The Evangelical Universalist Forum

EUs, Arminis & Calvs -- OH MY!!!

Romans 5:18 simply means Salvation is now AVAILABLE to all, not APPLIED to all. Your Conscience’s ( GODS VOICE WITHIN US )are warning you of hell because there is such a place and the Holy Bible explicity declaires it. Just one example ( Revalation 14:9-13 ). Anyone who tells you different has fallen under delusion from disobediance towards God and is a liar: ( 2 Tessalonians 2: 1-14 ). There will be a permanent separation of souls on Judgement Day says Revalation 20:11-15 ( the sheep and the goats, those on the left and those on the right, those whose names are written down in the book of life and those whose are not ).God loves you, so he is warning you through your heart. Dont just believe me, Study your Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding and he will. Unfortunatly this teaching of no hell is a satanic Lie, for satan wants you to perish with no chance of Eternal Salvation. This is the spiritual warfare you see and feel going on in the world today. But there is no reason to fear hell for those in Christ Jesus because Eternal Salvation is a free gift to those who Believe…You just need to Believe Christs word. Repent and Follow Him ( Romans 10:8-13 ). Hebrews 13:5-6 God says to those who follow him " I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU ", So we know if we Believe in him and take up our Cross and follow him, He will be Faithful in his Promise. But for those who refuse to accept Christ and his free gift ( Matthew 13:36-43 ). God is Love, but in true Love there is also punishment for those whom reject the Preciouse Sacrafice of The Lamb of God. True Love is not pacafism. Study the books of Hebrews and 1 John for the true meaning of Love. For your own sakes, Pray to the Holy Spirit for Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding and study the Holy Bible for yourselfs. Beware of liars and False Prophets for they are Everywhere and and are out to Decieve…God Bless

Oh, boy… another one for the blocking function.

‘True disciple’ eh? Presumptuous, n’est pas?

I particularly like the way you sign off your little homily with ‘God bless’ when the deity you believe in is clearly not in the benediction business for the vast majority of the human race.

Don’t worry, MissTea, the more you study the scriptures the more the reality of God’s salvific love for ALL His children will shine through, and this kind of ‘religious’ twaddle will be water off a duck’s back to you. For God is love, and love NEVER fails. That’s a scriptural truth you can build your life on :slight_smile: .

It may take a while to completely shake off the fear you feel, MissTea, but with God’s loving help - and the fellowship and support of the many good people on this forum, it will happen. Hey, I’m living proof!

All the best



If you aren’t going to read us closely enough to comment on us accurately, why would you expect anyone to think you’ve read the relevant scriptures enough to comment accurately on them?

For example, I explicitly acknowledged post-mortem punishment from God when I was talking about God being essentially love. Somehow you skipped over all that and decided I was talking about pacifism and denying any punishment from God. Such a display of exegetical competency will not inspire confidence that you know what you’re talking about in other regards. (To which I may add that I am very probably the most militaristic member on the board, including in my references to God’s punitive warfare against sin and against sinners.)

Most people here, myself included, study our Bibles and pray to the Holy Spirit to give us understanding. Some of us even write hundreds of pages of careful study on the verses (and chapters and books) you referenced; certainly the contextual discussion of Rom 5 merely in this thread already is more detailed and accurate than your brief assertion about what one verse does and does not mean.

At any rate, all members and visitors are welcome to slowly and carefully study the details for themselves, and decide what the most accurate interpretation of a scripture is.

I think you and Miss Tea should get along famously well, Mangosteen! :smiley: I’m glad you two are getting to meet one another.


Don’t worry – you’re welcome to disagree with us here so long as you don’t become trollish and so long as you aren’t someone who is currently under a ban under some other name or IP address. I’m not sure, though, that this is the best thread for you to engage in your apologetic for hell. The negative side of the forum is read as much as the positive side, and you will find many many who will engage with any interesting topic you might post there.

