The Evangelical Universalist Forum

EUs, Arminis & Calvs -- OH MY!!!

Sorry Cindy, Shermans Evidence is not evidence. That is rambling on about what someone thinks the bible is saying and there were no scriptures given to prove anything anyway. One example: Jonah was in the belly of a fish, not in Sheol. Jesus stated in Matthew 12:40 “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a fish, so will the Son Of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” In Luke 16:19-31, Is this rich man excluded from this “postmortem salvation” because this soul is not going anywhere. I think that the rich man should have heeded Solomons writings in Ecclesiastes 12: 1-8, Especially verses 6-8, Before the silver cord is broken. That would be your last moment here on earth. When you die and leave this world, you die and leave this world…There is no redo or second chance or purgatory and any of that non-sense. So yes, Scripture does teach there is a deadline. All over the place actually, you have to want to see it. And if you want to see a clear example of sinners who just flat out refuse to repent, even under Gods severe wrath in last days, and are then cast into a fiery hell along with satan and the rest of his clan, Study the book of Revealation. It shouldnt take up to much of your time and its really not that scary if you are truely saved. I sure hope you find Truth Cindy and as i told Sonia, Be Very Careful what you teach ( James 3:1 ). You people really need to understand that this is not about you or your wanting to be some sort of great leader of some new age fairytale. Its all about Jesus Christ and His Truth. The cost of others possibly losing salvation by being led astray ( also Biblical ) could be on your Judgement, and i promise you that you do not want that.This is not a game and false teachers WILL BE PUNISHED.

Aw, thanks Allen. :blush: :slight_smile:

And TD – The silver cord is not the “proof” you seek. Friend, you are not making your point. Is that the only verse you have? I just read that one day before yesterday – but Solomon all through Ecclesiastes does not even have the expectation of any sort of after life – for anyone. Many OT scholars don’t see a belief in an after life in the Old Testament at all until after the Babylonian exile. I don’t see one either. It doesn’t mean the OT isn’t scripture, but if you want to make an argument from the silver cord, it would work better for annihilation than for eternal conscious torment (ECT).

Sherman’s argument regarding Jonah is a good one. Clearly you didn’t read far enough to see it, but here is part of it:

Jason later comments:

(Which I found fascinating.) There’s a lot of excellent discussion in this thread. You should read and consider unless you’re afraid you might be led astray. If you’re unsure of your theology I understand, but I’m always seeking the truth from God whether that agrees with my tradition or not.

So Jesus says, “Just as Jonah, so the Son of Man.” Does that mean Jesus didn’t really die, or that Jonah really did die?

At any rate, you still have not addressed my argument, but only one side, side point – and that not satisfactorily. What about the rest? And what about my request for paragraphs? That’s not so much to ask, is it? (No disrespect intended, but a paragraph is where you separate one unit of thought from another by double-spacing in-between the lines:

Like this.) It makes things a lot less painful to read.

Awaiting your reply to my points. Thanks!

Hey all, I haven’t posted in awhile but have have been lurking for the last month or so. Now that an arminian has posted-don’t worry, TD-I’d never admit to being one either-I figured I’d chip in as the Calvinist so there’d be at least one person here who gets it right :sunglasses:
Regarding Miss Tea and the OP, it’s not as if the fear of God and His wrath is something that is just conjured up. It’s taught plainly throughout the Scriptures. Even Jesus said, "Do not fear those who can destroy the body, but after that can do no more. No, but rather fear Him who can destroy *both body and soul *in hell.
The dispute, as I’m sure you’ve realised by now, pertains to the duration.
FWIW, the Covenental understanding of the Atonement is that Jesus lived and died for His people. His perfect, active righteousness is imputed to His people, while our sin and its consequence-death, YHWH’s wrath-was imputed to Christ on the cross, passive righteousness. For those of us in Christ-the Elect-, there now remains no condemnation of punishment.
This view is referred to as Penal Substition, and is for the most part outright rejected and condemned by the vast majority on this site, if my memory serves. There may be some type of variation and/or bits and pieces, but like I said, it’s rejected in the form that I mentioned above. The prevelant view here is purgatory. All people must spend some time in the Lake of Fire, which is not regarded as a horrifying, eternal fate-but rather the last stop before glorification. Jason can clarify that a bit more, but I’m pretty sure I’m in the ball park.
So, under this view you DO have to look forward to the fire of God Himself. The righteousness of Christ IS NOT yours. However, do not view God as Hitler cranking up the heat in the ovens out of pure sadism, but rather think of the experience as a loving, expert goldsmith cranking up the heat as necessary to burn the dross out of the gold while you-the gold-is tormented…which is actually the word used in ancient times to describe the metal as it was being purified. Hope that helps.

