The Evangelical Universalist Forum

For Those Who Rail Against Hell by John Macarthur

and the series continue:- gty.org/Blog/B110506

Is Hell Really Endless?

*Punishment in hell is defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. There are people who would like to redefine that word aionios and say, “Well, it doesn’t really mean forever.” But if you do that with hell, you’ve just done it with heaven, because the same word is used to describe both. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting heaven. And I’ll go one beyond that. The same word is used to describe God. And so if there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting heaven, nor is there an everlasting God. It is clear that God is eternal; and, therefore, that heaven is eternal, and so is hell. (John MacArthur, “A Testimony of One Surprised to Be in Hell, Part 2”)

Augustine put it simply more than 1,500 years ago: “To say that life eternal shall be endless, [but that] punishment eternal shall come to an end is the height of absurdity.”*

gty.org/Blog/B110506

I’m sure I will be repeating what has been said often on this forum…

What some folks have said… Sorry Oxy for the length of this post… I cut a whole bunch out :wink:

But just in case you did not

The Greek word aion (and its forms) is the word used to translate for ever, eternal, and everlasting. This word does not have as its meaning “endless duration” as our religious traditions have taught us; rather it denotes a limited duration, an interval of time. Thus, it is also used to translate our English words “ages,” or “world.”

The Greek noun aion is used 128 times. It is translated in the King James Version as follows:

Ages 2
Evermore 4
Course 1
Never 7
Eternal 2
World 40
Ever 72

The Greek adjective aionios is used 71 times. It is translated in the King James Version as
follows:

Eternal 42
Everlasting 25
Ever 1
World 3
ETYMOLOGY, DEFINITION, & USAGE

Now, let’s take a closer look at this Greek word aion. We will look at its etymology, definition.

Etymology

“Etymology gives no warrant for applying the idea of eternity to the word … We find no reason in its etymology for giving it the sense of endless duration.” – J.W. Hanson, The Greek Word Aion, 1875 (pages 10-11).
“It must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered ‘eternal’ does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the New Testament to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending” – Charles John Ellicott, Ellicott’s Commentary on the Whole Bible.

Definition

“the time of life” – Hesychius (A.D. 400-600).

“an interval denoting time” – Theodoret (A.D. 300-400).

“Properly, an age” – James Strong, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance Greek Lexicon (Greek #165).

“Primarily signifies time, in the sense of age, or generation” – International Standard Bible
Encyclopedia (page 1010).

“An age” – W.E. Vine, Vine’s Expository Dictionary.

“A period of time related to the subject” – Charles J. Wilhelm, Biblical Dyslexia (2004), Page 80.

“Any space of time whether longer or shorter, past, present or future, to be determined by the persons or things spoken of, and the scope of the subjects; the life or age of man. Aionios, a definite and long period of time, that is, a long enduring, but still definite period of time.” – John Schleusner, Novus Thesaurus Philologico-Criticus (1829).

“The life that hastes away in the breathing of our breath, life as transitory; then the course of life, time of life, and general life in its temporal form, then, the space of human life, an age.” – E.W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance.

“A period of existence; one’s lifetime; life; an age; a generation; a long space of time. A space of time clearly defined and marked out; an era, epoch, age, period or dispensation. – Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon.

“Time; space of time; life time and life; the ordinary period of man’s life; the age of man; man’s estate; a long period of time” – James Donnegan, A New Greek and English Lexicon (1839).

“Aion: A space of time, as a lifetime, generation, period of history, an indefinitely long period” – Abbott-Smith, Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament.

THE RELIGIOUS CONCEPT OF “ETERNAL”

Interestingly enough, our English word “eternal” comes from the Latin æternus which means, literally, “lasting for an age.” – Walter Skeat, The Concise Dictionary of English Etymology, 1882. This is confirmed by many etymological sources:

“lasting for an age” – John Kennedy, Word Stems: A Dictionary, 1996 (page 128).

“age” – Robert K. Barnhart, Barnhart’s Concise Dictionary of Etymology, 1995 (page 254).

“age” – Ernest Weekly, An Etymological Dictionary of Modern English, 1967 (page 526).

Somewhere along the way the meaning of the word “eternal” took on its modern religious concept. “Eternal” has come to mean “endless.” This definition is purely religious, rooted in Greek philosophy.