That said, people here don’t just make bald statements and demand that one another believe what we say. This is a group for thoughtful discussion and exegesis, so if you have serious scholarship or at least serious reflection to back up what you say, please feel welcome to present it. We expect sound logic and scriptural backing if we’re to take a comment seriously. And by scriptural backing, I don’t mean “proof texting,” but rather the whole witness of scripture, or at the very least the whole witness of the book you’re quoting from. For example, it’s no good quoting from Romans that the potter has the right to make vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor from the same lump of clay, unless you understand the context of Paul’s statement and why you think the metaphor refers to this or to that.

People here also take logical and philosophical arguments seriously. If you think you have something credible to present in that realm, you may certainly do so. If you engage with us in sincerity and good faith, we will treat you with equal or greater courtesy. (I HOPE :wink: ) Only don’t come in here with your AR-15 full-auto and just “spray and pray.” That won’t work. You will need to back up your statements with more than a reference or two, to verses out of context.

TD - how do’st thee neighbour? -

How do you know so much about my conscience or the conscience of others’ here? I have no window into your soul. And in any case - people who believe strongly in hell have often acted without any conscience whatsoever - especially as religious persecutors. Yes - people who have a very strong belief in ECT often have had a heart bypass as well. And in the parable of the sheep and goats it is not belief in everlasting torment that marks people out as sheep rather than goats.

I will pray that you may rest merry, in good conscience.

May the seed Christ Reign

Dick :slight_smile:

To be fair, so far I don’t think TD is Aaron Curry trying to get back on around his ban without repentance (insert irony as appropriate :wink: ). Aside from the generic “God Bless” at the end, the writing style is rather different (and even less polished!), and the ip address doesn’t look similar.

Granted, I fully expect Aaron to try to get back on around the ban without demonstrating to the ad/mods by evidence elsewhere that he has changed his methods and attitudes. But he wants to stay around without being immediately banned again, and he’d know from painful past experience that accusing other people of being Satanic deceivers is a quick way off the board.

However, as soon as I can recall how to do an ip origination trace (maybe [tag]SLJ[/tag] will remember–I’ll tag her to see), I or someone else will check whether the signal is coming from Aaron’s previously established location.

Meanwhile I recommend “Neshuee” study this verse, “I require mercy and not sacrifice”, for as it is written in the Gospels, if the Pharisees had understood that scripture they would not have been in such a rush to accuse the innocent.

Relatedly, Christ admonished His own apostles that those who are not against Him are for Him, therefore they should not hinder those who follow Him without following them; while just as strongly admonishing the Pharisees that those who do not gather but scatter are against Him and not with Him. (There were warnings attached to those admonishments, too, for those who insisted on continuing to do what He was admonishing them about…)

Massive opposition and ridicule of Gods Truth just as expected. As Christ and his Apostles came against much opposition, the Bible declaires that true followers will encounter the same and not to be suprised if the World hates us, for it hated him first. 1 Timothy 4:1-5 would be a good read right now and i am definatly as you can tell, not an ear tickler…and niether was Christ. I certainly did not try to offend anyone imparticular, just feel the Truth must be told. My message is with sincere intent that one wrestling with Truth may find healing in Truth. All i have done is relayed the message of the Gospel. If anyone wants to call me a liar… fine, but it is Christ whom you call a liar, for i am just quoting scripture and declairing the Truth of His Word. Truth…John 1:1-5, John 3:18-21, Hebrews 10:26-31, John 15:5-11, Proverbs 1:20-33, Revelation 3:20-22 and Hebrews 12. Eric…you can call to have me blocked,but you cannot and will not block Truth in Righteousness ( Romans 1:18-19) .And if i am blocked, so be it. As i stated before, dont just believe what i say, Study Gods Word. I am just a messenger of His Truth. I see many scoff at me, but no one has made one point with scripture…NOT ONE. I am not here to argue and will not even do so. I felt moved by the woman who started this thread and am trying to share Gods True Message. She is desiring healing and lies do not heal, but will only hold one in bondage. The proof behind my reply is The Holy Bible which ( every single word ) is inspired from Jesus Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit. And i am not a troll or a returning ex-member. My message might not be polished, but its Biblical Truth and meant in total humbleness as Christ would intend for the soul purpose of soul winning so that all of you might be saved in Christ Jesus. Again…God Bless. and no,really… GOD BLESS.

