I think the heart of the matter on this thread is that a young woman, an absolute sweetheart, expressed her fear and torment about the doctine of everlasting hell - and admitted courageously to having panic attacks etc. However, sincere some responses have been to this - they have also been chilling and sadisitc; and absolutely disgraceful in my view.
amen!
totally insensitive and unhelpful, especially when places have been provided for debates, like the negative section.
well, insensitivity is a halmark of those who have seared their consciences with the indoctrinated belief in a vengeful, sadistic god at worst or a weak, failing god at best.
God is not weak, and He is not sadistic. God is love, and love never fails. for those that want verses (ie clobber texts), try reading in 1st John how God is love, and then read Paul’s definition of how love behaves in 1 Cor 13.
I tried to post this as a new topic with a new OP, but I guess the only way to do that is for me to check each and every post individually (that I wanted to move), so I just split it off. Play nice, boys and girls. I shall try to do the same.
Cindy, I’m very hurt! You skewered one of my finest pieces of invective in your thread tidying. And now those pearls of wit are lost forever in the fathomless ocean of t’interweb 
.
Seriously, good job cleaning up ‘true’ (HA!) disciple’s mess.
J
Hi Matt
Many congratulations on your nuptials. I hope you and Mrs Jaxxen (who is kind of my sister-in-law now, the poor lass) have many many happy years of marriage together.
Thanks for asking after my Dad. He’s actually not been too well. He had another bout of pneumonia before Christmas, but thank God he’s pretty much back to full health now. My wife and have both just had flu, but otherwise we’re fine and looking forward to becoming grandparents (step-grandparent in my case) again in about six months time. Gracie’s Mum is having another littl’un, which naturally we’re thrilled about. And Gracie and her bro Maxim are both fine and dandy, thanks.
Jonathan Edwards eh? Well, I know Tim Keller thinks very highly of him, and I think very highly of Tim Keller. I loved his book The Reason for God. But I confess I find it hard to see the love in his fire and brimstoning.
All the best
Johnny
Matt (Jaxeen) -
I was completely wrong in my analysis of your analogy. You were referring to purgatorial fire rather than damnation. Yes I was blinded when I posted by the grumps 
Peace! It happens to all of us, Dick. You and I both are not exempt from such things 
Matt
Hey Johnny, glad to hear that you and the family have survived the winter thus far, illnesses not withstanding. Congrats on another baby on the way!
I’ll mention to Amy, my rib, about some extended family living in the land of Shakespeare and Bunyon. Lately I’ve been on a fish and chips binge!
You know, Johnny-you’re probably a much bigger expert on Keller, Piper and Driscoll than I am. I’ve never even read a single book by any of them 
An article or podcast or two from Keller and Piper, but that’s it. Go figure…
Anyway, it was good hearing from ya!
Matt
“Choose this day whom you will serve”, TD.
If the Bible truly teaches what you claim, why do you choose to seek and serve this God? How can you love this God with all your heart? How can you proclaim his name and sing his praises?
If my human father commands me to love him (and whips me if I refuse), would it even be possible to love him with all my heart? If a human ruler demands obedience and tortures all who refuse, who in their right mind would seek and serve such a man?
If God is the sort of person you describe, it would be brave, noble and honorable to curse him to his face, and boldly accept the consequences. I can well understand that cowards would flatter this God, bow and scrape and hope to escape his wrath, but do they really think they can deceive him with their weasel-words and pretense of devotion?
No. If God is as nasty as you believe, you’re welcome to his company. For me, I will set off in the dark and look for a better God, one who is actually worth loving. Do you know where I’ll find this good God? I’ll find him amongst the poor, the blind, the crippled, the despised. I’ll find him persecuted by your God, even thrown into hell where he will share the suffering of the oppressed, comfort those who mourn, and work with all his might to set the captives free.
Amen 
Hey Allan, before I respond to your post, I’d just like to commend you-and Cindy and Paidon, for that matter-for rightly contending for the truth of God and nature as it’s clearly revealed regarding the homosexual thread. I know that the 3 of you probably couldn’t care less of my commendation, but it’s still honorable to y’all.
