The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?


#121

Aaron,
But I’ve shown you scriptures that state the world was being reconciled to him IN CHRIST JESUS.

So it seems you don’t believe that in the sense or “reconciliation”.

If God has reconciled himself to man
and
God has reconciled man unto himself.

Then what is left?

What I hear you denying over and over (without saying it) is God has not reconciled man unto himself.


#122

This is already turning into a minefield.

Reconciliation is always an interior process brought on by an exterior event. I can say that I am reconciled to you, but that does not necessarily mean that you are reconciled to me. In other words, I can’t say, ‘I reconciled you’ - that’s a nonsense statement.

“Be reconciled TO God” not BY God. In that regard, both God and man are said to be reconciled by the SAME event - and that remains a wholly interior process for both. ‘Be reconciled to the reconciled God’ would be a true statement.

A man (an unbeliever) who is not reconciled to the reconciled God will create events - works or even faith - to reconcile himself in terms of God’s justice in hopes that those events (rather than the cross) will reconcile God. This is A37’s actual position - as we watch the reconciled God disappear with every other sentence he writes.

Reconciliation then, is a two way street but on the same street and looking at the same thing. Watch as A37 shifts focus from the cross to himself as the grounds for God’s reconciliation.

Bottom-line: We are to be reconciled to the fact that God is atoned - not that WE atone God in any manner, whatsoever.

So both the divine and the human look to the SAME grounds (the cross) for their respective (interior) reconciliation with the other.


#123

Sonia.

2 Cor 5:19. Reconcile means to bring back into harmony. God brought himself back into harmony with mankind by not imputing their sins and imputing them to Jesus. Sin is what separated man from God. Jesus took care of that. God reconciled or brought himself back into harmony with mankind through Jesus.


#124

Ran & Auggy.

Grace without a positive response of faith will not save you or reconcile you( bring you back into harmony with God) it will kill you and send you to hell.

You guys have a hard time understanding God reconciling himself to man because of your false view of God’s grace and sovereignty. All that means is sin has been put away and dealt with and not counted against anyone. Sin was judged in Jesus. Sin is no longer a barrier between God and man. Its no longer an issue. That is why the body of Christ has the ministry of reconciliation… to reconcile lost sinners back to God by faith in Jesus.The lost are reconciled back to God only by “Faith” in Jesus… If man were reconciled back to God without having “Faith” in Jesus there would be no need to have a ministry of reconciliation. Man is reconciled back to God by Faith, Auggy & Ran.


#125

I have no idea exactly what you mean by that.

Typically, the way you use the term, you mean: ‘God is reconciled to only the reconciled (those who have faith that He is reconciled).’

It’s a Mexican stand-off. As I said before: “Watch as A37 shifts focus from the cross to himself as the grounds for God’s reconciliation.” Which is exactly what you are doing.

If I say that God is reconciled to sinners. You always say that God isn’t reconciled. And then shift the reason for reconciliation from the cross to the sinner himself.

God has been reconciled by the cross. PERIOD. Not by our paltry and often errant faith in it. Reconcile that!


#126

Ran.

That is because you have a false view of grace. You leave faith out of it. Grace without the positive response of faith profits you nothing. Do you not understand that Ran? If faith has nothing to do with being reconciled back to God…then why are we told to have a ministry of reconciliation and to reconcile the lost back to God?


#127

Aaron37,

Please pay close attention to the words here:

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Do you notice the words I have bolded for emphasis?

Here they are again:
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself

Look at that carefully and tell me–who in this verse is being reconciled to whom? And who is doing the reconciling?

Do you really think that statement is saying “God reconciled himself to the world”? :open_mouth:

Take it as it is and quit twisting it to fit what you think it ought to say.

Sonia


#128

Both are doing the reconciling! First, God’s justice was reconciled to himself through Christ. Secondly, man’s thinking is to be reconciled to the fact they were a new creation through the same Christ.

“God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ” is a statement about His Justice - not us per se - or why would Paul word it that way? Why not just say “God reconciled us.” ? Because it’s a nonsense statement - it makes no sense. There has to a cause for reconciliation which is always mutual - that is, something commonly held by both parties. In this case, it’s Christ.

God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


#129

Sonia.

I think you are speaking to hastily.

What did God do in 2 Cor 5:19 Sonia? God reconciled or brought back into harmony the world unto himself. God was in Christ bringing the world back into harmony with himself. How? By not imputing the world sins unto them. God judged Jesus and imputed the sins of the world unto Him. Sin was the barrier that separated man from God. That is no longer the case. That is what the verse is teaching. God was in Christ and brought the world back into harmony with himself through the sacrifice of His Son. Please pay attention before you make condescending remarks.

“Man may not be reconciled to God, but God has been reconciled to man” God has brought himself back into harmony with man through Jesus Christ. Now man must put their “Faith” in Jesus Christ to partake of this harmony.


