The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?


#101

Ran.

Your thinking is beyond comprehension. I’m going to stop trying to figure out why you say the things you say. I’m sorry you can’t wrap your religious mind around the simplicity of the analogy.


#102

I like mine better. Everyone gets a buck and goes out for ice cream and everyone gives thanks for the GIFT to the GIVER. That’s the way salvation actually works and way in which it is presented is everything, i.e. The Gospel.

In your version, Christ’s redemption isn’t true or only potentially true - which amounts to the same thing. So in your version it’s the believer who propitiates God to turn things around or whatever.

Why should anyone be expected to believe something that is not true? Or worse, believe something to MAKE it true - which is magic.

20th Century evangelicalism has distorted the Good News beyond all recognition. What we hear now is not what they heard in the 1st Century = Christ redeemed everyone, everyone will be resurrected and that there is a purpose in the resurrection - not to torment but to heal.


#103

Ran.

Grace without your positive response of faith won’t save you. Your fable will send everyone to hell. Wake up!!


#104

Aaron37,
Listen, you act as if understanding the balance of grace and faith is the answer to determinism and libertarian free will. People here at TEU have different beliefs on grace and faith. They discuss it in the soteriology room. That’s why Ran pointed you there.

We understand how you think salvation works and there are probably some Universalists who agree or come close. What you don’t seem to understand is that your free will position has dragged you to insert into scripture your own ideas such as:

God has reconciled himself unto man:

So here is our response:
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us **to himself **through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world **to himself **in Christ,

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile **to himself **all things,

Col 1:22 But now he has **reconciled you **by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

We hold that God indeed RECONCILED, the world, us, we, all things, you. UNTO HIMSELF.

Now when and how do you believe God first reconciled himself unto us? Please this time don’t ignore the question. It’s the second time I’ve asked.

Aug

PS. notice that when we are reconciled to God who does it.


#105

Auggy.

When do we put the flashlight to your false view of God’s sovereignty?

Reconcile means to make friendly or to bring back into harmony. So your question really is ‘How does God bring himself back into harmony with mankind’? The Lord made us friendly. He brought us- not only believers, but all mankind- back into harmony with God. The debt has been paid. now we must receive. We must put our faith in the Lord before what He has provided has its full effect in our lives. But God’s wrath has been appeased. Man may not be reconciled to God, but God has been reconciled to man. His wrath is over- and He’s given us the ministry of reconciliation. Hallelujah! Isn’t that great news Auggy!!! Praise God.


#106

We will do that in philosphy if you like.

Actually you are incorrect. My question is precise:
Now when and how do you believe God first reconciled himself unto us? Please this time don’t ignore the question. It’s the second time I’ve asked.

you replied:

First you defined Reconcile as “Reconcile means to make friendly or to bring back into harmony” so now I’m truly confused by your position because here you state: “He brought us- not only believers, but all mankind- back into harmony with God” then you state “Man may not be reconciled to God”. I understand you to say in your response:
God has reconciled (made friendly, brough into harmony) ALL unto himself.
and
Man is not reconciled to God (man may not be reconciled to God)

I think you’re confused.

Now please give the scriptures that teach that God was reconciled to man. You want scriptures that teach universalism, so I also am asking for a 3rd time for scripture that teaches that God reconciled himself unto the world/man.


#107

Auggy.

Let me help you understand. Jesus made a difference in the way God relates to mankind. That is what the angels were praising Him for in Luke 2:14. They were really saying, “Glory to God in the highest. The war is over!” The anger and wrath of God has been atoned and appeased. God’s wrath was placed upon His Son, and He isn’t angry anymore. Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus.

Now we must receive. We must put our faith in the Lord before what He has provided has its full effect in our lives.


#108

Auggy.

you said: We will do that in philosphy if you like.

Aaron37: Me like. Me like very much.