The Testimony of Others

We are not alone in coming to see the important scriptural meaning of “for ever,” “eternal,” and
“everlasting.” Consider the testimony of others concerning the current concept of “endless” as related to “eternity:”

“No, doubt it was right at one time to translate aion by eternal, and would be right again could we reinstate the original significance of the word: for, strangely enough, the word ‘eternal’ originally meant age-long.” Samuel Cox, Salvator Mundi, or Is Christ the Saviour of All Men? 1877 (p. 119).

“Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word ‘eternity.’ We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal’ which as commonly used among us means absolutely without end.” – G. Campbell Morgan, God’s Methods With Men (p.185).

“Eternity is not a Biblical theme … What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation.” – Charles H. Welch, An Alphabetical Analysis (Vol. 1, p. 279, 52).

“Aion … is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself … The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting … The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting … Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated.” – Marvin Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59).

“That aiónion, does not mean endless or eternal, may appear from considering that no adjective can have a greater force than the noun from which it is derived. If aión means age (which none either will or can deny) then aiónion must mean age-lasting, or duration through the age or ages to which the thing spoken of relates.” – Nathaniel Scarlett (1798).

“Since aion meant ‘age,’ aionios means, properly, ‘belonging to an age,’ or ‘age-long,’ and anyone who asserts that it must mean ‘endless’ defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago.” – Frederic William Farrar, Mercy and Judgment, (p. 378).

“The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in a philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam … in contexts where it is traditionally translated ‘forever,’ means, in itself, no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period.’ … In the New Testament, aion is used as the equivalent of olam.” – Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible.

“The Old Testament and the New Testament are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The Old Testament has not developed a special term for ‘eternity.’ The word aion originally meant ‘vital force,’ ‘life;’ then ‘age,’ ‘lifetime.’ It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time …” – The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643).

“There is no word either in the Old Testament Hebrew or in the New Testament Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting-nonetheless ‘eternal’ is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of ‘endlessly existing,’ and thus to be practically a synonym for ‘everlasting.’ But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.” – Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (p. 370).

CONCLUSION

In the Scriptures, “for ever,” “eternal,” and “everlasting” cannot possibly convey the meaning of “endless.”

(1) If so, how could aion ever be in the plural?

(2) If so, how could aion ever be spoken of as having an end?

The basic concept of aion does not convey the religious system’s imposed definition of “without end.” A clear understanding of biblical words, defined by the Scriptures themselves, is always the best remedy to the traditional bondage of the mind by the doctrines of men.

Thanks to Clyde Pilkington at BibleStudentsNotebook.com

Shorter answer this time. :slight_smile: I think :smiley:

For reasons stated in my last post here I find Matt 25:46 a very poor “proof text” of the life God will give us at the end of the ages. I much prefer 1Cor 15:50-57 were we find that we shall receive “incorruption” and “immortality”.

As already stated, the meaning of the word “aionios” is “age-lasting,” not “eternal.” Rotherham’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

"To address the accusation that we are somehow limiting the life of God by our translation of the word “aionios,” we most confidently declare that God’s life never had a beginning, nor will have an end. This life can be found nowhere except in God. This life fills both time and eternity. It existed before the ages (1 Cor. 2:7), and it will continue after the ages (1 Cor. 15:28 ). God is eternal (Rom. 1:20–Gk. word “aidios”), indissoluble (Heb. 7:16), and immortal (1 Tim. 6:16), and therefore, His life is also eternal, indissoluble, and immortal.

Man, on the other hand, is both temporal and mortal. He is not born with this God-life. The Bible says, “Only God hath immortality.” (1 Tim. 6:16) Man exists wholly in the realm of time (ages). He has never known anything but the realm of time. He lives and he dies. He is born and goes back to the dust whence he came. So when God imparts His life, it is imparted to mortal man who is “aionian.” In other words, man has been given life which pertains to the ages. This does not mean that the essence of God’s life is somehow temporary (or that God is temporary), it simply means that the life of God is imparted to man who is bound to the ages and who is NOT immortal. The ancient Egyptian and Greek teaching that says that man has an immortal soul (now embraced by the Church) is not scriptural. The only reason man has any life at all is because God (who is life) chooses to impart it to His creatures.

