The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Will and Boasting

Aug:

Continuing with my internal mental exercise about this matter of boasting and free will…

Suppose one were to grant your correctness and thereby give you the “right” to boast (or at least recognize that right) in your own participation in your own salvation…
… what on earth would one actually do with such information??? Of what practical value is it?
(I do recognize yours is a more cerebral quarrel with the validity of LFW vs determinism vs something else/better/worse… and as such, the practicalities of what I’m mentioning are not particularly relevant here – or fair…)

I only bring this up because I sense a dynamic here I had failed to detect earlier. Salvation, in your question/dilemma, is an individual and solitary matter. And, I’m told, that is a uniquely “Western” mode of thinking. So if salvation is really about “me” getting myself saved as a singular drama in history, then yes, maybe boasting matters in this realm…

… But, if there is also a real element of the corporate at play here (think of all the talk of “community” you’ve heard…) it seems that the very moment one grasps the reality of his own redemption (and it’s a glorious moment isn’t it!) it’s as if he immediately alters his paradigm (or has his paradigm altered, if he’s listening) to one in which NOW his concerns quickly align directly with that of the Father and he immediately alters course to one of deep concern for those others around him who have not yet entered this new paradigm of community.

So at the very moment of salvation the “game”, (it’s not, of course, a mere “game”) I’m suggesting, changes to one where we now see all others as objects of God’s saving Grace – just as we once were. And if we are truly “saved” we would see this. And thus our last thought would be to… boast.

I understand you are talking about this in a more academic and cerebral realm and as a vehicle to question LFW and determinism…

But beliefs have consequences… And maybe (maybe???) one consequence of salvation is that we gain an incredibly new vision of how much those others (you know; the lost ones who don’t yet “get” it…) actually matter to God and so we adjust our attitudes accordingly…

Just continuing to ponder on a blustery and rainy afternoon in Florida!!

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Bob, I got lots of good stuff from Tom and you to ponder, but just a quick reaction to concerns about a logical “right to boast.” I agree salvation should be understood as something that leads us to value all and corporately. But as cerebral as I am, I think my concern arises from the experiential reality of my Arminian upbringing that emphasized seeing everyone as given the same ability (as me) to make the right choices.

Despite affirming something all important, that God loves everyone equally (a good Arminian basic), it felt like justifying looking down on those who made inferior choices seemed to irresistably follow from that view, unless they felt as if their greater brilliance of choice was due to the Hound of Heaven.

I tend to see truth on both sides of the coin. Def. TGB is correct that both DET and LFW subscribers have a self-centeredness which sources such boasting. But I also still see that LFW, unlike DET, holds within itself a catalyst for that self-centeredness.

Here’s where I see a difference with TGB’s last response.

Any boasting which LFW leaves us prone to boasting is due to its own inherent nature where DET lacks that inherent nature. Where unconditional love is required to deactivate this inherent flaw in LFW, Determinism does not require it.

Now one could try to argue that the reason is because someone misunderstands LFW and thus become prone, but the argument is difficult because LFW DEMANDS that God not be the one to generate the faith which produces the wisdom of the person. OR LFW demands that God not be the one to generate the wisdom which generates the faith, whichever comes first (doesn’t really matter). The point is that LFW stands upon the simple fact that God awaits us to generate some form of faith which he did not put in us. And here I find Keith Green (though he was certainly confused) when he sang “YOU PUT THIS LOVE IN MY HEART!” - I tend to agree with him. For as I’ve done self-reflection, I can say determinism has taught me one thing, “I KNOW THAT NOTHING GOOD LIVES IN ME”.

I don’t know if I mentioned it but I put it like this to William Birch. He asked me if I believe God authored sin and I responded…
No more than I believer sinners author righteousness. - Here I think TV has pitched his tent (along with me) to try to understand the nature of faith and God’s work in our lives.

Except DETs have a different kind of boasting they’re at risk of; and moreso as they may think this amounts to “boasting in God” or “boasting in the cross” and not in themselves. They might even think they were determined by God to boast this way, in order to bring God glory, and so they couldn’t possibly be at fault for doing so. After all, they’re only stating the facts, aren’t they? :wink:

As I noted earlier, it’s also one of the kinds of boasting that the Jews were vulnerable to–just like they were vulnerable to the Arm risk of boasting. “GOD HAS CHOSEN ME TO BE OF THE ELECT AND NOT YOU, YOU WRETCHED HOPELESSLY NON-ELECT SINNER!”

Universalism helps undercut the ground for this boasting; just as universalism helps undercut the ground for Arm boasting in the superior use of one’s free will. But the ground is always there either way to be abused if someone chooses to go that route.

That’s largely because this whole issue (I think) is another case of both/and, not either/or.

Start from the position of sin (as a penitent I prefer to focus on this than on any advantages I might have… :wink: ) In one sense it is entirely true that some people are worse sinners than other people. No one will argue that Hitler wasn’t a worse sinner than Mother Teresa, or that Satan (or whoever the chief most powerful rebel is right this moment) isn’t a worse sinner than I am.

