Hi Cindy
Honestly, don’t worry, I was only ribbing you. A lot of my drivel is probably best lost anyway 
All the best
Johnny
Hi Matt
You issue a challenge to those of us who have our differences with Calvinism - and I repeat, with Calvinism, the theology - not with you personally. You know I like *you * .
I’d go further than my diplomatic Professor friend. I’d say the fictitious God of Calvinism is infinitely worse than all the sick tyrants of history, for as you say yourself, they are reprobate humans with no choice but to act badly. They can’t help being evil. (Neither can any of the rest of us under Calvinist theology, but that’s by the by.) Calvin’s God on the other hand deliberately *chooses *to torture his creatures when he could just have well have chosen to love them. The only correct, moral reaction to this fictional monster is to thumb your nose in disgust at him.
"Based upon what you’ve said about God, far from disproving Calvinism, you have affirmed it, " you say. I say piffle and balderdash. You put up an evil shibboleth of a God for decent moral people to throw stones at then blame them when they do! Well what the hell are we *supposed *to do, fall down and worship this so-called deity who makes Moloch look like the Tooth Fairy? Not bloody likely! What you’ve got to understand Matt is that your arguments are circular and self-referential. If Calvinism were 100% true then your arguments might be valid. But seeing as how it isn’t your arguments about total depravity are invalid also.
Thanks for your concern, Matt, but I no more need warning off calling Calvin’s God evil than I do Mephistopheles himself (not that I believe in Old Nick, but there you go). By ascribing the toxic theology of Calvinism to the true God of love revealed in Jesus you are committing a far greater blasphemy than any anti-Calvinist ever could. What is most worrying about this is that you don’t seem worried about it. And that, Matt, is one reason why so many people loathe Calvinism with a passion.
All the best
Johnny
Love this Allan. I question. I question a LOT. It’s not to be critical, it’s just because I want something real with God. I do wonder what He thinks about it though…I can see it both ways…He knows the truth of my heart for Him or I’m just a stiff-necked and rebellious child. I suppose He’d rather me just be honest…Wouldn’t He? And that is the crux of the matter. Just who IS this God we serve? Does He really want a deep, love relationship with us? Or, does He just want our service because He’s God and He says so? I would not fault Him if it were the latter. He’s God, He CAN do what He wants. I just don’t know if I can give Him my whole heart. And that sucks, because I really want to. 
Sass
Yes. When a god-candidate turns out to be a dud, it’s time to set off in the dark to find a better one. Many people hang on to bad gods simply because they’re afraid of the dark. The devil you know is better than the devil you don’t etc.
Yay for you and your rib on nuptials, Matt!
Wish I had any news that good for myself to report this Valentine’s Day week… (And Day, as it happens to be when I’m catching up on the thread.) Ah, well. As ever, maybe next year.
I’m thinking of picking up and porting your observation/challenge about purgatory and fear, over to its own dedicated thread here in “Discussion Negative”, because that’s a particular topic we haven’t chewed over much on the forum yet compared to some other topics, and I think it’s worthy of some chewing over. I’ll post a threadlink when I get around to it.
I must say that I am stunned by the tone of TD towards the Universalists of this forum site. Each believer must be free to read, study and interpret Scripture according to their conscience. There are a plethora of passages in the Bible that can be interpreted in multiple ways and sometimes we must give our best educated guess.
I am not a universalist at present, but I do defend the right for any Universalist to defend his/her views without fear of ridicule or statements questioning their faith. Just because someone interprets a passage differently from me does not mean he/she does not have a high view of Scripture or lacks saving faith. To insist all believers must interpret Scripture exactly as I do is to elevate my own interpretation as the benchmark for true faith. My understanding of God is what saves rather than God Himself.
TD, I think you would have much greater success if you sought out a dialogue rather than to simply tell everyone why they are wrong. You never know, you might just learn something.
Hello Darren, Everyone has the right to interpret the bible the way they wish. Of course, if the bible is truly Gods Word and is intended to direct us to Christ Jesus and His Truth in order to obtain Eternal Life…We had better stop interpreting and start understanding. Its very simple if one wants to GRADUATE to understanding. You simply must call on the Lord Jesus Christ, Truly Repent for your sins and Believe on His Name, His Word,and His Sacrifice for your sins. Then you shall be saved. That’s why Gods true children are called BELIEVERS. Or you can be like Alan and just keep selfishly sifting through man made religions until you find the false god that meets your personal needs and comfort zone ( VERY DANGEROUS IN THE END, NOT RECOMMENDED). And I was not judging these folks and telling them where they were wrong…I used GODS WORD to show them where they are wrong and in danger of HELL If they fail to accept GODS TRUTH. The HOLY BIBLE has no inaccuracies and the WORD will be the judge of man on judgement day.
Well, if we’re going to keep having this kind of stuff posted here, I think I’ll go and join Johnny. There’s nothing I need to hear from a radical fundamentalist.