As to the topic at hand, I’d say-and this is just a guess-that one of the fundamental differences is how we view man, let alon God. Shortly after the quote of Joshua 24:15, he goes onto say that the people CAN NOT serve the LORD because He is holy and jealous. The Reformed view is that the Fall so radically hit us that we are now enslaved to our own sinful minds and the wicked one. Only by being regenerated by the Holy Spirit can a man even begin to desire the true and living God. So in answer to your question to TD, I can only choose to seek and serve Him because He caused me to.I CAN NOT love God with all of my heart, because even though I have been born of the Spirit, the battle within my members rages on. Do you believe that you love the LORD with every fiber of your being and your neighbor as yourself at all times? In my view, only Jesus Himself fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law, thereby meeting the covenant of works. His righteousness is now mine through faith in Him. It’s what Luther referred to as an “alien righteousness”. When I begin to realise this, IT IS THEN that I can proclaim His name and sing His praises and tell of His glorious deeds! Yourself and other UR’s always equate the LORD with being an evil tyrant. That is clearly not how we view God, nor is it how Scripture reveals Him. A righteous judge who has commanded all of the peoples of the earth to worship Him and to love their neighbors punishing those who do not with perfect justice that fits the crimes committed and yet also sending His beloved Son to redeem some-those who will call upon His name-that is not the evil despot that you and others portray.
I know that I responded to TD’s question-my gut instinct is that he won’t be back-but I could be wrong about that. Anyway, I don’t expect you to suddenly become a Calvinist over this, but hopefully a little clarity is added as to why some of us believe what we belive.
Matt
Allan, there’s also something I’d like to add but before I do, let me qualify this by saying that I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you’re a grown man and can handle yourself on the internet. With that said, it appears that I’m singling you out, but that’s not the case. I’m simply using your views because they are common here and represent a fair amount of others and you happened to have posted last.
For you and others reading this, if possible, just try to put yourself in the Calvinist’s shoes. For the sake of arguement, just assume that Calvinism is correct. You state emphatically that re “Calvin’s God” it would be brave, noble and honorable to curse Him to His face and accept the consequences. You would rather spend an eternity in hell suffering His wrath than to accept His conditions for salvation. Sobornost equates Him with the sick tyrants of history.
Now, the Scriptures teach that there are none righteous, none that do good. That we are by nature children of wrath following the course of Satan. That our throats are empty graves, we use our tongues to deceive, snakes’ venom is behind our lips and that our mouths are full of bitterness and curses. That we tell Him to depart from us, that we do not desire to know His ways. You will only worship Him if it’s on your terms and He does what you deem to be right.
Based upon what you’ve said about God, far from disproving Calvinism, you have affirmed it. All of us by nature fit the above. But God, who is rich in mercy, for His own good pleasure, has delivered some of us out reprobation. For those that He didn’t save, their condemnation is just.
None of us can say, “I was worthy and deserved His favor”.
Since I first came to this forum just over a year ago, I have never cursed the UR God. I think y’all make some surprisingly good arguements-some very poor ones, too-and I have no problem whatsoever understanding why you believe what you believe. I remain unconvinced, but not totally unsympathetic. The same can not be said of this forum by and large. I say this now in a gentle spirit of warning, be careful how you refer to “Calvin’s God”, lest you be found calling that which is good, evil.
Matt
Oh Johnny! I’m so sorry. 
I didn’t mean to or even know that I did it. Please forgive? I wish I knew what I did wrong though, so I could avoid it in future.
Thanks, Matt.
And yes, you are an honorable brother and I believe you see things the way you see them from a desire for truth. I just think you’re not taking things all the way to their logical conclusions. In order for God to be good, He has to be good. His justice is not set over against His love, and He doesn’t need a contrast – or at the very least He doesn’t need a contrast that continues to exist forever. God’s goodness has to be the same as the goodness He commands for us, because we’re told to be like Him. The love described in Jesus’ sermon on the mount, in 1 John, in 1 Cor 13 – that is God’s love. That’s what it’s like, and not just for some but for all. You don’t have to re-interpret the love scriptures or the mercy ones or the justice ones. They all fit together when you realize that God is powerful enough to save them all and still glorify (reveal) Himself fully and yes even to do it without violating free will.