In another sense, though–and MT would have been the first to say so, I expect!–Hitler was no worse a sinner than Mother Teresa; and Satan is no worse a sinner than I am. Put another way, I have no advantage over Satan, even in my penitence: a sinner is a sinner and apart from the grace of God any sin at all would be lethal to annihilation. In one way sins really can be big or little, but in another way all sins are mortal and even sins against the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures give us examples of both precepts. People are always being praised as being ethically better or worse than other people, sometimes quite extremely. And yet we are encouraged to seriously regard ourselves as being the chief of sinners, especially when seeking the mercy of God.

The same goes for righteousness and advantages in salvation. In one sense it’s blatantly obvious that I have been given many advantages–what country and time I was born into, what parents I had, what church they attended and the competency of the teachers and preachers there, my personal competency, and exposure to data for me to use that competency with. And there can be no doubt that I myself, as myself, have used my competency to cooperate in arriving where I am. Even if it is a sin to boast about such things, the fact still remains that I have those advantages and I made use of them, just like the man given ten talantons of silver made use of it. (Had he boasted about what he had done with what was given to him, is there any doubt that his and the single gift of the man who refused to do anything for his king, would have been given to the one who had five?!)

On the other hand, everything I have, even my ability to use such things, was given to me, and kept in existence by someone other than me (primarily speaking, regardless of what I may have done to cooperate in exercising maintaining and growing those gifts–cooperative abilities which also were given to me). I can’t boast about having created and maintained any of that (even if I could boast in being such a good cooperator); but I could boast about having been given those things when other people haven’t–a type of boasting we usually recognize as being vastly more contemptible (the boasting of a rich child in his riches, or even in his parents, or even in his parents’ love for him) than the boasting of someone who has worked hard. Check out this awesome gaming rig my parents bought me for Christmas!–I have one and you don’t! Aren’t you jealous?! YAY ME!!!

Still, the facts are the facts, and the facts are that I might be given a lot more (at least initially) than someone else in various ways; and that I might of my own free will make better use of my gifts than someone else in various ways. I might start off with more talent than other people have; and/or I might hone more skill than other people have. I can’t be saved from boasting in such things (quite different kinds of boasting, rather opposed to one another in fact) by focusing on one instead of another side. I’m not supposed to be focusing on either side, or if I do it should only be in gratitude.

One might say that in the case of focusing on my talents I should be gratefully receiving, and in the case of focusing on my skills I should be gratefully giving. As Jesus said, reported in GosLuke: freely given, you have received; be giving, freely given. (That’s a poetic translation, but what was said amounts to this.)

If one or either of those isn’t being done in love for other people, then either focus is worse than useless. And trying to escape by eliminating my personhood is worse than useless, too, because then I’m not loving myself the way God loves me: I’m trying to make myself a puppet rather than accepting and dealing with the sonship God is bringing me into.

So in fact I may have real advantages, of a sort, over other people. And they may have real advantages, of various sorts, over me!

But in the most important way, under the love of God, none of us have any advantage over anyone else, including for salvation in the long run (even if we have temporary advantages in salvation given to us in the short run–and not given to us for our own sake, but so that we can be lights to the world for other people!) God’s scope of love, even saving love, is total (as the Arms recognize and teach); and God’s persistence of love, even saving love, is total (as the Calvs recognize and teach). I have no advantage over anyone, even over Satan, in regard to God’s love and salvation.

At any rate, it isn’t hard to test for how much pride (and it’s pride we’re talking about when talking of boasting) we have in ourselves and/or in our station. How much are we willing to appreciate and rejoice in the advantages other people have over us?! Admittedly, that’s partly dependent on whether those people are abusing those advantages; but ideally we ought to be admiring other people in their excellencies (most of all God Most High) and not admiring ourselves.

The only safe way to see the crown we wear on our brows, is to see it reflected in the eyes of those who love us–and then only in glimpses when we aren’t looking for it. (Whenever the one I love the most used to compliment me, my ego shrank to a single point too sharp for me to look at; I was much more comfortable admiring her, rejoicing especially in the ways she excelled me.)

Otherwise the only safe thing to do with our crowns is to throw them at the feet of God, as the Son surrenders to the Father receiving love and life from the Father–so that God shall come to be all in all!

Some of you will remember this from the final page of CoJ. (Those who’ve read it will know the context. :mrgreen: But the principle remains the same even without the context…)

TV (Bobx3)! Wow, it’s hard to keep up with all this!

When I said LFW provides a convincing basis to emphasize one’s superiority, you say, Yes, but pride is sin, So “why would it be necessary for one to” do that? But I’m not arguing that sin is good or morally obligatory. Just that we have a bent toward it, which appears bolstered by theories that feed a rationale for comparitive pride. And that that might be an encouragement to at least question such a paradigm.

On the merits of “others boasting about our particular wisdom,” I suspect it would be safer for them to praise the wisdom of God, the bestower of all true wisdom.