When the Bible speaks of the “aionian God” (1 Tim. 1:17), it does not mean that God is less than eternal. It simply means that He manifests Himself within the framework of time. That which is seen is temporal; that which is unseen is eternal. When the Bible says that God is “aionian,” it means He is “aionian” in the sense that He can move and manifest Himself in the realm of sight.

When the Bible speaks of the “eternal” God (Rom. 1:20), this means that God transcends all time, and He manifests Himself in that which is unseen. God is the only One who can exist in both the state of time and timelessness. Jesus, after His resurrection, possessed the fullness of God’s life allowing Him to manifest Himself in both the “aionian” realm (when He showed Himself to the disciples) and the “eternal” realm (being with the Father).

“Aionian” life is that life which is applicable to the ages (time). “Immortality” is that life which is applicable to the state of timelessness. Both emanate from God who is indissoluble, unchangeable, immortal, and the One who NEVER dies. Again, it is not “aionian” in that its quality is somehow temporary, but in that it is given to man who is temporary. Since I am limited in my flesh, I cannot experience anything other than “aionian” life. I cannot move through walls and appear and disappear as Christ did. When I lay down this mortality, and put on immortality, then I will be able to minister both to God (eternal) and to my brethren who are still limited by temporal time (aionian).

No one who believes in universal reconciliation teaches that God is temporary. This is a twisting of our words that those who oppose the truth of universal reconciliation use to try and discredit the glorious gospel. While we in no way deny God’s “eternal” nature, we do believe that the nature of man is temporary. If God doesn’t give His life to us, then we would all perish forever going back to the “dust from whence we came.”"

Thank you Mr. K.Eckerty. He says it much better than I could.

Grace and peace

You are not answering anyones question. This statment is a common strategy used by people who have lost an argument and want to throw their opponent off. You make a series of emotional attacks or statments that you have heard or come up with and the focus is off of your failure to be able to logically answer the question at hand. You are not addressing the realities they are showing you in scripture.

What do you really think? I am sicerelly interested; I come from a place simillar to where you are at in your thinking, but in God’s grace and in my learning to really walk with Him have moved to where he really is. I would like to see how you are really walking with Jesus. Show Him to me through your walk and we will fellowship.

Please see Even Augustine taught post-mortem salvation

(and the Series continues:-) gty.org/Blog/B110511

The Severity of Hell

The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment…tends to be one of the first doctrines given up by people who are moving away from a commitment to the Bible as absolutely truthful …]. Among liberal theologians who do not accept the absolute truthfulness of the Bible, there is probably no one today who believes in the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment. (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology) gty.org/Blog/B110511

Here is the full text of the article:

The Severity of Hell
Wednesday, May 11, 2011

Charles Spurgeon once advised fellow-preachers, “Shun all views of future punishment that would make it appear less terrible.” Yet another timely word from Spurgeon—efforts to extinguish the flames of hell abound in our day, just as they did in his.

As you listen to popular views about hell, you can test what you hear with a few biblically-discerning questions:

* Does this view of hell diminish the threat of God’s judgment?
* Does this teaching soften the urgency of repentance?
* Is this offering the sinner any hope of salvation beyond this life?

Modern views of hell won’t survive the test of biblical fidelity. They’ll allow the sinner to feel more comfortable and complacent by defanging God, making Him appear less severe.

Challenges to the doctrine of hell start out by questioning what the Bible clearly says, but they don’t end there. Wayne Grudem, recognizing the trend to make hell appear more bearable, noticed a tragic pattern:

The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment…tends to be one of the first doctrines given up by people who are moving away from a commitment to the Bible as absolutely truthful …]. Among liberal theologians who do not accept the absolute truthfulness of the Bible, there is probably no one today who believes in the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment. (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology)

Two of the more prominent campaigns against hell are attacks against its eternality and severity. Travis gave us some help in understanding the eternality of hell; now let’s take a look at hell’s severity.

Will hell really be that bad?

Whenever Jesus described hell, He was never flippant or dismissive. He used vivid, terrifying terms to describe the final destination of sinners, shocking and scaring His audiences with frighteningly graphic metaphors. Hell is a place so bad that you should be willing to cut off sensitive, irreplaceable parts of your body to avoid it (Mt. 5:29-30); even martyrdom would be worth avoiding the torment of hell (Matt. 10:28). He always presented hell as a horrific place of intolerable suffering.