Hi Dick, I did not say i saw into yours or any one’s conscience. I simply stated that our conscience is Gods Voice speaking to us ( Romans 1:19 ). You know, the fact that we individually and internally understand good between evil , righteousness from unrighteousness. That good feeling when you help someone and that uneasy feeling when you hurt someone. You know.

Hi True -

Yes I know what conscience is. My conscience is clear on this my friend – God is a God of justice but God is love. And my conscience is clear that the God of love is not the God who tortures most of his creatures in eternal hell. And I have knwon people of lax conscience who have been firm believers in eternal hell.

Yes there are plenty of texts in the Bible and in Jesus’ words that speak of punishment. There are also texts that indicate that this punishment is remedial and while age lasting is not everlasting. It’s all down to context and interpretation – and a proper understanding of the Greek of the New Testament.

I’ve certainly seen Universalists bullied without mercy on sites where people hold to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. The mockery you’ve had here is mild in comparison – people are angry with you, but don’t mean you any harm. I remember William Barclay telling of the hate mail he received when he came out as a Universalist – and one letter stated that his daughter (who had recently died) had been killed by God as a punishment for his heresy. You’ll get none of that from us.

I do appreciate that you are moved by compassionate concern in a sense to save us from hell. And I thank you for that – but I do not believe in eternal conscious torment.

All good wishes


Sorry, Jason, I don’t remember how to do that right now. For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure this is not the same person – just another well-meaning Arminian trying to save us from ourselves :sunglasses:

MissTea – I think fear of “Hell” has been used to terrorise and control people for a long time now, and the God who is portrayed by that theology is a blasphemous lie of the devil. God is light and love and everything good – He is Life. And He is the destroyer of Death.

As you grow in relationship with Him, and in knowledge of Him and His ways, I think you will come to understand His love, and come to trust Him more, and He will heal this hurt you have.

I also suffered from fear of Hell – both for myself and others. Now I am convinced that God never gives up on anyone – EVER. Whatever punishment might await any of us is for our good, because all He does is from love. He is Love.

May the Lord bless you with His peace and comfort you in His love,

Dick, I certainly am not here to bully or make anyone angry or scared. To fear God with Love and Respect…Yes. Only Gods Truth will set one free, not ones comfy, self served interpritations of what they want the Bible teach. For the one who is true to ones self when reading the Bible, there is no way around the reallity of a place of enternal punishment for the devil, his demons and all Unrepentive and Unforgiven Lost Sinners ( 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 16:1-12,Luke 12:4-5, Luke 13:1-5, Luke 16:19-31 and 2 Peter 2 ). But here is the good news ( Romans 5:6-11 ). Thats right, he died for all of us sinners, We just need to willingly accept his free gift by Believing Christ died for our sins, Humbly Repenting for our sins and taking up our cross and following Christ and his Teachings so that we may be his True Disciples. God is Loving and Just at the same time. And God does not torture people in hell, People who have rejected our Precious Lord Jesus Christ and have trampled his Life Giving Blood under thier feet in thier own rebellion have sentenced themselves to eternal punishment and been judged rightly by a Righteous and Just God. God wants ALL to come to repentence and be Saved( Acts 17:30-31 ). I have had a lot of people over the years ask " If god does exist, Why does he allow all of this evil,pain and misery to go on?" My reply is simply " The question should not be why does God allow it, Rather why do we sinful people behave the way we do and do these things" We will be held accountable for our actions and the unrepentive sinner will pay the way a Just and Righteous God and Creator deems to do so. Again…God Loves everyone and sent his Son here to be the Great Sacrafice for our sins to prove it. EVERYONE IS A SINNER. The only difference between sinners is some are saved sinners and others are lost sinners.Not wanting to ruffle feathers, I only pray for eyes to be opened…God Loves You