Tom, thanks for the great van Inwagen link. I enjoyed reading him in a philosophy class at Regent College last summer. We’re united that neither view is “obviously convincing!” Though I personally find the nature of LFW and contrary choice harder to grasp (more “mysterious”?) than Skinnerism.

You say, ‘sufficiently informed’ means sufficient to rationally make either of both alternative choices. But that seems to describe “ambiguous” information, which would commonly be perceived by definition, as ‘insufficient.’

E.g. I agree that Eve doesn’t have experience or grounds to ‘know’ if Adam’s assertions about God and what is best are “reliable.” Pursuing greater knowledge appears to her to be a plausible (rational) good. So I fully agree that her lack of ability to be sure provides her ample “room” to err and “doubt.” But I don’t see why “her knowledge was sufficient to the ought of trusting God,” such that she is the fully accountable explanation for the result. It seems to me that the situation’s ambiguous information accounts for much of this outcome. Then, what she fundamentally needs is not a more responsible internal ‘choice-maker,’ but enough pedagogical experience to be more sure about what the truth is. I.e. the reality of a world with insufficient information could lead one to say, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Thus, we agree that we need to be “solidified in the good,” and thus “less free” in the LFW sense. And that the desireable (“higher”) freedom is to be (like Mother Teresa) “incapable of a wrong choice.” Our views of moral development seem identical! “Increasingly settled accurate perceptions are the road,” and the “need is to perceive the truth about the nature of reality.” Amen!

The catch is that you say such freedom results from being “free” (in a lower sense?), but I have no idea what that term means (except absence of external constraints; but van Inwagen is right, freedom can’t be a negative concept). I fully agree that relationship and “character” must be formed by experiential participation that moves from ego-centered ignorance toward solidified knowledge of truth that frees us (and as you say “shapes our identity”). But I wouldn’t call this beginning stage “freedom,” reserving that term for what you call “higher freedom.”

I hear you to say that providing “absolute certitude” would illicitly “make the choice for us.” I have agreed that certitude is not how our present formation can be experienced as pedagogical, but I’m not sure that it is fundamentally illicit. Rather it is what we most need and will ultimately receive.

You seem to prefer calling our initial condition “free,” so that you can say getting to “higher freedom” is a “result” of our being “responsible” for that journey. My inclination would be that while we ‘participate’ in the journey, God is responsible for the ultimate result, that is what your rightly call “real freedom.” When I look at humanity’s vulnerability and irrational blindness, I suspect that He is the architect of the saving journey and deserves more of the credit that we want to give Him. (But maybe we’re just quibbling over what deserves to be called “free.”)

Buddy,

The rest of us mess with confusing philosophical formulations to try to make sense of how things work. But you have a grand testimony! Thanks for sharing your expeience. I resonate with it.

Bob: When I said LFW provides a convincing basis to emphasize one’s superiority, you say, Yes, but pride is sin, So “why would it be necessary for one to” do that? But I’m not arguing that sin is good or morally obligatory. Just that we have a bent toward it, which appears bolstered by theories that feed a rationale for comparitive pride. And that that might be an encouragement to at least question such a paradigm.

Tom: Again all I can say is that we judge a position not in isolation from all qualifications but based upon how well it fits all other qualifications. LFW is a piece of the puzzle, a theory about a particular slice of the whole (namely, agency). It doesn’t presuppose other beliefs about God existing (or not), or the nature of the creator-created distinction (or its absence), or the unconditional love of God for all (or conditional election), or any of these crucial beliefs to which LFW must be related before being judged. So saying that LFW (by itself) provides a convincing basis or rationale for boasting makes the mistake of assuming that essential to LFW is the view that we are not unconditionally loved by God; that is, it picks sides on other related beliefs and judges LFW accordingly.

But this can just as easily be done with determinism. I can isolate the all-determining decree of God from other crucial beliefs regarding this decree, namely, I can isolate it from the belief that the decree is free and unconditional and then claim that divine determinism provides a rationale for boasting. And even if one were to qualify divine determinism as entailing unconditionality (which it clearly doesn’t), I could then claim that determinism provides a rationale for acquitting sinners and convicting God of evil.

Surely, Bob, truth is best served by our taking all the relative claims into account before judging what a particular theory ‘entails’ or ‘inherently’ provides a rationale for.

True, LFW has to be qualified by the unconditional love of God as grounds for our worth to preclude our supposing that our free choices grounds our greater worth. But so does determinism have to be qualified by the unconditionality of the decree to preclude its be taken as a basis upon which to boast for having been elected. Auggy wants to insist that divine determinism per se ENTAILS the unconditionality of the decree, but it’s impossible to show that “God’s determining all things” entails such unconditionality. It just doesn’t. Molinists (Middle Knowledge proponents) are straight up determinists (i.e., God alone decides which actual world gets instantiated) BUT they believe possible worlds are determined by the truth of so-called counterfactuals of creaturely freedom (what creatures WOULD freely do in this or that situation). So determinism CAN be conditional in a sense Calvin would never have countenanced.

