The Evangelical Universalist Forum

EUs, Arminis & Calvs -- OH MY!!!

Hi True -

Yes I know what conscience is. My conscience is clear on this my friend – God is a God of justice but God is love. And my conscience is clear that the God of love is not the God who tortures most of his creatures in eternal hell. And I have knwon people of lax conscience who have been firm believers in eternal hell.

Yes there are plenty of texts in the Bible and in Jesus’ words that speak of punishment. There are also texts that indicate that this punishment is remedial and while age lasting is not everlasting. It’s all down to context and interpretation – and a proper understanding of the Greek of the New Testament.

I’ve certainly seen Universalists bullied without mercy on sites where people hold to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. The mockery you’ve had here is mild in comparison – people are angry with you, but don’t mean you any harm. I remember William Barclay telling of the hate mail he received when he came out as a Universalist – and one letter stated that his daughter (who had recently died) had been killed by God as a punishment for his heresy. You’ll get none of that from us.

I do appreciate that you are moved by compassionate concern in a sense to save us from hell. And I thank you for that – but I do not believe in eternal conscious torment.

All good wishes


Sorry, Jason, I don’t remember how to do that right now. For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure this is not the same person – just another well-meaning Arminian trying to save us from ourselves :sunglasses:

MissTea – I think fear of “Hell” has been used to terrorise and control people for a long time now, and the God who is portrayed by that theology is a blasphemous lie of the devil. God is light and love and everything good – He is Life. And He is the destroyer of Death.

As you grow in relationship with Him, and in knowledge of Him and His ways, I think you will come to understand His love, and come to trust Him more, and He will heal this hurt you have.

I also suffered from fear of Hell – both for myself and others. Now I am convinced that God never gives up on anyone – EVER. Whatever punishment might await any of us is for our good, because all He does is from love. He is Love.

May the Lord bless you with His peace and comfort you in His love,

Dick, I certainly am not here to bully or make anyone angry or scared. To fear God with Love and Respect…Yes. Only Gods Truth will set one free, not ones comfy, self served interpritations of what they want the Bible teach. For the one who is true to ones self when reading the Bible, there is no way around the reallity of a place of enternal punishment for the devil, his demons and all Unrepentive and Unforgiven Lost Sinners ( 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Revelation 16:1-12,Luke 12:4-5, Luke 13:1-5, Luke 16:19-31 and 2 Peter 2 ). But here is the good news ( Romans 5:6-11 ). Thats right, he died for all of us sinners, We just need to willingly accept his free gift by Believing Christ died for our sins, Humbly Repenting for our sins and taking up our cross and following Christ and his Teachings so that we may be his True Disciples. God is Loving and Just at the same time. And God does not torture people in hell, People who have rejected our Precious Lord Jesus Christ and have trampled his Life Giving Blood under thier feet in thier own rebellion have sentenced themselves to eternal punishment and been judged rightly by a Righteous and Just God. God wants ALL to come to repentence and be Saved( Acts 17:30-31 ). I have had a lot of people over the years ask " If god does exist, Why does he allow all of this evil,pain and misery to go on?" My reply is simply " The question should not be why does God allow it, Rather why do we sinful people behave the way we do and do these things" We will be held accountable for our actions and the unrepentive sinner will pay the way a Just and Righteous God and Creator deems to do so. Again…God Loves everyone and sent his Son here to be the Great Sacrafice for our sins to prove it. EVERYONE IS A SINNER. The only difference between sinners is some are saved sinners and others are lost sinners.Not wanting to ruffle feathers, I only pray for eyes to be opened…God Loves You