His descriptions are consistent with other biblical writers. Daniel referred to hell as a place of shame and everlasting contempt (Dan. 12:2). Paul called it a place of endless destruction and punishment (2 Thess. 1:5-10). Jude called hell a place of eternal fire and darkness (Jude 7). The Apostle John described hell as a place where sinners suffer everlasting torment, with no rest day or night (Rev. 14:9-11).

Taken together, all those descriptions of hell communicate pain, fear, loss, anger, separation, and hopelessness. It’s utter agony, eternal torment.

Agony and Torment

The New Testament describes hell as a place of unimaginable torment. Biblical writers help us picture scenes of unspeakable horror, and most of the time they’re merely quoting what Jesus said about hell:

* weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12)
* spiritual and bodily destruction (Mt. 10:28)
* fiery furnaces (Matt. 13:42, 50)
* outer darkness (Matt. 22:13)
* unquenchable fires (Mark 9:48-49)
* endless torments (Luke 16:23-24)

John Calvin, commenting on those descriptions, wrote, "By such expressions, the Holy Spirit certainly intended to confound all our senses with dread.” Calvin understood the Bible’s appeal to our senses. When you read about hell in Scripture, you can almost hear the agonizing wails, smell the smoke and burning sulfur, see the flames from the lake of fire, and feel the seething anger of the wicked as they gnash their teeth at the Righteous Judge.

Jesus used pictures and metaphors to help us understand the horror of hell. Darkness represents loneliness, insecurity, the sense of being lost and disoriented; fire represents the excruciating pain of burning; and a lake of fire represents the sense of drowning, suffocating, taking the burning sulfur internally. These vivid pictures of hell’s environment should provoke a reasonable sense of fear in a normal, thinking person. No one can come away with the idea that hell is a tolerable place to spend eternity.

Abandonment

While it’s true that hell is a place of untold physical pain and suffering (fire, scorching, being cut to pieces), I think we often overlook the mental agony of being completely forsaken—abandoned for all eternity. After all, the most chilling cry from our Lord as He suffered God’s wrath on the cross stemmed not from physical pain, but from being forsaken by the Father. Jesus cried out, “My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me?” (Matt. 27:46).

John MacArthur explained the significance of God forsaking the Son in relation to hell: “This is a reminder to all sinners that while hell is the full fury of God’s personal punishment presence, He will never be there to comfort. He will never be there to show sympathy. He will never bring relief. …] it is both the punishment of God and the absence of comfort. …] That’s hell—punishment without relief (“The King Crucified: Consummation at Calvary”). As the Puritan Thomas Vincent put it, “Not only will the unbeliever be in hell, but hell will be in him too.”

Imprisonment

The New Testament frequently presents hell as a prison—a place of eternal confinement (Mt. 22:13; Jude 13; 2 Pet. 2:9). It’s impossible to understand first-century prison conditions by looking at American prisons today where accommodations include cable television, three square meals, educational opportunities, outdoor exercise, and toilet/shower facilities. In many of the world’s jails throughout history, jailors didn’t just treat prisoners like criminals, but rather as sub-humans, as animals.

But even the worst of earthly prison conditions serve as weak analogies to the eternal dungeon of God’s hell. God will offer nothing to comfort or relieve his agony—ever. In hell, sinners will forever be hopeless, helpless, and powerless. God casts them into hell for one reason—punishment (2 Thess. 1:9).

Look at the Cross

If you want an inside glimpse of the agonies of hell, look at the Savior in Gethsemane as He anticipated the cross. See the bloody drops of sweat falling from his body as He faced the reality of absorbing His Father’s eternal wrath. Hear His agonizing screams from the cross as His Father—for the first and last time—abandoned His sin-bearing Son. Feel His loneliness as He faced those agonies alone.

Hell is a place where God’s full wrath and fury will be poured out eternally on sinners. Possessing in Himself the essence and omniscience of deity, Christ knew what He spoke of. And as our sin-bearing substitute, He anticipated the torments of hell and finally experienced the full outpouring of divine wrath for all those who believe.