Bob: You say, ‘sufficiently informed’ means sufficient to rationally make either of both alternative choices. But that seems to describe “ambiguous” information, which would commonly be perceived by definition, as “insufficient.”

Tom: But ‘insufficient’ for what? I think you’d answer, “Insufficient to guarantee choosing rightly.” But that’s just the issue. In a world where agents have to develop morally and participate in shaping their characters (because that character contributes to defining them as irreducible and unique persons in relation to God), what has to be avoided are arrangements that guarantee an agent’s choice (i.e., guarantees our ‘development’ one way or the other). The terms “sufficient” and “insufficient” are just comparative terms that measure means ‘relative’ to ends. If the end God determines requires LFW as a means, then what’s sufficient or insufficient is what guarantees a rational choice of either option and not what precludes one option and guarantees the other.

Bob: E.g. I agree that Eve doesn’t have experience or grounds to ‘know’ if Adam’s assertions about God and what is best are “reliable.” Pursuing greater knowledge appears to her to be a plausible (rational) good. So I fully agree that her lack of ability to be sure provides her ample “room” to err and “doubt”…

Tom: Yes!

Bob: …But I don’t see why “her knowledge was sufficient to the ought of trusting God,” such that she is the fully accountable explanation for the result. It seems to me that the situation’s ambiguous information accounts for much of this outcome.

Tom: Well, the ambiguity does account for much of the outcome. But had Eve chosen rightly the same ambiguity would provide the same account of the outcome. That is presumably what it means to be rationally free to choose between morally significant options.

Bob: Then, what she fundamentally needs is not a more responsible internal ‘choice-maker,’ but enough pedagogical experience to be more sure about what the truth is…

Tom: But how do you posit the pedagogical experience sufficient to guarantee right choices for finite creatures who by definition have a beginning to their experience and journey? You can’t. If we HAVE to develop into the mature sort of partners God wants, then we can’t start out being those partners. We have to mature into that calling.

Bob: Thus, we agree that we need to be “solidified in the good,” and thus “less free” in the LFW sense. And that the desireable (“higher”) freedom is to be (like Mother Teresa) “incapable of a wrong choice.” Our views of moral development seem identical! “Increasingly settled accurate perceptions are the road,” and the “need is to perceive the truth about the nature of reality.” Amen!

Tom: OK! So what’s the catch?

Bob: The catch is that you say such freedom results from being “free” (in a lower sense?)…

Tom: Just free in the libertarian sense.

Bob: …but I have no idea what that term means (except absence of external constraints; but van Inwagen is right, freedom can’t be a negative concept).

Tom: van Inwagen is a libertarian, remember. So he doesn’t find the notion itself meaningless. What he struggles to find is an account of the ‘causal nexus’ (i.e., a positive account of HOW it works). But one can have reasons sufficient for believing LFW is the case without having an exhaustive positive account of what the whole truth is. Analogously, nobody can account positively of quantum mechanics, but we have enough evidence to assume there’s some explanation that accounts for the indeterminacy that other factors require us to posit. You don’t need an full and positive account of indeterminacy at the quantum level to be justified in positing indeterminacy at the quantum level.

Bob: I fully agree that relationship and “character” must be formed by experiential participation that moves from ego-centered ignorance toward solidified knowledge of truth that frees us (and as you say “shapes our identity”).

Tom: That sounds positively libertarian! But you think this participation can be entirely determined by God. God orchestrates the minutia of its every movement?

Bob: But I wouldn’t call this beginning stage “freedom,” reserving that term for what you call “higher freedom.”

Tom: Let’s call it something else. It’s doesn’t matter. How about ‘power to the contrary’? What’s important is that we also want to avoid saying God simply steps into and determines or decides what course a person’s development takes. We want to say this is where creatures participate in self-formation. Yes? No?

Bob: I hear you to say that providing “absolute certitude” would illicitly “make the choice for us.” I have agreed that certitude is not how our present formation can be experienced as pedagogical, but I’m not sure that it is fundamentally illicit. Rather it is what we most need and will ultimately receive.

Tom: I agree. Perceiving reality so certainly and unfailing that sin isn’t possible can’t be an illegitimate form of personal agency since (presumably) this is exactly the sort of agency God possesses. So it’s a good thing. But we agree that finite creatures have to develop into this same compatibilistic form of agency. So the question is how best to articulate the nature of personal agency and choice prior to our becoming sufficiently solidified in the good. We need a meaningful and consistent account of ‘choice’ (‘self formation’, ‘habituation’) that leads to our being compatibilistically free (or just free if you like) but doesn’t start out there. BUT we also don’t want the account to simple be: Oh, well, God simply determines everything about the journey.

Bob: You seem to prefer calling our initial condition “free,” so that you can say getting to “higher freedom” is a “result” of our being “responsible” for that journey. My inclination would be that while we ‘participate’ in the journey, God is responsible for the ultimate result, that is what your rightly call “real freedom.”