Hi Eric and others,
“true disciple” has been asked to refrain from personal attacks, so hopefully he’ll improve in that respect. We try to be patient with people – in the spirit of universalism 
– but the moderation team will be taking action if he continues to disregard the rules of this forum.
Sonia
Are you a Christian because you believe Christ is more worthy of your love than Allah, Krishna or Kali, or is it down to an accident of birth? Find me a God even more worthy than Christ, and I will leave Christ behind. Is that so shocking? Would you leave *your *God behind when shown a better one? Isn’t that what you ask non-Christians to do all the time? You are unwilling to do likewise? How can you grow if you never leave the old behind, or are you “one who is perfect in knowledge”?
I do choose a God who suits my personal need. I need God to be good. No doubt my ideas of good are tarnished, but that’s ok. My good God will make things clear in his own time. (Your nasty God will boil me in oil.)
Would it be unkind to ask if you also choose a God to suit your personal need for violence and revenge?
Well, I’d say it’s already time to take action, seeing how TD has again accused Allan of following a false God.
I was reading in another thread here last night about ‘false teachers’ and confronting them. Lots of good points were made there, but it still remains that we all believe false teachers need to be confronted strenuously. TD and Jaxxen believe we Universalists of any stripe are false teachers, and we believe the same of them. The chasm between UR and ECT is not a peripheral difference of doctrine to most people, as would be the difference of instrumental v. a capella music or one cup/individual cups from the Restorationist tradition to which I adhere; it’s a very fundamental thing. Since teaching falsehood = lying, how can any of us flawed and fallible humans be expected to have fruitful and non-confrontational discussions with someone whom we feel is lying in the discussion?
And since Calvinists believe in the the total depravity of humans, it stands that their concept of God is the one that is totally depraved. Jaxxen states that the Calvinist truth comes from God’s work in forcing them to see the ‘real truth’ as opposed to what we see as simple seekers. Why should any of us give any recognition at all to someone who clearly believes that he is better than us, since he has been chosen by God to receive ‘real truth’? The Calvinist position is condescending by its very nature, yet we are supposed to just accept that and engage them non-confrontationally. Bollocks, as my mate Johnny might say. Calvinist theology is misanthropic by definition, so why would I, or anyone else, want to hear or contemplate anything one of them has to say?
Jaxxen has shown himself to be a pretty nice guy, from what I’ve seen, but I still don’t care one whit about what he believes in matters of theology.
Yet the rest of us are just supposed to accept the word of a Calvinist that they have been truly regenerated and have something worth hearing? You can quote scripture all day, but this statement throws all of your arguments into the realm of opinion.
Q: How can a Calvinist objectively prove that they are regenerated and no longer enslaved to sin and the wicked one?
A: They can’t, but they still want to decry Universalists as being Satanic, when it is equally likely that they are the Satanic ones.
Being a homosexual, I’m sure my opinion is not that credible here, however, I’d fall in line with what Eric and Allan S. have already said. I realize both Eric and Allan are big boys and can handle themselves just fine, but I think Allan has been treated with less than respect. 
We (Allan and I) may differ on some issues (my orientation for one), however to be accused of worshiping a “false God,” that is pretty harsh and I feel sad and mad about that for Allan’s sake. 
As for me and my house, we choose to worship Allan’s God above what Else has been presented, in a heart beat! 
Love wins hands down, every time.
Sonia, So let me get this straight, I get called a RADICAL FUNDAMENTALIST and that’s ok, ( By the same one who from the very beginning called for me to be blocked for saying HELL exists ). No one ever comes back with viable evidence from GODS WORD that i am incorrect, just hate replies or outright lies. Then i call a blind man a blind man, and that’s an insult? Boy…you people are very thin skinned and fragile on the receiving end, but when you open your mouths, your like ravaging wolves. Am i not allowed to defend myself along with the Truth that i am proclaiming? If you people are going to CRY FOUL, then don’t SPEW FOUL? By the way, what are we debating here,eternal punishment for the wicked? Matthew 25:46… Does anyone know what the word ETERNAL means? My dictionary say’s: HAVING INFINITE DURATION. And to think …some of you act as if you obtain some kind of high intellect??? Lying to yourselfs over and over again does not make TRUTH go away. And its not that God is evil and mean…That’s mankind my friends. REPENT and be cleansed by the blood of JESUS for your sin’s and lets all rejoice together in ETERNAL LIFE.
Is not pride one of the seven deadly sins? 
Bret, True Love only comes from the True GOD, the Creator and Originator of Real, True Love. We cant just make up our own gods as we go along. Do you people even hear what you are saying? How many gods do you people think there are? After listing to the post’s on this thread alone, it sounds like there is buffet of gods out there to choose from. FOOLISHNESS is blinding, and blinding foolishness comes from man’s pride. Ask Jesus to heal you
TD,
I very well may be foolish, but I am NOT blind.
Bret
Bret…All sin’s are deadly. REPENT
Bret, I did not say you are physically blind, But from reading your post…You are spiritually blind from the Truth.