Matt (jaxxen)**

Hey Matt! Good to hear from you. Where have you been all my life already?! Did you get married yet?

I see you still need to learn a few theology lessons, but that’s okay, I’m patient. :smiley:



Greetings o great disciple of truth!

I feel privileged, humbled even, that you have chosen to bless us wayward heretics with your insights. I think it’s great the way you dismiss the evidence of those who - stupidly, obviously - would hold the ridiculous belief that God just might actually be God enough to love and save all His children, dazzling us with your superior scriptural exegesis and scholarly pronouncements.

Gosh, it’s a shame Luther isn’t still alive to see how well his sort of rigorous, scripture-based arguments are being handled by today’s true disciples like yourself.

How wonderful it must be to bask in the assurance that you are already saved while countless millions of us ignorant sinners have bought ourselves a one-way ticket to the big barbecue down below. And so selfless of you to take time out of your blessed existence with the saints to intercede for us. The tears are literally rolling down my cheeks, so moved am I by your generosity of spirit.

They say the truth hurts, and how right they are!

Here was the post where I misunderstood Jaxxen and wrongly insulted his concept of God. I’d like to delete it.

The punishment will be for your own good, so take heart, TB.

Easu, my brother! How are you? Besides irrascible, I mean :smiley:
It’s good to be back after a hiatus. Yes, I did get married! It’s been about 8 mos now. How are things with you and yours? How is your father’s health? What about Gracie? Hope all is well with you-seared conscience notwithstanding :laughing:
And yes, I still need to learn a few theology lessons. Right now it’s a toss-up between Jonathan Edwards and George MacDonald…whick one would you recommend?


Well…Why am I not suprised? ( Proverbs 12:1 / Matthew 13:10-17 ) To the Prideful wise and learned, Gods Eternal Wrath Will Fall Upon The UNGODLY and UNRIGHTEOUSE And All UNREPENTIVE LIARS, and your denial of TRUTH wont change that. “LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar”…

And so it begins…
Um, no offence Sobornost, but you’re saying my reply / analogy is confused? I felt that it was forthright and clear. Of course it has eschatological implications, the OP was speaking of her fear of hell. I stated that the PSA view of atonement removes this fear and that the predominant purgatorial view on this site does not. The fire of YHWH will be applied to all, but not to lose heart as sadism is not involved. I deferred to Jason to clarify this view. What of the above is not true?
You first go on to elaborate as to the refining treatment-going so far as to specify the temperature. After that, strawmen and obfuscation, closing with creating God in the image of tyrants and a silly gospel. I’ve read a lot of your posts and believe that you’re better than this. Perhaps my reply to Miss Tea caught you off guard, or maybe your hackles were raised to begin with and my post was the first available target.


Hello TD, my name is Matt Foreman. Listen, I appreciate your passion for the truth of Scripture and would agree with you on some major points re the fate of the wicked-would vehemntly disagree with you on your arminian points-but my counsel to you right now, fwiw, is to maybe tone down just a tad. To kick in the door and pronounce anathemas will probably not be as profitable as you’d like, even if you are acting in good conscience before God and the anathemas are deserved.
Be wise as a serpent yet gentle as a dove type of thing.
I think it’d actually be kind of fun to have 3 competing view points going simultaneously. All 3 views: Reformed, Arminian and UR do have some overlap. Anyway, that’s all for now.