Tom: But God cannot ALONE be responsible for the ultimate result IF the ultimate result is gotten to via a process of development in which we participate. What’s our participation in the development if God determines it? That would reduce ‘participation’ to mere secondary causation and instrumentality. Alas, I can’t go there.

What I hear you saying is that unless an account of creaturely participation can be given that consistently gives God glory for the end result and doesn’t provide creatures a rationale for boasting, you’re not buying. I totally understand that. I really think I’ve offered reasons to assuage the fear that synergy of any kind either robs God of glory or empowers creatures in their boasting. But it might be that some have a notion of God’s “receiving glory” such that nothing short of unconditional divine determination will do. In that case, one doesn’t really need development of character or creaturely participation at all. Those notions are only required if an understanding of choice and agency is assumed that precludes the determination of choice by divine decree.

Tom

Tom, in passing, did you grasp van Inwagen? Pages 1-4 were convincing: ‘free’ can’t be a negative concept. But 5 on lost me. Mid 5’s assertion. “The obstacles to performing an action that renders one able to perform it are those that one is unable to overcome,” sounds illogical to me. Then he reasons from how physically undetermined angels make choices, as if that would be clearer to me than how human choices work. Yet this whole section is to bolster his argument that “metaphysical freedom must be a contradiction in terms” (my own personal instinct).

Yet suddenly he asserts that though some deny it, “everyone” knows “we are certainly all condemned to believe we are free.” The final argument (10) is that we couldn’t try to make decisions unless we were convinced that it could go either way. Then he says that if we’re right about being metaphysically free, then what he has demonstrated about both determinism and indeterminism being impossible must be wrong. And thus after 30 years, he is “clueless” about how to explain the “mystery” of our experience. Ironically, you know that that was the very word I used to describe my bottomline sense. yet my inclination, instead of his arbitrarily selecting one of his premises as wrong, is that the solution is more likely our overconfidence in being free, as an illusory misunderstanding about how things work.

Of course I may see his substance as gibberish because I certainly am not as philosophically bright as many. Yet what can I do but assume that if it makes no sense to my best efforts, maybe it’s because it makes no sense? I can’t just submit to what someone else claims to know. But maybe you can present his argument more simply.

Bob,

I totally agree that much about freedom (libertarian or compatibilism) is mysterious. Part of my own spiritual and intellectual journey has meant learning to live with this. We do the best we can to understand, and we try to harmonize the evidence of personal experience, reason and intuition, tradition, etc. to nail it all down. But much of what we’d like to nail down keeps flapping in the wind!

There’s certainly enough here to keep us from boasting! Cotton-pickin’ finitude! :imp:

For me, it’s true that a good bit of why I’m a libertarian (after the intuitions and experience of freedom, making sense of the process of deliberation and choice, moral responsibility, etc.) is that in spite of its problems it still seems like the best theory out there. That’s not a ‘negative’ argument for LFW. We all do this. We eliminate options and narrow the possibilities by eliminating what doesn’t work. Straight up theological determinism (of the Calvinist sort) is out the question for me. I mean, if I have to take a leap, then believing in LFW without being able to provide a positive explanation of the inner workings of that ever mysterious ‘causal nexus’ is less troublesome than believing God unconditionally determines everything that occurs.

But when it comes to the objections to LFW based on the absence of any convincing positive account of it (I’m thinking of the standard arguments that it’s incoherent and reduces to mere randomness and so isn’t a theory of ‘choice’ at all), these are for me all mitigated by the larger fact in my view that God’s choice to create the world was libertarian. My views on divine aseity and self-sufficiency, the necessary fullness of divine being, the contingency of created being, and the increasing influence upon me of Orthodox thinking on the God-world relationship have all combined to make it now impossible for me to agree that God ‘necessarily’ creates and is so ‘necessarily’ and always related to some world, so that a ‘necessary’ feature of God’s essential life is ‘being related to some world’. That has consequences I can’t embrace. So in the end for me, LFW can’t be an impossible view of choice simly because other features or attributes of God entail God’s having freely (in the libertarian sense) created.

Tom

Buddy,

That was a fine testimony! Thanks!

I will note, however, that it is only a testimony against having God’s level of free will. None of us here are arguing for that; we all know we are involuntarily constrained and affected by circumstances, including often in our behaviors.

Nevertheless, as a child of God you still had some freedom of the will. Otherwise you would have simply reacted automatically to whatever happened to be stimulating you internally and/or externally at the moment (and indeed there would have been no ‘you’ at all, personally, to be suffering.) You wouldn’t have even wanted to be able to fight against the impulse; much less would you have been able to fight against the impulse, with even partial success.

Nor would you have been able to turn to God and throw yourself into the mercy (and judgment, for that matter) of His hand.

Those are also facts of your account; and I entirely affirm it is true you shouldn’t take pride in those facts. It might even be better, usually, not to dwell on those facts.