#109

Dearest Aaron37,
I asked 3 times for scripture that says God reconciled himself unto man and you provided" 14"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

I don’t know how to help you because you not only did you not provide scripture which states God reconciled himself to the world BUT you also ignored the fact that I showed you how you contradicted yourself.

here is what I understood you to say:

  1. God reconciled all men unto himself
  2. men are not reconciled unto God
    conclusion
    Men need to be reconciled to God.

Aug


#110

Auggy.

I don’t need help.

Auggy, I am your father! ( Aaron37 strikes back) Lol. ya know (empire strikes back) Anywho.

Here is the Amplified version of 2 Cor 5:18…simply marvelous…enjoy.

18 But all things are from God, who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself ] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation that by the word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].

Why do you think we are given the ministry of reconciliation? Answer: Man needs to receive and put their faith in Jesus before what He has provided has its full effect in their lives. Comprende? Is the light bulb going off Aug?


#111

I have near unlimited patience Aaron37. So let me help you to understand what it means to take serious the word of God.

You stated in one paragraph the following:

  1. Man has been brought into harmony with God (reconciled)
  2. man is not reconciled to God but God is reconciled to man.

So which is it?

If Man has been reconciled unto God AND God has been reconciled unto man then what exactly is your positions?

Seriously address your obvious contradiction. How else can someone grow if (like mormons) they simply accept the contradiction due to other pre-suppositions? You really need to address the question and show how you are not in contradiction.

Aug


#112

Auggybendoggy,

I, too, have unlimited patience. I, too, take the Word of God seriously. No contradiction. Just discernment error on your part.

God has brought Himself into harmony with man. Why? because he wants an intimate relationship with them. How? By not imputing their trespasses unto them. By imputing the trespasses unto Jesus on the cross. It is the body of Christ job to reconcile man back to Him. Why do you think we are given the ministry of reconciliation? Answer: Man needs to receive and put their faith in Jesus before what He has provided has its full effect in their lives.

Btw, Paul is talking to the Corinthian church…born again believers that are reconciled back to God by faith in Jesus. God reconciled or was brought back into harmony with man by judging Jesus for their sins. God made a way to have a intimate relationship with Him through Jesus. Now, man is obligated to take and put their faith in Jesus ( as did the Corinthian church) to make this harmony a reality in their lives. Auggy, do you read me? Come in Auggy.


#113

Auggybendoggy,

Aaron, I was kidding with you. My patience is near is being pushed because you won’t answer clearly where scripture states where God reconciled himself to the world.

I know you take the word of God seriously, I was kidding around.

Scriptures please.

Why? because he wants an intimate relationship with them. How? By not imputing their trespasses unto them. By imputing the trespasses unto Jesus on the cross.

It is the body of Christ job to reconcile man back to Him. Why do you think we are given the ministry of reconciliation? Answer: Man needs to receive and put their faith in Jesus before what He has provided has its full effect in their lives. Auggy do you read me? Come in Auggy.

LOL of course I read you, do you read yourself LOL.

Would you say that God in fact does not reconcile ANYONE unto himself, since that is man’s job?


#114

Auggy.

Btw, Paul is talking to the Corinthian church…born again believers that are reconciled back to God by faith in Jesus. God reconciled or was brought back into harmony with man by judging Jesus for their sins. God made a way for man to have a intimate relationship with Him through Jesus. Now, man is obligated to take and put their faith in Jesus ( as did the Corinthian church) to make this harmony a reality in their lives. I can see the light bulb flickering.

The foundation scripture references for this discussion has always been 2 Cor 5:18-19. I don’t know why you keep asking.


#115

Auggy.

you said: Would you say that God in fact does not reconcile ANYONE unto himself, since that is man’s job?

Aaron37: Did you know that I used to believe in Reform/Calvinistic theology? Thank God the chains of bondage of those false doctrines have been broken. What do you mean God does not reconcile Anyone unto himself?


#116

Yes you keep saying the same thing over and over but you avoid the contradiction you stated, why?

OH MY! You either are ignorant of the point or you just knowingly are avoiding the point.