Sonia, I am neither an Arminian or a Calvanist ( though some confused souls think one MUST claim one or the other ) I am simply a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When man gets entangled in his own self interpertations and does not adhere strictly to ALL of Scripture and completely keep it ALL in context, he gets lost and Truth gets faded and molested by man. And I would strongly suggest you read James 3:1 , Stop teaching lies and repent for calling CHRIST a liar. If what you taught were true about no hell or eternal punishment, then Christ Sacrafice was for nothing and people could freely go around sinning as they pleased, with no regard to others or even worse, Christ’s Sacraficial death on the cross. Christ said BEWARE of FALSE TEACHERS and LET NO ONE MISLEAD YOU. MissTea…Just Trust JESUS and let No One Mislead You. I dont know your circumstances, But i do know that JESUS CHRIST Loves You and wants to heal you. Trust JESUS CHRIST and study your Bible. I suggest either the New King James Version or the New American Standard Bible. And always Pray to the HOLY SPIRIT for understanding of Truth. GOD BLESS

Hi, True Disciple (I do believe you are a true disciple and that your heart is truly following Christ. I commend you for it!)

I am confident enough in my relationship with Christ that he will not judge me if I err in my theology. I know he loves me, just as he loves you and everyone else on these forums. Whether hell exists as fire-and-brimstone, outer darkness, or if it doesn’t exist at all, Christ is nonetheless my Savior. I don’t believe anyone on these forums would hesitate in claiming Christ as their savior, as well. (We just have hope that He’s ultimately *everyone’s *Savior.) I believe the Bible is infallible and that Jesus is Lord. If hell does exist, then it is in God’s perfect will and infinite love–even if we struggle to mentally balance the two ideas.

I must note that it is the preaching of many well-meaning individuals that has caused me much heartache as a child and continues to do the same now. I have always had a very susceptible conscience, and even as a devout follower of Christ, hearing about God’s wrath is very upsetting to me–particularly when misconstrued by other well-meaning Christians to accidentally represent God in a way that is not true to His character.

I came to these board to find peace from fire-and-brimstone preaching, as I am trying to reestablish my image of God as an infinitely loving Savior. If you read my background story, you’ve seen that I feel quite scarred by both past experiences with fire-and-brimstone theology and a subsequent false sense of guilt. I came here seeking Christ’s peace, and while I know you meant well in your delivery, I find it imprudent that you would decide to make such an argument on this specific thread.

Thank you for your insight on this issue, truedisciple. May God Bless you–and I will see you in Heaven someday. :slight_smile:


You’re an Arminian. Nothing wrong with that – so am I, to a point. I grant you that it’s impossible to put people into neat little boxes, but your leaning, from all that you say, is clearly toward that theosophy.

Arminians (generally speaking) believe that:

God loves all people.
God desires that all be saved.
All are not saved.
Therefore God does not always get what He wants.
God can do all things that can be done, but saving someone who does not choose it and still maintaining that person’s free will is not a thing that can be done.

Arminius’ problem was that he, like Calvin and Augustine, assumed that no one could be saved following the physical death of the body. Arminius believed that death was the deadline beyond which God either could not or would not work to save His beloved ones. In fact, scripture does not teach this. There is far more evidence in scripture for the possibility and probability of postmortem salvation. (Please see Sherman’s thread on this topic for scriptural evidence: Evidence of Post-Mortem Repentance/Salvation) Arminius also believed that the human soul is immortal in and of itself. Scripture most emphatically does not teach this. That is a Platonic precept completely unprovable from the word of God.

Because the soul is not immortal in and of itself, God can (and presumably would because of His love) destroy that soul that could not be saved. However if God IS able to save the soul of the one who died in his sins, He is obliged by His love to do so.

Since it is inconceivable that any person, given TRUE free will would continue for all eternity to choose that which brings him misery and pain, and since we know that God desires (and correctly translated, WILLS) that all should be saved, all must eventually come to the knowledge of God through Christ Jesus our Lord.

In order to have TRUE free will regarding this matter, a person must have the following:

Complete knowledge and understanding of the truth.
Complete rationality and sanity.
Sufficient time in which to contemplate his choices.