But neither, in a strict accounting of the situation, should they be ignored. Especially for gratitude’s sake, to God. He saved you from your situation, but He also gave you the capability to cooperate (for better as well as for worse)–and you also testified to that cooperation, even if (in humility) you didn’t take credit for it.

Anyway, the technical discussion here is about a strict accounting of the situation, so to speak. :slight_smile: But practical examples are absolutely welcome and useful! :smiley: We ought to have more of them for this discussion, I think.

Hi Tom!

I’m puzzling on why I remain uneasy about your excellent points. I say: I experience LFW bolstering pointing to one’s superior choices as evidence that one is a superior person. You say: That ignores that both LFW and Determinism need to also posit unconditionality, and thus you unfairly isolate LFW from this qualification that God equally loves all (which I agree is how worth should be measured). Still, it seems, if God is unconditionally ‘responsible’ for my path toward redemption, the illogic of any thinking that this outcome makes me superior seems plain to me (as exhibited in Buddy’s perception). Yet it seems easier for those who believe that they are significantly ‘responsible’ for their outcome, to think that it is logical to assume that this makes them comparitively superior, even while granting that God’s unconditional love is toward all.

You appear to respond: But since LFW is the reality, we must convince them that unconditional love means that being ‘responsible’ for their own outcome doesn’t count anyway with inevitably comparing themselves to those who make inferior choices. More power to you! But I suspect the driving difference is that I’m less convinced that LFW exists.

Sure, I agree that we have ‘sufficient’ information if you define that as enough to rationally err (or even sometimes to get it right). That’s semantic, and on how development works in the existence God has placed us in, we are remarkably similar! But I don’t see that any of this makes a case for LFW. Van Inwagen admits that he’s “clueless” on how to make sense of LFW. But it’s sufficient to say, “Everybody knows that we are condemned to believe in it.” That seems to abandon arguing the substance. Isn’t it weird to just insist that those who argue LFW doesn’t exist “know” that they are wrong?

My own impression is that many in the sciences don’t honestly think LFW is a “known” reality. They think the evidence points to an existence that operates with regular cause and effect, and that it points toward human choices as explainable by heredity, conditioning, learning, etc. How can a modern philosopher dismissively say, everyone knows they are wrong?

Though religious LFWer’s say it is illicit to think God would determine what people do, or interfere with our ‘freedom,’ many think the Bible sometimes presents God as precisely determining people’s course and the whole outcome of the universe (e.g. Rom. 9:10-21; of course this issue could be amplified and debated with numerous texts). If a Biblical assumption about how things operate is consistent with a growing modern view of people in relevant fields, then there is an impressive basis on which to question LFW.

Thus, our difference is not simply about what is worthy of being called “freedom,” but about what your ‘power to the contrary’ means. You say that it rules out that “God determines a person’s course of development.” So you ask, do I agree that we “participate” in self-formation? Yes, I used that very (but fuzzy) word. But I don’t see that it means that God can’t be ‘responsible’ for the ultimate result (a place you say you can’t go).

I sense you assume that my alternative is hard determinism. I have no idea about such mysteries. Talbott may be right that God does not ‘orchestrate’ everything, and many things are indeterministic chance, even though the situation of our formation is bound to produce much error. You rightly say the question is what our “agency” means. You admit that the best sort is to perceive reality with a deep certainty. But you believe that getting there requires LFW now. But it’s just not obvious to me that God cannot form us in a’ participative’ context where God is ultimately responsible for our outcome and enlightenment. Since observation suggests to me that that the world works in that fashion, I run with *its’*mysteries, instead of the ones you embrace, since you perceive that LFW is how things actually work.

Addendum on today’s note: I too say would say that God ‘freely’ created. But I’m afraid I’m lost when you say that LFW thus must be the way the world works because of how what you know about God’s aseity, fullness, etc., as well as creation’s contingency, means that God’s choice to create needed to be libertarian. I’m not only too simple minded to know that. I don’t even have any idea of what this is that I don’t know.

Home sick today, so I get to play on discussion boards!

Bob: I’m puzzling on why I remain uneasy about your excellent points.

Tom: Original sin? (Had to say that! Haha :wink: )

Bob: I say: I experience LFW bolstering pointing to one’s superior choices as evidence that one is a superior person. You say: That ignores that both LFW and Determinism need to also posit unconditionality…

Tom: Well, what I would first say is that given LFW’s place alongside other things that I believe, I experience LFW as God’s gift of empowerment to enjoy relationship with him and I’m filled with a sense of gratitude that something as inherently worthless as me is loved and valued by somebody as infinitely valuable as God; and so (this is crucial) my possessing (not my exercising) LFW tells me how highly God prizes human being and how intent he is upon our relating to him in love. In other words, what keeps me from boasting (among other things) is just a proper understanding of what a ‘gift’ in fact is; that our worth and value are demonstrated in God’s offer of himself, in his invitation, and not in our response to it. That’s why the choice to ‘accept’ a free offer can’t be grounds for boasting about the possession of the gift. One has to misrelate to the gift and to one’s own self as a free agent in order to construe ‘acceptance’ of a gift as a rationale for boasting. But this is all evident if people will calmly consider the fact that our very existence is grounded in and derived from God’s free choice to create (the creator-created distinction) and that the same opportunity we had to answer God’s invitation will be made available to all. What’s left to boast about?

