The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Erasing Hell by Francis Chan...response to Rob Bell's book

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Here is a 10-min video by a guy who is critical of Rob Bell’s “Love Wins” and he’s talking about how “God’s ways are above our ways” and his justice is above ours. The guy has a good attitude. His approach isn’t as arrogant as others who come to the table talking about this topic. It’s clear that he is on the side of ECT. One thing that frustrates me is the assumption that when saying “God wouldn’t do that…” is must be based on up putting our own opinion above Gods. What about saying, "God wouldn’t do that because of what he has revealed about himself in the scriptures?

One thing I would like to bring up is that the picture that we paint sometimes of the “God of Love” is much more beautiful than the picture that is painted in some portions of scripture (Like the section in Exodus 32 that Chan talks about where God tells them to take swords and kill their family and friends who are in rebellion against him). Chan brings up some things that God does in the scripture that make me really uncomfortable. I don’t always know what to do with the things revealed in the scriptures. I know I need to submit to his word, but it’s not always easy. My hope is that I remain true to him and not reject something because I don’t like it. It really is the height of arrogance to go around judging God based on how you think things should be. I can’t make God in my image.

youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSY … detailpage

Robin: Chan on Hell
#2

I think what bothers me most about these guys is that they don’'t want to seem to answer questions. I went to Chan’s website and he basically says that he won’t be answering any emails.

francischan.org/#/contact

#3

I think this video might be the same as this one? Robin: Chan on Hell

#4

It is! Sorry, I didn’t see that there was already a topic on it :astonished:

#5

While pointing out the harder-core portions of scripture is necessary and important, too (there are a couple of whole small books in the OT where no hope of salvation from sin at all is mentioned but only God wrathing against sinners in order to protect the ‘faithful’–maybe), anyone who tries the popular tactic of quoting “Gods ways are higher than our ways” in favor of ECT has already revealed they aren’t paying enough attention themselves to the scriptures.

Because when God said that in the OT, He was talking about having mercy on rebel sinners (who have in effect murdered God!!), and restoring them to fellowship with Him after having ruined and shamed them utterly (as a result of the intercession of the Suffering Servant, as well as just because God is that much more awesomely loving than what we sinners are inclined to expect.)

Isaiah 55:8

But for the fuller effect, start back at chapter 53, concerning the Suffering Servant; and then go through 54, where the reproach of Israel’s widowhood will be remembered no more, for her husband is YHWH Sabaoth.

“For YHWH has called you, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even like a wife of youth when she is rejected,” says your God. “In a brief moment I forsook you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting lovingkindness will have compassion on you,” says YHWH your Redeemer.

Christ, I love those verses so much I’m actually planning to quote part of chp 54 in Book 4 of my novels (as a promise to a character who sort-of analogues Israel. :slight_smile: ) Chapter 55 is [size=200]ENTIRELY[/size] more of the same.

People who quote this don’t even have the excuse of referring to somewhere else in scripture which is quoting Isaiah: that chapter in Isaiah is the only place that phrasing is found. They are solely quoting Isaiah 55:8 (and 9). [size=200]***AND UTTERLY REVERSING THE MEANING OF IT!!!***[/size]

If some pewperson does it, that’s more understandable, since they’ve probably been told that in order to crush their hope. But for a teacher or preacher to do so, in order to crush the hope of salvation and restoration from God (much moreso the hope of salvation of God from our sins promised by that verse)…

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/upfiles/smiley/intrepidphasers.gif

Okay, I have to go do something else for a while, so I can stop ranting when thinking about this…

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/upfiles/smiley/blowup6ba.gif http://www.wargamer.com/forums/upfiles/smiley/Takecover.gif

#6

WOW!! I hadn’t read that in a while - was that an eye opener!

#7

Okay, I’ve slightly calmed down…

Like everyone else, I agree that Francis has a great, winning personality.

But it has to be said: he looked up that quote (enough to know it came from Isaiah 55), and pointed at the Bible when he referenced it, and then deployed it absolutely against its context.

After kind-of dismissing the concept of trying to get any coherent understanding out of the Bible on theology.

He talked about the importance of “putting it all out there” and “letting you make up your own mind about it” (before basically saying that no one has any chance of getting it right); but then he doesn’t put the very verse he references out there so that people can decide for themselves how to deploy it. He prooftexts it utterly out of its topical context. And tries to use it against the hope of its actual context.

What.

The.

Hell.

There may be passages where there are things that are difficult for you to stomach, Francis; no doubt there are passages in Isaiah itself that may be difficult for you to stomach. I can sympathize with that. Those have to be dealt with, too.

But if those other passages you ref are difficult for you to stomach, you should have had an extremely easy time stomaching THE PASSAGE YOU QUOTED ABOUT GOD’S WAYS BEING HIGHER THAN OUR WAYS!! Because that whole chapter, and the one leading into it (and the subsequent one for a while) are all awesome saving hopefulness in what humans would naturally be inclined to supposed was an authoritatively hopeless situation (since the punishment was coming from God for basically MURDERING GOD!)

Oh and by the way, those related verses you started with, concerning potter and clay? Guess what their context was in the OT from which St. Paul was quoting. No, better yet, don’t guess, because obviously you’re going to guess wrong. How about looking them up and talking about those, when creating a video about how we can’t afford to get hell wrong?