#130

Ran.

Are you saying that the world is reconciled to God without faith in Jesus Christ?


#131

Sheesh, God is reconciled to sinners irregardless of faith. Faith has nothing to do with it.

It’s not your silly version of a Mexican stand-off. 'I’ll reconcile you if you reconcile me." Whatever that nonsense can possibly mean.

Where’s John, anyway, I hope he’s doing OK.


#132

Ran.

So all grace and no faith, huh Ran? 2 Corinthians 5:20 “Therefore, we serve as ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as though God were appealing through us: we implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God!”

Ran, if the world is reconciled to God irregardless of faith, why is God pleading through believers for the world to be reconciled to Him?


#133

That’s a circular nonsense question. Did you mean:

“If God is reconciled to the world through Christ irregardless of faith, why is God pleading through believers for the world to be reconciled to Him?”

If so, it’s because He wants all men to believe that He has been reconciled to THEM (the world) through Christ. He wants them to repent of ‘old thinking’ and otherwise reconcile their thinking with that FACT. It then becomes ‘new’ thinking appropriate for the new creation Christ has already made of them.

“So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.” All you see is a ‘sinner’, but Paul sees all men as a new creation in Christ. Reconcile that! This the keystone verse for understanding what Paul is talking.

If you cannot reconcile your thinking, then you must go back to square one and repent for the way you view other human beings until you have reconciled and found harmony with God’s thinking about human beings as new creations in Christ.

Until then you will remain stubborn and unrepentant and outside real understanding of these things, while pretending that you do understand these things.


#134

Ran.

You said: If so, it’s because He wants all men to believe that He has been reconciled to THEM (the world) through Christ. He wants them to repent of ‘old thinking’ and otherwise reconcile their thinking with that FACT. It then becomes ‘new’ thinking appropriate for the new creation Christ has already made of them.

“So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.” All you see is a ‘sinner’, but Paul sees all men as a new creation in Christ. Reconcile that!

Aaron37: Your getting close… He wants them to believe in Jesus to partake of this reconciliation.


#135

Aaron37,

It’s hard to believe that people can be so stubborn. When you came on this site you requested scriptures that teach Universalism. Yet as we dialogue we give you scriptures of which EVERY single one of them teaches that SINNERS ARE RECONCILED TO GOD.

I realize that your pardaigm and ideas form the way you read the text. We all do that. But at the very least you could admit that you can see why Universalists read the text that ALL THINGS (sinners, creation, the world) are reconciled TO God. If you cannot see why we would conclude that, then there’s no hope for you to connect with us. It’s like a mormon bringing in the book of mormon into a discussion…we don’t believe the book of mormon. In this case we show you over and over and over and you still turn and say MAN MAY NOT BE RECONCILED TO GOD???

Do you expect us to take you serious?


#136

It’s statements like that convinces me that you don’t understand these things. You throw religious words around and hope that something will stick. Dart-board-theology.

Read and THINK on the above. It is clear that Everyone has ‘partaken’ in this reconciliation of God through Christ. To believe it makes one special - a Christian worthy of awards for spreading that truth because they are, like God, reconciled to it. BUT YOU DON’T BELIEVE IT. And you don’t feel compelled to spread that message - which is proof again that you need to repent. You want to qualify what Paul said, as if THAT got you off the hook! Silly unrepentant man.

You came here for a reason. You think it was to convert us to right thinking - but what if God has something else planned for you?


#137

Auggy & Ran.

You both are blinded to your false view of grace. Grace without the positive response of faith won’t save you, won’t reconcile you, but it will certainly kill you and send you to hell in a hand basket.


#138

I apologise for my choice of words–I did not mean to come across as condescending.

I’m flabbergasted at how you can see that the verse says one thing, and then conclude that it says another. I really don’t know how to answer that kind of thinking. With that approach, you can make the Scriptures say pretty much anything you want it to.

Can you refer me to any passages that specifically say that “God reconciled himself to the world”? Or even that God needed to be reconciled to the world?

That is what I am asking for–not a discussion about why the passage really means something different than what it plainly says.

Sonia
(btw–just for the record–I would also take issue with some of the other things you say the passage means, however it’s pointless to discuss anything if you insist on making your own meanings.)


#139

Sonia.

If you don’t believe that man must put their faith in Jesus to be reconciled to God through Jesus… there is not much more to say.


#140

Sonia, Auggy & Ran.

Before I end this discussion I would like your thoughts on this scripture.

2 Cor 5:18 “But all things are from God, who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself ] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation that by the word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him].”

1)Do you agree that the “us” Paul is referring to is himself and every believer in the Corinthian church?
2) Do you believe that this verse teaches that the reason they are reconciled is because they are in Christ by faith?
3) Do you agree according to this scripture that the ministry of reconciliation is that believers aim to bring others into harmony with God?
4) what do you believe this verse is teaching?