At this point in my life the thought that God would endow us with a share of ‘say-so’ because it’s necessary to our loving participation with him and our personal becoming in spite of the risks involved just tells me how highly he loves and values our participation and unique personal identities. But that’s all established in the offer of the gift and the possibility of our accepting it. It doesn’t become true ‘because’ we accept it. I know how suspicious many are of LFW, but it has to be perceived and evaluated alongside all we believe about God.

Bob: You appear to respond: But since LFW is the reality, we must convince them that unconditional love means that being ‘responsible’ for their own outcome doesn’t count anyway with inevitably comparing themselves to those who make inferior choices.

Tom: I’d actually respond by arguing that our evaluation of LFW must bring LFW into relationship with all else that we believe about God. This ‘fit’ (or lack of it) should inform our conclusion about whether or not we possess LFW. I don’t deny that it’s true that LFW can motivate people to boasting, but only because we believe falsely about other important things.

I feel at bit as if the argument against LFW based on boasting is like an argument against a particular line of math in a very long equation. This particular line is where we observe things go wrong in the equation’s outcome, so we call into question the correctness of the particular line. “Something’s gone wrong here,” we observe and so we conclude that the culprit and cause of the equation’s failure is this particular line. We throw it out or we change it, when in fact there’s nothing wrong with the mechanics or workings of that particular line. The math is good. The mistakes were made much earlier in the equation (inaccurate assumptions from the beginning, so that the equation is bound to bleed out this weakness at some point) but the consequences of those mistakes aren’t observed by us until later. So we blame what we immediately observe without asking where the real mistake is.

Bob: Sure, I agree that we have ‘sufficient’ information if you define that as enough to rationally err (or even sometimes to get it right). That’s semantic, and on how development works in the existence God has placed us in, we are remarkably similar! But I don’t see that any of this makes a case for LFW. Van Inwagen admits that he’s “clueless” on how to make sense of LFW. But it’s sufficient to say, “Everybody knows that we are condemned to believe in it.” That seems to abandon arguing the substance. Isn’t it weird to just insist that those who argue LFW doesn’t exist “know” that they are wrong?

Tom: It is. I think van Inwagen might be expressing his frustration a bit!

Bob: I sense you assume that my alternative is hard determinism. I have no idea about such mysteries.

Tom: But you understand the issues extremely well! Flattery will get you everywhere!

I’ve run into some differences on the terms, but I believe hard determinists admit that God determines everything (i.e., they’re monergists) and that this isn’t really compatible with our being free or responsible in any significant sense of the word but ‘So what?’ God is God and he’s got the power so he can do what he wants. You don’t hear hard determinists saying “God loves all equally and unconditionally” or “God creates us to partner with him as persons” or the like. Wouldn’t your position be soft determinism? You’re as much a monergist as hard determinists, but you add that such determination is in fact compatible (thus, compatibilism) with our being responsible for our choices. But unlike any other soft determinist I’ve met, you also believe that God equally and unconditionally loves all, which would appear utterly meaningless to me were you not a universalist.

Bob: But it’s just not obvious to me that God cannot form us in a ‘participative’ context where God is ultimately responsible for our outcome and enlightenment. Since observation suggests to me that that the world works in that fashion, I run with its mysteries, instead of the ones you embrace, since you perceive that LFW is how things actually work.

Tom: We mean different things by ‘participation’! But we’ll toast to these debates when we get to heaven and laugh about them—if I don’t first make it out to one of those BBQ’s Auggy was talking about earlier!

Blessings,
Tom

Bob: Addendum on today’s note: I too say would say that God ‘freely’ created. But I’m afraid I’m lost when you say that LFW thus must be the way the world works because of how what you know about God’s aseity, fullness, etc., as well as creation’s contingency, means that God’s choice to create needed to be libertarian.

Tom: You’re right, Bob. I couldn’t argue that since God was libertarianly free to create we must therefore be libertarianly free. That doesn’t follow. But I wasn’t arguing that, so I should clarify. My bad.

I was only arguing that IF it’s true that God is libertarianly free when he determines to create, then it has to be the case that libertarian freedom is possible—i.e., it’s not incoherent to suppose, which is what many opponents of LFW argue. They’ll say LFW is an impossible theory of choice and that there can be no such thing as LFW. But if God is thought to be free in this sense when he creates, it can’t be that LFW is impossible. That’s all I was arguing. But you’re right. God’s being free in the libertarian sense on occasion doesn’t itself mean we are ever free in this sense. But it does mean that we cannot dismiss the claim that we are free in this sense because LFW is strictly speaking impossible.