Sonia, I am neither an Arminian or a Calvanist ( though some confused souls think one MUST claim one or the other ) I am simply a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When man gets entangled in his own self interpertations and does not adhere strictly to ALL of Scripture and completely keep it ALL in context, he gets lost and Truth gets faded and molested by man. And I would strongly suggest you read James 3:1 , Stop teaching lies and repent for calling CHRIST a liar. If what you taught were true about no hell or eternal punishment, then Christ Sacrafice was for nothing and people could freely go around sinning as they pleased, with no regard to others or even worse, Christ’s Sacraficial death on the cross. Christ said BEWARE of FALSE TEACHERS and LET NO ONE MISLEAD YOU. MissTea…Just Trust JESUS and let No One Mislead You. I dont know your circumstances, But i do know that JESUS CHRIST Loves You and wants to heal you. Trust JESUS CHRIST and study your Bible. I suggest either the New King James Version or the New American Standard Bible. And always Pray to the HOLY SPIRIT for understanding of Truth. GOD BLESS

Hi, True Disciple (I do believe you are a true disciple and that your heart is truly following Christ. I commend you for it!)

I am confident enough in my relationship with Christ that he will not judge me if I err in my theology. I know he loves me, just as he loves you and everyone else on these forums. Whether hell exists as fire-and-brimstone, outer darkness, or if it doesn’t exist at all, Christ is nonetheless my Savior. I don’t believe anyone on these forums would hesitate in claiming Christ as their savior, as well. (We just have hope that He’s ultimately *everyone’s *Savior.) I believe the Bible is infallible and that Jesus is Lord. If hell does exist, then it is in God’s perfect will and infinite love–even if we struggle to mentally balance the two ideas.

I must note that it is the preaching of many well-meaning individuals that has caused me much heartache as a child and continues to do the same now. I have always had a very susceptible conscience, and even as a devout follower of Christ, hearing about God’s wrath is very upsetting to me–particularly when misconstrued by other well-meaning Christians to accidentally represent God in a way that is not true to His character.

I came to these board to find peace from fire-and-brimstone preaching, as I am trying to reestablish my image of God as an infinitely loving Savior. If you read my background story, you’ve seen that I feel quite scarred by both past experiences with fire-and-brimstone theology and a subsequent false sense of guilt. I came here seeking Christ’s peace, and while I know you meant well in your delivery, I find it imprudent that you would decide to make such an argument on this specific thread.

Thank you for your insight on this issue, truedisciple. May God Bless you–and I will see you in Heaven someday. :slight_smile:


You’re an Arminian. Nothing wrong with that – so am I, to a point. I grant you that it’s impossible to put people into neat little boxes, but your leaning, from all that you say, is clearly toward that theosophy.

Arminians (generally speaking) believe that:

God loves all people.
God desires that all be saved.
All are not saved.
Therefore God does not always get what He wants.
God can do all things that can be done, but saving someone who does not choose it and still maintaining that person’s free will is not a thing that can be done.

Arminius’ problem was that he, like Calvin and Augustine, assumed that no one could be saved following the physical death of the body. Arminius believed that death was the deadline beyond which God either could not or would not work to save His beloved ones. In fact, scripture does not teach this. There is far more evidence in scripture for the possibility and probability of postmortem salvation. (Please see Sherman’s thread on this topic for scriptural evidence: Evidence of Post-Mortem Repentance/Salvation) Arminius also believed that the human soul is immortal in and of itself. Scripture most emphatically does not teach this. That is a Platonic precept completely unprovable from the word of God.

Because the soul is not immortal in and of itself, God can (and presumably would because of His love) destroy that soul that could not be saved. However if God IS able to save the soul of the one who died in his sins, He is obliged by His love to do so.

Since it is inconceivable that any person, given TRUE free will would continue for all eternity to choose that which brings him misery and pain, and since we know that God desires (and correctly translated, WILLS) that all should be saved, all must eventually come to the knowledge of God through Christ Jesus our Lord.

In order to have TRUE free will regarding this matter, a person must have the following:

Complete knowledge and understanding of the truth.
Complete rationality and sanity.
Sufficient time in which to contemplate his choices.

For a person to continue to do that which causes him pain and misery, that person must be irrational or insane. Therefore he is not free. For a person to continue to refuse the good because he believes it to be bad, that person must not have genuine knowledge of the situation; therefore he is not free to make the best choice based on all the information. For a person to be cut off from his choosing before he has had sufficient time to contemplate the right path, his freedom must be cut off short of his decision. Therefore he did not, nor does he now have free choice.