Jesus said the one set free by the Son shall be truly free. We do not come into this world as free agents; we need to BECOME free, and the only way to do that is through the Son. I do believe though that He gives us a little freedom – little by little at the right time. There is a moment of decision (or more likely many moments)
These people defied the will of the living God (unless He was mocking them when He implied that He longed for them to respond to Him as dear and obedient children). There are many such verses; enough to break the heart of anyone who loves God. But God is not a fool. If He has marked these people off for perdition and does not love them, why is He pretending that this rebellion brings Him pain if He Himself ordained it? God is not neurotic – not of several minds and personalities. He does not lie. God is one; He is constant; He does not change. His mercies endure – to the age. He destroys His foes by making them His friends.
But I am getting off track . . . I agree with you that we can only come to Him by His grace and sovereign enablement. I do not see a necessity that He will not in His perfect time, enable everyone He loves; and I see scripture saying to me that a) He does love every person He has created and will create, and that b) even if scripture seems unclear to you on this point, it also paints Him as the sort of Person who does have mercy on ALL His creation. The difficulty for Calvs and Arms imo is the concept that death is the dividing line, and after that event, the dead one no longer has the free will to choose (if you’re Arm) or God no longer may or will choose to save (if you’re Calv). But scripture does not say this. At the least it is silent, but I believe scripture goes beyond silence to imply or outright indicate the possibility of postmortem salvation.
It will happen when each person becomes free enough (by sovereign intervention) to receive the faith offered and begin to take steps toward Father, who loves but who is patient and waits. Sometimes we have to wait – even Father must wait, for that is the way it has to be done. I know about waiting. It is a heart-breaking thing to have to do even if you know that all will be well in God’s time. That, and my love for my fellow humans, is my motivation for evangelism; my Father’s heart. He has given to us the high calling of the ministry of reconciliation, and it is our duty to do it. Because we love Him and we feel His broken heart for His lost ones. We can be angry and disgusted (as He is too from time to time) with the rebellious and contrary ones who shun and abuse and shame Him as He reaches out the imploring hands of a Father to them all day long. We SHOULD be angry. But it is our ministry to go to them and implore – compel – them to come in.
Must He really go forever without His beloved ones when He could save them? My heart is for the lost but more than that, much much more than that, it is for my dear loving tender merciful Papa’s aching heart. Yes He is all powerful and will save them. But it still hurts to wait – even though He is the Eternal Wise God who sees the end from the beginning. He has given us the undeserved honor of designating us to go after our little brothers and sisters and bring them home to be reconciled to Him. Note – HE does not need to be reconciled to them. It is the sinner who needs to be reconciled to the Father who waits, scanning the brow of the hill, for the one who comes trembling and hoping against hope that he will not be rejected outright (as he deserves for his shameful treatment of his Father), but rather accepted as a sort of servant, earning his way perhaps back into some semblance of honor. But the Father’s heart has never rejected His child. He only wants the return of love and right relationship and He will make it happen as soon as the child is willing to submit to love. He even goes out to the elder brother who is shaming Him by refusing to come in, and implores HIM as well. Father’s love is humble, magnificent, all powerful, ever merciful, and ultimately triumphant.
Blessings, Cindy
Lemme at 'em! 
Hi Matt,
If none are righteous, if all are sinful from birth, if all our ideas about God and Man are bent grossly out of shape, how can you trust your judgment enough to be a convinced Calvinist?
If we are sinners by accident of birth, and if God has the power to save us all (but no intention of doing so), then this God is unworthy of my deepest love. Since I can conceive a better God, I am bound by honor, reason and prudence to seek him.
Hi Allan, I can trust my judgment by the light of Scripture, but here’s the rub: you also would say that…and so would Arminians So what do we do? What can I say that I do that you yourselves don’t also do? Pray for wisdom? Fast? Look at church history? Develop a meta-narrative? All of us do these things and yet we arrive at different conclusions, frustratingly enough. Should we say, “Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead, for I intend to sail into harms way?” I don’t want to be so haphazard when it comes to knowing the true and living God. And yet, we can’t all be right. One of us-or perhaps both, I reckon-are doing a great disservice to God. So, I have answered your first question but I’m sure my answer is also rhetorical.
As to your second statement, I’d say this: You can not conceive of a better God, only a different god that is more appealing to you. The same holds true for myself, as well. If UR is true, then “that God” is worthy of all adoration, love, worship etc.