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Okay, I need to go do business things for a while and cool off…

#8

And by the way 2: There are two more chapters after Rev 20, Francis. The story doesn’t “end” there.

Amusingly, he quotes far more from this than from his “My ways” quote on which he built his whole sermon.

“I want to say, here’s all that God has written, I don’t want to draw any conclusions that aren’t there.”

Fine, get to it. Let me know when you start accounting for all that God has written and concluded on the subject, rather than stopping short…

After a while, his attitude starts to seem disingenuous. “I’m writing a book right now, and I want you all to pray for me so that I won’t miss anything etc.” Out next month!–this is the book promo video!! He’s already written the book, it’s in printing right now!!! This isn’t a case where he’s publishing it electronically as soon as he gets it ready.

Remember, we’re like clay explaining the potter to each other, we haven’t got a chance to get it right, His ways are that much higher than our ways, [size=50]COMING IN JULY “WHAT GOD SAID ABOUT ETERNITY AND THE THINGS WE’VE MADE UP”![/size] {tinkle tinkle pling :slight_smile: }

#9

Well said, Jason! :smiley:

Sonia

#10

:laughing:

I don’t think I’ve ever seen you go on a rant like this one ended by this post. That was awesome… :mrgreen:

#11

I’m trying very hard not to rant, because he seems like a nice guy. I have nothing but respect for how, like John Piper, he gives most of his money to charity and mission work, and tries not to get rich from his popularity. But dang.

For anyone who doesn’t recognize it, that tiny font joke at the end was based on how the video promotes his book at the end: it’s the subtitle of his book. The tinkle plink is the earnest piano meandering throughout the video. The shot composition techniques (and the music) kept making me want to start creating a voice over about how the side effects of this medicine include but are not limited to…

I think I watched too many episodes of Mystery Science Theater 3000 in college. :wink:

(Why yes, I do have a total collection of all the episodes on DVDs in a box at the house, even all extant Season 0 eps before the series was remade into what we recognize now starting with “The Creeping Eye”.)

#12

Mystery Science Theater… :laughing: :sunglasses: I’d like to go back and watch those again one day…

But see, when you (even controllably) “rant”, it’s great, because you make very good points in doing so! Humor is a very effective communication tool, even if it is borne out of frustration…

#13

To be fair, if he had spent even ten seconds revealing to readers what the context of the verse he was building his sermon from was, and then saying “but even though this is awesomely awesome and something we all would wish for, and is exactly what God is explicitly talking about when He says that His ways are higher than ours, there’s still a bunch of other things that we also have to take seriously even when they bother us”–and then tried to make his case…?

I wouldn’t have plotzed so hard. Seriously. I would have admired him for doing what he said he was going to do and trying to make his case anyway. I probably wouldn’t have commented negatively at all.

But he starts off talking about how he has been challenged to dig deep and to learn some new things and to be humbled by what he learned and how what he thought was clear wasn’t and what he didn’t think clear was…

…AND THEN DOES THAT???

How could he possibly have done those things and yet missed the context of that verse?!

Or if he did find out the context, why did he actively mislead his audience into thinking it must be talking about exactly the opposite of what it does say–precisely following and reinforcing the conventional misleading popular usage of it?!

I want to believe he’s as earnest as he and his cameraman (and his plinkly piano score and his brief concerned prayerful musing side-shot) present him as. But the evidence, when it’s added up…

I have to go away and do something else again for a while. :angry: :angry: :angry:

#14

I just realized his approach is almost literally “Mystery Theology Theater”.

While I’m goosing and gandering, though: Rob’s book promo video was equally precious in its rhetorical design.

#15

I totally hear you on how maddening it is. I seriously wonder if these guys are really being intellectually dishonest, or if they truly are blinded to the truth (which is the direction I lean toward). It’s sort of like my daughter. She has the WORST “refrigerator blindness” I have ever seen. She can literally be looking directly at something and not see it…!?

I seriously think these guys have a bad case of “scriptural refrigerator blindness”. :mrgreen:

#16

I just wish Fridge Logic would kick in eventually…

#17

:laughing: Me too.

#18

JP,

Your insights on this post are both entertaining and spot on.

I thank God for you man.

:stuck_out_tongue:

I get more clarity regarding scripture from this board then any church I’ve ever been to. What does that say?

The fact that so many of these non universalists argue either without scripture or out of context is very revelaing as to why they hold their traditional belief in ECT.

Hey can we start a post that contains all the acronyms used by those on these boards? sometimes I have a hard time knowing exactly what the acronym stands for, and from a newbie speaking here, it may be helpful for future newer newbies. ECT, UR I think I have those ones down but sometimes encounter others that I have to guess on, cant think of which ones off the top of my head.

#19

The FAQ sheet for the site mostly talks about code issues (so far), but starts with a brief list of abbreviations. Could stand some expansion. :wink:

#20

I am SO glad I don’t have a shiny white room, a webcam, and a few printouts of his face, in different expressions, with rubber bands attached for wearing (i.e. over my face).

Because I am not sure I could resist doing a parody video.