You say that people must be free to choose or else they cannot love. But most of the people in the history and the present time of the world have not been given true freedom to choose. And when they die, their freedom to choose is taken from them for all eternity. Too late.

This is an irrational and untenable position.

Good Evening MissTea, Your first paragraph nailed it. God does love everyone and there is not one of us who is all knowing or allmost all knowing. That is exactly why we need to completely,100% humble ourselfs before God and ask for the gifts of Wisdom,Knowledge and understanding and let ourselfs become teachable by the Holy Spirit. I would ask that you study the book of Proverbs as it is a perfect study guide and starting point in this area . All Christians mentally struggle to understand all of Gods word, Especially when we are infant christians just learning. God will only give us so much at a time so we can grow solid form the ground up in his word. Romans 11:33-36 reminds us how limited we are in our capabilities of understanding Gods ways, but he is very revealing in His Word to those who truly want to understand the Truth. I do not believe in trying to Bible beat Truth into people or cutting people down, but I am fierce with Truth when others try to molest it. Not for my sake MissTea, as Im am already saved, but for yours or anyone else who has questions and is trying to get to the Truth. I mean we are talking about Gods word on this forum, Biblical Truth. Yet no one has presented any Scriptual evidence to show what i say is false and they will not because they cannot. They have retorted only with feelings. God cares about our feelings, but they dont change His Truth or Judgements. I mean, this is New Age Teaching and it is Very Dangerous for the simple fact that it robs Christ of His Glory that is due to him through us by means of a totally repentive, mournful and sorryful state of mind that we should come before him with. I mean he was whipped,beaten beyond recognition, spit on and spiked to a cross to hang for our sinful ways. At one point he felt Gods Wrath all at once for every sin ever commited. Can you imagine!!! And we think we have felt pain and depression. Yet He was without sin. Not to mention the mental anguish he went through for three years as people he was trying to teach and going to brutally die for Scoffed at Him and called him a demon possed liar and lunatic. Lets forget about our pitiful little lives for a moment and realize, we owe him big time and should be forever grateful. Im sorry that you are scared of the doctrine of hell from the Bible, but hell does exist and Jesus whom you say you love and worship declaired it. Honestly though, If you have a personal relationship with Christ as you state you do,Then my dear, You have absolutly nothing to worry about. Your fears are lies from satan and he is the king of all lies. Ask Jesus to heal you from your fears and Rebuke that devil in the name of JESUS CHRIST of NAZARETH and that old devil will flee from you. All true believers have that authority ( James 4:7-10 ) and Praise be to God Almighty. Do not fear, but believe and trust CHRIST JESUS and HE WILL HEAL YOU. May God Richly Bless You and HEAL You My Sister In Christ and Also anyone on this forum who will Submit to our LORD and SAVIOR CHRIST JESUS, THAT BLESSED LAMB OF GOD…

Hi, True Disciple,

I suggest you read a bit about Universal Reconciliation, because the Biblical arguments I’ve seen are quite logical. In fact, I’ve found scores more verses pointing to complete restoration as God’s ultimate plan than verses indicating destruction. I was vary weary of any doctrine getting away from mainstream Christian teachings, but I trust that God’s love and patience is powerful enough to put up with my questions. :slight_smile: Jesus is my Savior. He is my foundation. And so I have nothing else to fear–even a little researching now and then. Whether I find hell is the biblical answer or universal salvation is the answer, it in no way alters God’s complete goodness.

May God bless you on your intellectual and spiritual journey,

Miss Tea


I understand you mean well. So, are you going to respond to my post?

As to coming into His presence with mournful sorrow, What happened to “Enter into His gates with thanksgiving! Enter into His courts with praise! Rejoice and be glad in thy Salvation!”?

If you do respond to my points, please out of kindness to me, use paragraphs? I find it hard to read such solid blocks of text. I don’t mean any criticism to you – but paragraphs would be nice.

Blessings, Cindy

Well said Cindy. Gee it’s good having you around.