For a person to continue to do that which causes him pain and misery, that person must be irrational or insane. Therefore he is not free. For a person to continue to refuse the good because he believes it to be bad, that person must not have genuine knowledge of the situation; therefore he is not free to make the best choice based on all the information. For a person to be cut off from his choosing before he has had sufficient time to contemplate the right path, his freedom must be cut off short of his decision. Therefore he did not, nor does he now have free choice.

You say that people must be free to choose or else they cannot love. But most of the people in the history and the present time of the world have not been given true freedom to choose. And when they die, their freedom to choose is taken from them for all eternity. Too late.

This is an irrational and untenable position.

Good Evening MissTea, Your first paragraph nailed it. God does love everyone and there is not one of us who is all knowing or allmost all knowing. That is exactly why we need to completely,100% humble ourselfs before God and ask for the gifts of Wisdom,Knowledge and understanding and let ourselfs become teachable by the Holy Spirit. I would ask that you study the book of Proverbs as it is a perfect study guide and starting point in this area . All Christians mentally struggle to understand all of Gods word, Especially when we are infant christians just learning. God will only give us so much at a time so we can grow solid form the ground up in his word. Romans 11:33-36 reminds us how limited we are in our capabilities of understanding Gods ways, but he is very revealing in His Word to those who truly want to understand the Truth. I do not believe in trying to Bible beat Truth into people or cutting people down, but I am fierce with Truth when others try to molest it. Not for my sake MissTea, as Im am already saved, but for yours or anyone else who has questions and is trying to get to the Truth. I mean we are talking about Gods word on this forum, Biblical Truth. Yet no one has presented any Scriptual evidence to show what i say is false and they will not because they cannot. They have retorted only with feelings. God cares about our feelings, but they dont change His Truth or Judgements. I mean, this is New Age Teaching and it is Very Dangerous for the simple fact that it robs Christ of His Glory that is due to him through us by means of a totally repentive, mournful and sorryful state of mind that we should come before him with. I mean he was whipped,beaten beyond recognition, spit on and spiked to a cross to hang for our sinful ways. At one point he felt Gods Wrath all at once for every sin ever commited. Can you imagine!!! And we think we have felt pain and depression. Yet He was without sin. Not to mention the mental anguish he went through for three years as people he was trying to teach and going to brutally die for Scoffed at Him and called him a demon possed liar and lunatic. Lets forget about our pitiful little lives for a moment and realize, we owe him big time and should be forever grateful. Im sorry that you are scared of the doctrine of hell from the Bible, but hell does exist and Jesus whom you say you love and worship declaired it. Honestly though, If you have a personal relationship with Christ as you state you do,Then my dear, You have absolutly nothing to worry about. Your fears are lies from satan and he is the king of all lies. Ask Jesus to heal you from your fears and Rebuke that devil in the name of JESUS CHRIST of NAZARETH and that old devil will flee from you. All true believers have that authority ( James 4:7-10 ) and Praise be to God Almighty. Do not fear, but believe and trust CHRIST JESUS and HE WILL HEAL YOU. May God Richly Bless You and HEAL You My Sister In Christ and Also anyone on this forum who will Submit to our LORD and SAVIOR CHRIST JESUS, THAT BLESSED LAMB OF GOD…

Hi, True Disciple,

I suggest you read a bit about Universal Reconciliation, because the Biblical arguments I’ve seen are quite logical. In fact, I’ve found scores more verses pointing to complete restoration as God’s ultimate plan than verses indicating destruction. I was vary weary of any doctrine getting away from mainstream Christian teachings, but I trust that God’s love and patience is powerful enough to put up with my questions. :slight_smile: Jesus is my Savior. He is my foundation. And so I have nothing else to fear–even a little researching now and then. Whether I find hell is the biblical answer or universal salvation is the answer, it in no way alters God’s complete goodness.

May God bless you on your intellectual and spiritual journey,

Miss Tea


I understand you mean well. So, are you going to respond to my post?