Scripture is abundantly clear about the doctrine of hell. Nothing good can come from advocating a view of hell that makes it out to be anything less than a hopeless, agonizing, eternal separation from the good and gracious presence of God. If you reject, diminish, or neglect the doctrine of hell, you undermine the gravity of our sin in contrast to the holiness of God. But armed with accurate teaching on hell, you help the sinner understand why he must flee from the wrath of God to the mercy of Jesus Christ.

Tommy Clayton
Content Developer and Broadcast Editor

Oxy and Dirtboy

What is your purpose with this ECT propaganda that most, if not all of us at one point followed but now have seen a Greater Light. Is it to try and make of us good little Macathurite like yourself or what?

As I have said to you on another thread, have you prayerfully read all the resources availible to you through this forum and other websites. If you have and are still of the opinion that we are wrong, then all I can say is sorry that you feel this way and I will be praying for you. Praying that our Heavenly Father would remove the veil of tradition from your eyes.

Grace and peace

Hey URPilgrim,
Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you! I don’t believe in ECT. I am a “new convert” to UR theology, but am still struggling through some issues with various ECT proofs. I think that the proofs in favor of UR outweigh the proofs against, at this point. The reason why I posted this article that oxy was quoting was that** the author is actually going back to a hell that many modern, conservative, ECT evangelicals have rejected.** He wants to stress that hell’s occupants are going to literally be on fire day and night, burning in constant anguish. He goes on and on to show how terrifyingly torturous it is. I should have commented on my reasons for posting it, but he seems to revel in its hideousness. I just don’t get why some folks seem to revel in hells horrors.

I have had many arguments with oxy, but gave up because, to me, he doesn’t really listen to any arguments in favor of UR. I’ve never seen him actually take a pro UR argument from scripture and take it on, point by point, answering the scriptures. Anyhow, sorry to upset you, URPilgrim. I’m actually on your side :smiley:

Hey Dirtboy

Likewise, I apologize Dirtboy, I did not mean to put you in Oxy’s camp. :blush: I too am new to The wonderful truths of EU and learning much here on this forum. After too many years having preached the horrible things that are in that article myself. I had a hard time reading the whole thing. Please forgive me :cry:

Having come out of the circles that taught ECT, unfortunately it is still far too prevalent in the more fundamental groups. The type that still believe that the KJV is still the best english translation :open_mouth: I hope I have not step on your toes by making that statement.

I must not let Oxy get under my skin :laughing:

God bless

I had a hard time reading the whole thing.

It was awful wasn’t it? I put it there to kind of remind us how crazy that way of thinking is. Can you imagine God actually stoking the fires to make sure that people stay lit? :open_mouth: It’s crazy. oxy is having someone represent ECT with the craziest, most literal, disturbing kind of hell and I think it will backfire against him.

Anyhow, no problem at all my brother. You have not stepped on my toes at all - I’m completely on your side! The KJV has “hell” in it fifty something times and it’s simply wrong. Have you read the article about taking hell out of the bible? It shows how translators have been taking the word out as they are getting more accurate.

Peace,

Chris

If Christ took hell upon himself in our place, and the full outpouring of divine wrath is everlasting and absolute separation from God the Father, then Christ must still be writhing in the flames. If hell is a one-way ticket, no exceptions, then Christ himself cannot escape. It seems the traditional view of hell as ECT is inconsistent with belief in the resurrection of Christ, against whom the gates of hell could not prevail.

It’s interesting that the rich man is separated from Lazarus by a gulf that cannot be crossed. But if God the Son enters hell while God the Father is in Heaven, then heaven and hell become one. Both become the dwelling place of God. The darkness is filled with divine light. The unity of God trumps any rival disunity. As Paul says, all things in heaven, earth and under the earth have been united by Christ’s death.

If it is not possible for men such as Abraham and Lazarus and the rich man to cross the gulf, then surely what is impossible with Men to mediate and cross; is possible with God who is also our mediator.

Hi Allan,

I wondered about this and came to perhaps 2 conclusions:

  1. Jesus suffered hell on the cross. In Matthews Gospel, account of the Crucifixion has in chapter 27, verse 46 “About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?”
    It seems to me that Jesus suffered actual separation from God the Father in that time.
  2. Jesus facing God’s wrath would be the only one who would be able to defeat death. One of the facets of the Gospel message is that Jesus has taken the punishment for our sin. In our acceptance of Him, he stands in our place and we are justified. If we reject Jesus, we stand alone having to pay the price for our sins and as we are not divine, there is no way we get out the other side. I read something once that I thought was good from a youtube poster along the lines of the fact that God has already dealt with sin through Jesus, so the problem is no longer with sin but is how we respond to His Son.