If “Calvin’s God” is true, then the same applies whether we like it or not. We will ultimately know the truth about God in a much fuller way some day-unfortunately, it requires our demise to get there. And once there, whether UR or Reformed or Arminian, our issues will look much different than they do now, for better or for worse.
Matt
I don’t begin with scripture. I begin with a flawed and rudimentary intuition of the good. How else can I choose which holy book to follow? In the same way, the disciples followed Jesus because they judged him to be good. "“Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” Nathanael asked. “Come and see,” said Philip.
Negatively, the crowds were quite right to leave Jesus when they thought he was turning bad (“drink my blood” etc.) It was not their fault that Jesus spoke in riddles, saying one thing, but meaning another. The close disciples chose not to leave, not because they had a clue about this drinking blood business, but because they knew by now that whatever Jesus actually was saying, it would be good. “You have the words of eternal life.” Many a time they had to ask Jesus to “Please explain,” and were never disappointed.
In the same way, when Jesus talks about throwing people into the fire etc, I can’t be sure I know what he actually means, but I do know it must be good.
I believe the Bible inasmuch as it reveals the good God in Christ. I disbelieve it, ignore it, re-interpret it etc inasmuch as it reveals a bad God. (The parable of the wheat and the tares springs to mind.) In the same way, I believe the Church only inasmuch as it reveals the good God. And I believe Calvinists only inasmuch as they reveal the good God.
Truly, we need to be bold. God likes bold. God was pleased when Job demanded God be good. God liked Abraham for the same reason. And Jesus praised the Samaritan woman who had the gall to argue back. “God is gracious only to the Jews? What nonsense is this? God is far better than that! Why, even a dog under the table gets to eat the crumbs!”
What a brilliant reply. I can see her eyes flashing. I’d bet a very decent bottle of red that Jesus laughed aloud with delight. This was the sort of faith he was always looking for. “Though he slay me, yet will I praise him.”
Hi Cindy
Honestly, don’t worry, I was only ribbing you. A lot of my drivel is probably best lost anyway
All the best
Johnny
Hi Matt
You issue a challenge to those of us who have our differences with Calvinism - and I repeat, with Calvinism, the theology - not with you personally. You know I like *you * .
I’d go further than my diplomatic Professor friend. I’d say the fictitious God of Calvinism is infinitely worse than all the sick tyrants of history, for as you say yourself, they are reprobate humans with no choice but to act badly. They can’t help being evil. (Neither can any of the rest of us under Calvinist theology, but that’s by the by.) Calvin’s God on the other hand deliberately *chooses *to torture his creatures when he could just have well have chosen to love them. The only correct, moral reaction to this fictional monster is to thumb your nose in disgust at him.
"Based upon what you’ve said about God, far from disproving Calvinism, you have affirmed it, " you say. I say piffle and balderdash. You put up an evil shibboleth of a God for decent moral people to throw stones at then blame them when they do! Well what the hell are we *supposed *to do, fall down and worship this so-called deity who makes Moloch look like the Tooth Fairy? Not bloody likely! What you’ve got to understand Matt is that your arguments are circular and self-referential. If Calvinism were 100% true then your arguments might be valid. But seeing as how it isn’t your arguments about total depravity are invalid also.
Thanks for your concern, Matt, but I no more need warning off calling Calvin’s God evil than I do Mephistopheles himself (not that I believe in Old Nick, but there you go). By ascribing the toxic theology of Calvinism to the true God of love revealed in Jesus you are committing a far greater blasphemy than any anti-Calvinist ever could. What is most worrying about this is that you don’t seem worried about it. And that, Matt, is one reason why so many people loathe Calvinism with a passion.
All the best
Johnny
Love this Allan. I question. I question a LOT. It’s not to be critical, it’s just because I want something real with God. I do wonder what He thinks about it though…I can see it both ways…He knows the truth of my heart for Him or I’m just a stiff-necked and rebellious child. I suppose He’d rather me just be honest…Wouldn’t He? And that is the crux of the matter. Just who IS this God we serve? Does He really want a deep, love relationship with us? Or, does He just want our service because He’s God and He says so? I would not fault Him if it were the latter. He’s God, He CAN do what He wants. I just don’t know if I can give Him my whole heart. And that sucks, because I really want to.
Sass