As to coming into His presence with mournful sorrow, What happened to “Enter into His gates with thanksgiving! Enter into His courts with praise! Rejoice and be glad in thy Salvation!”?

If you do respond to my points, please out of kindness to me, use paragraphs? I find it hard to read such solid blocks of text. I don’t mean any criticism to you – but paragraphs would be nice.

Blessings, Cindy

Well said Cindy. Gee it’s good having you around.

Sorry Cindy, Shermans Evidence is not evidence. That is rambling on about what someone thinks the bible is saying and there were no scriptures given to prove anything anyway. One example: Jonah was in the belly of a fish, not in Sheol. Jesus stated in Matthew 12:40 “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a fish, so will the Son Of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” In Luke 16:19-31, Is this rich man excluded from this “postmortem salvation” because this soul is not going anywhere. I think that the rich man should have heeded Solomons writings in Ecclesiastes 12: 1-8, Especially verses 6-8, Before the silver cord is broken. That would be your last moment here on earth. When you die and leave this world, you die and leave this world…There is no redo or second chance or purgatory and any of that non-sense. So yes, Scripture does teach there is a deadline. All over the place actually, you have to want to see it. And if you want to see a clear example of sinners who just flat out refuse to repent, even under Gods severe wrath in last days, and are then cast into a fiery hell along with satan and the rest of his clan, Study the book of Revealation. It shouldnt take up to much of your time and its really not that scary if you are truely saved. I sure hope you find Truth Cindy and as i told Sonia, Be Very Careful what you teach ( James 3:1 ). You people really need to understand that this is not about you or your wanting to be some sort of great leader of some new age fairytale. Its all about Jesus Christ and His Truth. The cost of others possibly losing salvation by being led astray ( also Biblical ) could be on your Judgement, and i promise you that you do not want that.This is not a game and false teachers WILL BE PUNISHED.

Aw, thanks Allen. :blush: :slight_smile:

And TD – The silver cord is not the “proof” you seek. Friend, you are not making your point. Is that the only verse you have? I just read that one day before yesterday – but Solomon all through Ecclesiastes does not even have the expectation of any sort of after life – for anyone. Many OT scholars don’t see a belief in an after life in the Old Testament at all until after the Babylonian exile. I don’t see one either. It doesn’t mean the OT isn’t scripture, but if you want to make an argument from the silver cord, it would work better for annihilation than for eternal conscious torment (ECT).

Sherman’s argument regarding Jonah is a good one. Clearly you didn’t read far enough to see it, but here is part of it:

Jason later comments:

(Which I found fascinating.) There’s a lot of excellent discussion in this thread. You should read and consider unless you’re afraid you might be led astray. If you’re unsure of your theology I understand, but I’m always seeking the truth from God whether that agrees with my tradition or not.

So Jesus says, “Just as Jonah, so the Son of Man.” Does that mean Jesus didn’t really die, or that Jonah really did die?

At any rate, you still have not addressed my argument, but only one side, side point – and that not satisfactorily. What about the rest? And what about my request for paragraphs? That’s not so much to ask, is it? (No disrespect intended, but a paragraph is where you separate one unit of thought from another by double-spacing in-between the lines:

Like this.) It makes things a lot less painful to read.

Awaiting your reply to my points. Thanks!

