with us. Before the age of literacy started to spread in Europe in the sixteenth century, things like pilgrimage, prayer beads, body prostrations, bows and genuflections, “blessing oneself” with the sign of the cross, statues, sprinkling things with holy water, theatrical plays and liturgies, incense and candles all allowed the soul to know itself through the outer world—which we are daring to call “Christ.” These outer images serve as mirrors of the Absolute, which can often bypass the mind. Anything is a sacrament if it serves as a Shortcut to the Infinite, hidden in something that is very finite.
In 1969, I was sent as a deacon to work at Acoma Pueblo, a Native American community in western New Mexico. When I got there, I was amazed to discover that many Catholic practices had direct Indigenous counterparts. I saw altars in the middle of the mesas covered with bundles of prayer sticks. I noted how the people of Acoma Pueblo sprinkled corn pollen at funerals just as priests did holy water, how what we were newly calling “liturgical dance” was the norm for them on every feast day. I observed how mothers would show their children to silently wave the morning sunshine toward their faces, just as we learn to “bless ourselves” with the sign of the cross, and how anointing people with smoldering sage was similar to waving incense at our Catholic High Masses.
All these practices have one thing in common: they are acted out, mimed, embodied expressions of spirit. The soul remembers them at an almost preconscious level because they are lodged in our muscle memory and make a visual impact. The later forms of more rational Protestantism had a hard time understanding this.
I take Isaiah 53 as ‘messianic,’ but my only point was that Jews largely equated the Messiah with texts about a violent coming Davidic king (but not with Isaiah 53).
you said that " Jews B.C. did not see Isaiah’s suffering servant as the Messianic Davidic King." that sounds exhaustive to me and i have asked for evidence to support such a claim.
You seem to require Jewish commentary BC for the messianic interpretation and yet cannot supply Jewish commentary BC for the collective interpretation.
I have said that I do not see why this ‘BC’ deadline is relevant, as it would be even MORE persuasive if we have Jewish commentary post-BC which alludes to a messianic interpretation.
you ask of me (with regard to ancient Jewish messianic interpretation)
and I have already given you a pdf file which, amongst many other things, deals with Origens comments about Jewish interpretations he encountered. Did you read it? I also note some input from Maimonides and Nachmanides amongst other renowned Jewish scholars.
I have read your link.
I think that I also ought to state my general position re the OP of this thread.
I do not believe the Bible to be either infallible nor inerrant.
I have enjoyed and benefited from your past input on this forum which has been considered, thoughtful and scholastic but I do find that your input on this thread seems to me to be less scholastic and more emotional and I don’t know why that might be? Do you think there is even a grain of truth in what I have just stated or am I way off-beam?
I am certainly very grateful for your past input.
John
John, I appreciate your perseverance here, and sense you have a good case for more than a grain!
I’m sorry I came off to you as emotional. My Fuller OT profs (who got Ph.D.s at Jewish universities) argued that messianic interpretations of Isaiah 53 only arose after Christians applied it to Jesus, but they may have misled me. Frankly, while Jews saw suffering had a role in deliverance, I found my profs believable because Isaiah 53 does not sound to me anything like the kingly Davidic son of David texts that Jews generally point to as messianic, wherein the messiah kills Israel’s enemies rather than gets killed. And also because the servant songs explicitly call the servant “Israel.”
I have no doubt that Jews engaged Isaiah as messianic after the Christian era, but the reason I assumed that that is less convincing evidence of what the original interpretation was, is that Christian apologists were then already injecting that interpretation into that text’s discussion.
You’d said that you’d suggest texts after I provided texts suggesting the servant was Israel. So I gave the link stating, "the first book of the Talmud—Berachot 5a applies Isaiah 53 to the people of Israel and those who study Torah—“If the Holy One, blessed be He, is pleased with Israel or man, He crushes him with painful sufferings. For it is said: And the Lord was pleased with [him, hence] He crushed him by disease (Isa. 53:10). Now, you might think that this is so even if he did not accept them with love. Therefore it is said: “To see if his soul would offer itself in restitution” (Isa. 53:10). Even as the trespass-offering must be brought by consent, so also the sufferings must be endured with consent. And if he did accept them, what is his reward? “He will see his seed, prolong his days” (Isa. 53:10). And more than that, his knowledge [of the Torah] will endure with him. For it is said: “The purpose of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). It has been taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai says: The Holy One, blessed be He, gave Israel three precious gifts, and all of them were given only through sufferings… These are: The Torah, the Land of Israel and the World To Come.”
Yes, I did read McClain’s claim of many early references to Isaiah 53 as the Messianic King. He cites Talmudic references to the kings “suffering,” and it was hard to evaluate if these involved a reference to Isaiah 53, since of course David did model some real suffering. But on whether Jews expected their Messiah to be killed, etc, clearly I oversimplified the real debate and apparent evidence of early Jewish readings of messianic suffering.
I apologize for coming across dogmatically as if I ‘knew’ otherwise. What I meant to stress was that I was unaware of early Jewish texts that referred to the suffering servant as the Messiah, and I thank you for showing me the contrary case.
1 Like
And I too apologise. I have learned much from you and have still much to learn.
I find prophecy to be a powerful tool but it is useful to be aware when Christians exaggerate or are even deceitful in how they handle it.
Prophecy alone can never fully prove or convince for as we are reminded even if one should rise from the dead, some would not believe.
May God continue to bless your ministry.
1 Like
Here’s an interesting and relevant article - from today’s Patheos Evangelical newsletter
And perhaps this is, a second relevant article?
1 Like
Bob, Those who understood the Spirit weren’t looking for one particular man to be king. Many of the disciples in Jesus day didn’t even understand it at first and were sadly disappointed when Jesus told them He was going to be killed. This is human thinking, you put your guy in power and he makes everything all right again. What happens when the king dies or is killed by rebels? You’re right back to where you started. Israel already had a King, and when they asked for a human king God said " they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them." The kingdom is in the midst of us and the power is in the resurrection; when the hearts of the people return to God, when people wake up and start speaking and living in truth in unison with one voice, as one man.
I was only talking about how most Israelites understandably read texts.
Bob, Does it matter how most Israelites understood the texts? If they were looking for a human king to bring them back to glory, then they were wrong because it didn’t happen. One of the contributing factors in their downfall was the fact that they wanted to be ruled by a human king rather than obey God’s rule. This is illustrated in the story of Adam and Eve. “Did God really say that if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that you will die? Surely not!”
All Israelites didn’t believe in the same things, just as all Christians today have different beliefs. This is why the Bible is full of warnings about false shepherds and false teachings.
Only if I’m interested in understanding what’s going on in the Bible’s narrative.
Gee Whiz. I have to stop reading the Patheos’ newsletters. At least the Evangelical one. Today’s article headlines are shocking. Truly shocking.
Well Bob… you have to take into account LLC has the backing of someone traditionally considered highly powerful and influential to back up her teaching.
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
The evidence doesn’t lie… 
Hum! I wonder if LLC, uses the same sources…as I use, to talk about my theory…that Z-Hell (1, 2, 3), is the most probable - end times tribulation scenario?
Who dat?
I think davo’s being snakey about the sneak, or vice versa.
Nothing sneaky Bob, lol… it’s there in black and white 
LOL, I’ve always preferred seeing talking snakes in black and white, rather than color.
3 Likes
Yes, I know who said these words. And as Bob and I were discussing, if most of the Israelites were looking for an earthly king to save the day, then they were falsely led astray in their beliefs. They were forewarned in Samuel about the behavior of earthly kings. " Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, 'No but we will have a king over us that we also may be like other nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us to fight our battles."