Hi Sazag,

I can’t swallow the idea that God the Father rejected God the Son. It’s like saying He drew a square circle. Rather than hating his Son, surely the Father never loved him more than in that terrible moment. If the Father had indeed forsaken the Son, to whom was Jesus speaking? And a breath later, Jesus commits his spirit into his Father’s care, and God both heard and answered his prayer. If Christ had been utterly forsaken, if he was in a place of absolute separation from his Father, he would still be there. That’s what absolute separation means.

Surely a better explanation would be this: Jesus wished to draw his tormentors minds to Psalm 22. They would have known it by heart. They thought it referred to them, to Israel, to their suffering, but Jesus was saying No, it refers to me:

I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone…
All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
“He trusts in the LORD,” they say, “let the LORD rescue him…”

Many bulls surround me… Roaring lions that tear their prey open…
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax… My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth…
you lay me in the dust of death.

Dogs surround me… they pierce my hands and my feet…
All my bones are on display… people stare and gloat…
They cast lots for my garment.

But you, LORD, do not be far from me…Deliver me from the sword,

I will declare your name to my people…For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—

Posterity will serve him; They will proclaim his righteousness…

He has done it!

I think Christ’s anguish is the revelation in space and time of the eternal anguish of God in the face of human evil. We have crucified God from the beginning. Adam ate the apple and hid in the bushes. That surely broke God’s heart. “Adam. My dearest, beautiful Adam. Where are you?” God has borne our sin, has suffered in our place, has sacrificed himself for us, has swallowed his own wrath from the very first. We humans don’t realize how deeply we hurt him and how much he has taken upon himself. Christ changes all that. Christ doesn’t change God’s mind toward us: he reveals it. In him we glimpse the face of God. Christ doesn’t stand between us and an angry God. Christ is God, standing up for us. He is, has always been, for us. To accept Christ is to recognize the agony our sin causes Him and to turn from it with loathing. I’m reminded of the man who gave Jesus some vinegar to drink. Was there perhaps a hint of compassion in that act? May we also be ones who bring a moment of comfort to God’s heart.

Hi Allan,
Thankyou for drawing my attention to the comparison of Psalm 22 and it being Jesus’ way of showing those present as His crucifixion that He was the Messiah prophecyed about in the Old Testament. I just read an article about it over at TruthOrTradition.com and I completely missed it. Psalm 22 seems to be very positive about all people worshipping God. Its a completely new perspective for me. Thanks Allan. :smiley:

And yet another EU supporting verse. :laughing:

I find that happens quite a lot. UR really is a paradigm shift.

It certainly seems that way. :slight_smile: Even the rich of the earth (Christ’s mortal enemies) will join the party.

and the series continues:- gty.org/Blog/B110518

Is God a Monster?

It’s become popular today for professing evangelicals to join the ranks of Pinnock, atheists, and agnostics in protesting the doctrine of hell…*

*It’s become popular today for professing evangelicals to join the ranks of Pinnock, atheists, and agnostics in protesting the doctrine of hell. They are preaching sermons, writing articles, and publishing books, and some are wandering into the comment threads of Christian blogs. Here’s a small sampling from Grace To You’s blog in our recent series on hell:

“What kind of God torments people for all eternity?”
“…Satan loves the false doctrine of eternal torment”
“[eternal torment is] cruel and unusual punishment”
“[eternal torment] makes God out to be a cruel tyrant,” “absolutely cruel and malevolent”
“How can you in your right minds even consider this to be justice?”*

gty.org/Blog/B110518

**
I may be a Calvinist but I take comfort that I am on the right path in knowing that there is very, very, very, very little I would agree with an atheist about God if at all. Universalism would side with atheism (darkness) etc… about A major doctrine that pertains to the character and nature of God, which is why Christians and universalists are not brothers and sisters in Christ. That is siding with darkness and the light NEVER sides with the dark**

(2 Corinthians 6:14)
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?