Congratulations on your marriage, Matt! And I’ve missed you too. And yes it would be fun but I’m not sure it should be done here on Miss Tea’s thread. Maybe we could move this to another topic – what do you think, Miss Tea?

That’s fine, TD. The catagorization was simply because you seemed to express a belief in salvation by free will decision. When it comes down to it, most of us are simply followers of Christ – just with varying ideas about what God’s plans and purposes are.


Thank you, Cindy! And I totally agree that Miss Tea’s thread should not be hi-jacked. I feel, as I’m sure we all do, that the topic is a worthy one and should be fleashed out a bit more. Frankly, I’m surprised that it hasn’t gotten more replies than it has, but perhaps that will change. Let me know if it gets moved and I’d be happy to join in, time permitting :wink:


no disrespect to Matt, who is at least civil! but plenty to the so called “true disciple”, who doesn’t deserve any more respect and consideration than he/she extends.


Miss Tea…i’d ignore all posts on this thread that are not EU. this is not the place for “debate”. there is a whole forum set aside for that. all of the pro-ECT arguments will have been heard ad nauseum by Miss Tea, and she was terrified of them and dissatisfied by them. all rehashing them now will produce is doubt and more pain and fear. all of which are not helpful, and definitely not fruits of true doctrine.
i just hope i’m in time to head off any nasty relapses into unsatisfying dogma which could potentially rob Miss Tea and other suffering seekers of the faith they really want to hold on to.
i’m sure she’s an adult capable of holding her own despite the obvious usual suspect arguments about “plain reading” (of which translation?!?) and “clear meanings” (by your own rules, scripture interprets scripture…which destroys all notions of eternal punishment, and severely hampers penal substitionary atonement as an over-riding doctrine, due to the vast numbers of scriptures that teach contrary views of those doctrines)

as to the elect, what human in good conscience (though we are wicked! ha! we still know how to recognise good and bad gifts!) can believe that eternal torment of the non-elect is a good thing? how can i take comfort in my own election if my family members, my friends, etc will be tormented forever? where in scripture do i take this notion of changing my God-ordained love for even my enemies into hatred that lasts forever? and worse: mocking, rejoicing hatred? am i not meant to be my Father’s child and love my enemies and hold nothing against them?)
i must stop ranting now, but this complete crap really gets my goat

Matt - I get grumpy from time to time; and yes I am concerned about Miss Tea. Congratulations on your wedding. :slight_smile:

–your friendly neighbourhood corpse–
i love my blood pythons! … Ahhh Yes, Praise Jesus. And nice meaningless rant as well, corpselight ? AGAIN…No Sripture to back anything up. I am done throwing pearls before swine. And yes Miss Tea, please ingnore all posts that are not EU. Yes walk away, no… run as fast as you can. Nothing to see here folks, just Gods Truth. Yes Miss Tea, Let that slimmy serpent whisper lies into your ears and just ignore Gods loving Conviction that is speaking to your heart. It’ll all be ok in the end. Let the devils fairydust fly and the fairytails ease your mind. Thats it Miss Tea, listen to the serpent as eve did and taste the fruit of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Its good for you.

Um…does this mean were not all going discuss things? :confused:

Btw, this’ll be my last post on this thread unless Miss Tea approves of Cindy’s earlier suggestion.


nicely arrogant parting shot, “mate”.
an alternative place to discuss these issues was politely pointed out to you, rather than fear-mongering on a very personal thread.
i love the “swine” reference, you clearly do not have a swollen head at all. God had some great stuff to say about arrogance in the Bible, check out some of Solomon’s inspired statements against your ilk. hope you have a nice trip!

i apologise, i shouldn’t have fed the troll. but i had to, for comedic purposes. i’m sure you all understand!