It’s CLEAR as day, (you remind me of a mormon who when asked if they believe in multiple gods, starts dancing and avoids answering)

So here it is for the LAST TIME:
YOU STATED God has reconciled ALL unto himself.
YOU STATED MAN IS NOT RECONCILED UNTO GOD!

now either man is reconciled unto GOD OR NOT!

WHICH IS IT? if you fail to answer this last time then all I can say is we’ll be praying for you because your ideas are far more important to you than what the scriptures actually say. I say that with sincereity. We all approach scripture with pre-suppositions and so we all have differences. HOWEVER, you’ll find that most people on this site can at least admit their weaknesses. Though they maintain thier position (and they should) they acknowledge when they are in contradiction and either will explain why it is not contradictory or why they mistated or will at least conceed their point needs further research and possibly even conceed droppint that point.

You however have no such intention to find fault in your own view.

I have over and over clearly stated why and how you are in contradiction on the premise of man being reconciled and you simply keep stating your view of how salvation works…NEWS FLAH!!! I understand how you believe MAN MUST RECONCILE HIMSELF TO GOD.

Aaron37: Did you know that I used to believe in Reform/Calvinistic theology? Thank God the chains of bondage of those false doctrines have been broken. What do you mean God does not reconcile Anyone unto himself?
Yes, you have stated that over and over, did you know I’m not a calvinist? Hardly important.
I’m not saying God does not reconcile anyone to himself…
I"M SAYING YOU DO!
because you stated it when you said
" Man may not be reconciled to God, but God has been reconciled to man"
and i’ve shown you scripture that says Man is reconciled to God (by his doing).

So before we proceed please answer the contradiction you purposed (which I’m supposed to believe)
God has reconciled man unto himself
Man is not reconciled unto God, God is reconciled unto man.

Seriously, If you waste another post not addressing this then I won’t be voted off the Island, I’m swimming myself for mainland!


#117

Auggy.

Seriously, don’t blame me for your lack of discernment issues. The key to reconciliation is effectively dealing with the enmity, ill will, hatred, or hostility that has caused the dispute, etc.

The enmity between man and God was sin. God took the initiative to remove this barrier through the means and agency of Jesus Christ, thus leaving man and God as friends once again.

William F. Beck translates this verse in the following way: “But God has done it all. When we were His enemies, through Christ He made us His friends and gave us the work of making friends of enemies.”

2 Cor. 5:18: Notice that we have received the ministry of reconciliation. That means that we are in the ministry of reconciling people to God. Much of what people call the gospel today is actually alienating man from God. True, we need to show people their need for God to get them to receive His forgiveness and reconciliation, but the anger and bitterness with which many confront the sinner is not correct.

In the next verse, Paul says that the way God used Jesus to reconcile the world unto Himself was by not imputing their sins unto them . That’s the way we should minister. We should not major on the problem of sin, but on the answer of God’s grace (Rom. 5:20).

So, Auggy, “Man may not be reconciled to God, but God has been reconciled to man” God has reconciled himself to man through Jesus Christ. Now man must put their “Faith” in Jesus Christ to be reconciled to God. Understand?


#118

Fine. But in your next breathe, you’ll tell us that God is not REALLY reconciled to man if a man doesn’t believe it or ‘accept’ it as fact. In other words, God’s reconciliation is not really real or factual - a thing to be believed because it is true whether believed or not. One second, you’ll tell us Christ accomplished something real, and the next second, that He accomplished nothing.

If a man hasn’t believed it or doesn’t believe it, then God’s reconciliation to man goes poof! It is no longer universal, i.e. applicable to mankind - and in all those cases, ends at death, or so YOU say. You only hold a truth until it becomes inconvenient.

So, you see, you don’t really believe God is reconciled to man either - other than a second or two before it goes poof! and turns into something else.

Your ‘theology’ is like watching a magic show.


#119

Aaron37,
Can you find a verse which says that God reconciled Himself to man?

Sonia


#120

If one understands the Law being fulfilled by Christ (including it’s penalties), then that does reconcile His Justice and His Justice, by extension, is Him.

In that regard then, and if Christ is, indeed, the God/man, it is accurate to say that He did reconcile Himself.