Hey all, I haven’t posted in awhile but have have been lurking for the last month or so. Now that an arminian has posted-don’t worry, TD-I’d never admit to being one either-I figured I’d chip in as the Calvinist so there’d be at least one person here who gets it right :sunglasses:
Regarding Miss Tea and the OP, it’s not as if the fear of God and His wrath is something that is just conjured up. It’s taught plainly throughout the Scriptures. Even Jesus said, "Do not fear those who can destroy the body, but after that can do no more. No, but rather fear Him who can destroy *both body and soul *in hell.
The dispute, as I’m sure you’ve realised by now, pertains to the duration.
FWIW, the Covenental understanding of the Atonement is that Jesus lived and died for His people. His perfect, active righteousness is imputed to His people, while our sin and its consequence-death, YHWH’s wrath-was imputed to Christ on the cross, passive righteousness. For those of us in Christ-the Elect-, there now remains no condemnation of punishment.
This view is referred to as Penal Substition, and is for the most part outright rejected and condemned by the vast majority on this site, if my memory serves. There may be some type of variation and/or bits and pieces, but like I said, it’s rejected in the form that I mentioned above. The prevelant view here is purgatory. All people must spend some time in the Lake of Fire, which is not regarded as a horrifying, eternal fate-but rather the last stop before glorification. Jason can clarify that a bit more, but I’m pretty sure I’m in the ball park.
So, under this view you DO have to look forward to the fire of God Himself. The righteousness of Christ IS NOT yours. However, do not view God as Hitler cranking up the heat in the ovens out of pure sadism, but rather think of the experience as a loving, expert goldsmith cranking up the heat as necessary to burn the dross out of the gold while you-the gold-is tormented…which is actually the word used in ancient times to describe the metal as it was being purified. Hope that helps.

Matt (jaxxen)**

Hey Matt! Good to hear from you. Where have you been all my life already?! Did you get married yet?

I see you still need to learn a few theology lessons, but that’s okay, I’m patient. :smiley:



Greetings o great disciple of truth!

I feel privileged, humbled even, that you have chosen to bless us wayward heretics with your insights. I think it’s great the way you dismiss the evidence of those who - stupidly, obviously - would hold the ridiculous belief that God just might actually be God enough to love and save all His children, dazzling us with your superior scriptural exegesis and scholarly pronouncements.

Gosh, it’s a shame Luther isn’t still alive to see how well his sort of rigorous, scripture-based arguments are being handled by today’s true disciples like yourself.

How wonderful it must be to bask in the assurance that you are already saved while countless millions of us ignorant sinners have bought ourselves a one-way ticket to the big barbecue down below. And so selfless of you to take time out of your blessed existence with the saints to intercede for us. The tears are literally rolling down my cheeks, so moved am I by your generosity of spirit.

They say the truth hurts, and how right they are!

Here was the post where I misunderstood Jaxxen and wrongly insulted his concept of God. I’d like to delete it.

The punishment will be for your own good, so take heart, TB.

Easu, my brother! How are you? Besides irrascible, I mean :smiley:
It’s good to be back after a hiatus. Yes, I did get married! It’s been about 8 mos now. How are things with you and yours? How is your father’s health? What about Gracie? Hope all is well with you-seared conscience notwithstanding :laughing:
And yes, I still need to learn a few theology lessons. Right now it’s a toss-up between Jonathan Edwards and George MacDonald…whick one would you recommend?


Well…Why am I not suprised? ( Proverbs 12:1 / Matthew 13:10-17 ) To the Prideful wise and learned, Gods Eternal Wrath Will Fall Upon The UNGODLY and UNRIGHTEOUSE And All UNREPENTIVE LIARS, and your denial of TRUTH wont change that. “LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar”…

And so it begins…
Um, no offence Sobornost, but you’re saying my reply / analogy is confused? I felt that it was forthright and clear. Of course it has eschatological implications, the OP was speaking of her fear of hell. I stated that the PSA view of atonement removes this fear and that the predominant purgatorial view on this site does not. The fire of YHWH will be applied to all, but not to lose heart as sadism is not involved. I deferred to Jason to clarify this view. What of the above is not true?
You first go on to elaborate as to the refining treatment-going so far as to specify the temperature. After that, strawmen and obfuscation, closing with creating God in the image of tyrants and a silly gospel. I’ve read a lot of your posts and believe that you’re better than this. Perhaps my reply to Miss Tea caught you off guard, or maybe your hackles were raised to begin with and my post was the first available target.