The second thing I was trying to communicate was that though we may not be able to convincingly and positively account for the causal nexus—the inner ontological workings—of LFW, we may have other very good grounds for supposing that LFW is at least metaphysically possible (against those who argue that so long as we can’t provide a positive account of LFW it must be considered an impossibility). And those other good grounds (for me) would be all those reasons we have for believing that the necessity of God’s life entails a self-sufficient fullness which precludes any necessity or need for God to create or be related to anything outside Godself, in which case God’s choice to create HAS to be free in the sense libertarians mean.

It did seem to me at times that you were arguing on the assumption that LFW is an impossible mode of choice since no positive account of its workings existed. You seemed to repeatedly say you couldn’t even ‘conceive’ it meaningfully or imagine what LFW would look like. But if you grant that God’s choice to create was a libertarian choice, then you concede LFW’s possibility and meaningfulness, and not only its possibility, but in God’s case its actuality, in which case van Inwagen’s cluelessness really doesn’t matter. Believe me, given the debate over LFW, that’s saying a lot.

Tom

TGB,
Could you explain how randomness is not inherent to LFW? That to me seems a given.

I’ll point you to some good resources, Auggy, if you like. Thomas Pink’s Free Will: A Very Short Introduction comes to mind because it’s cheap! But he’s got The Will and Human Action and The Psychology of Freedom, both expensive. Robert Kane is still though to be the premier libertaraian philosopher. There are other good libertarian thinkers too. Oh, there’s Timoth O’Connor’s Persons and Causes: The Metaphysics of Free Will.

But your request is a request for the sort of positive account of how libertarian choice obtains on a deep ontological level. There are plausible accounts out there, but nothing that brings the debate to an end.

But it’s difficult to assume that a view is false because it leaves some things unexplained. We shouldn’t ignore that by all means. Let’s figure it into the total case for LFW (or for monergism, or whatever). A theory should explain somethings, and enough of the important things to warrant consideration. But the same failure to account positively for what’s claimed applies (I think) to determinists who want to hold person’s morally accountable for their choices. I would “assume” that such persons are not to be blamed, held accountable, or otherwise punished for choices that were in their entirety determined by factors antecedent to the will of the person making the choice. But I’m told by compatiblists that I should not assume this, that compatibilism is a mystery, and that we have other good reasons to suppose that we are, nonetheless, determined in all our choices by antecedent facts. So you say that we are determined and we are responsible, as much as is left unexplained about moral accountability by this claim. A libertarian is likely to say that we are libertarianly free and responsible, as much as is left unexplained about libertarian free will by this claim.

I take it, Auggy, that you do not think that God’s choice to create was libertarian (since that would make creation a random event in your view). So God’s choice to create is as much a necessary and essential feature of God as other necessary attributes of God. God cannot exist without some creation to relate to. That’s what you’re saying. It’s not an unpopular view. I just wanted to make sure that’s what you were saying.

Tom

Tom, Deja Vu!

You repeat, if our existence is sheer gift, “what’s left to brag about?” Usually, it’s about what we think we did with that gift. Why couldn’t one agree that God freely loves us and insures our worth, but think that making better choices is a cogent way of determining who among the valued has displayed superiority? What is “falsely believed” and illogical?

Yes, "soft determinism may be how I see the world functioning, and what I was supporting by citing Scripture and science as coherent with it.

The only counter argument I’m hearing is (1) FLW would be most coherent with God having “libertarian freedom.” And you seem to argue, if God didn’t ‘need’ to create, the creation must have been his LFW choice. But instead of evaluating how life functions by looking at evidence on that, aren’t you basing it on something even more inpenetrable: my grasp of how ‘God’ functions? How would I know what it means for God to ‘need’ or not need to do something, or what definition of FLW fits God?

(2) You say if God has FLW, then it is metaphysically coherent that we could have it. But how would I know that what is created can be whatever God is? Maybe Creator and creature are of a quite different order.

TGB,
I don’t know anything about God needing to create and God choosing to create or what God does in human terms. The question of how many creations outside of angelic and humanity boggles my mind since I think in terms of atomic evens (cause and reaction). So I don’t know nor claim anything except what seems logical to human reason.

Bob’s question makes sense to me. Like I said, I still don’t see that pointing the finger at Determinism gets LFW off the hook.

But I agree with you that I can’t prove Det. any more than I can disprove LFW.

Now as it applies to protestant theology (Calvinism and Arminian theology):
I do still see that LFW (Arminian) inherits the weakness - which I don’t think you’re disagreeing - and is magnified by the fact that they hold an inconsistent view of unconditional love. Where Calvinism’s determinism has built in defense mechanism from such a defect. I don’t know that I can understand anything else because it’s so freaking deep that my eye balls bleed.

One last note I’ll ask you to comment on is my response to the libertarian charge:
If Determinism makes God the author of sin then LFW makes Sinners the an author of righteousness. (self genereating faith - which you stated you didn’t prefer to put it that way).

Aug