I’ve gotta go with Jeff on this, for the reasons he gave.
I think you missed the point He was saying, that the (any,all) chastisement/scourging all took place at the cross. That humanity, in Christ, has received all they are going to receive. It is finished.
You may not like the position, or agree with it. But the position is as valid (or maybe more so) than your own. Both positions recognize chastisement, But his shows the true love you so eagerly speak of but seem to not be able to swallow. Christ, the last Adam, took our sin and now we are no longer separate from God.
Isn’t it Good News 
all condemnation was removed at the cross, not all chastisement.
I don’t think you have to worry about mankind living under fear of correcting chastisement since mankind’s will is to avoid God at all costs. But that doesn’t mean God can’t inform His children what He is going to do to correct mankind of their errant ways. Revelation is replete with this.
The problem as I see it is mankind blasphemes God because the so-called “church” teaching that God is going to eternally torture them. But if mankind knew that God is love and is going to lovingly chasten them as a father does his child, it might go a long way toward healing the rift.
Here is the passage you quoted partially above:
“Isa 53:5 Yet He was wounded because of our transgressions, and crushed because of our depravities. The discipline for our welfare was on Him, and by His welts there is healing for us.” The above does not say that if He was disciplined, we won’t be. It is just a statement concerning Him that for our welfare He was disciplined. It doesn’t say we won’t be disciplined. Obviously, the Jews who turned away from their faith due to the kingdom being set aside in their day will be severely chastened.
If no one is a bastard child and if we are all connected to God as our Father, then He should and does discipline us as sons. If He doesn’t discipline us, then we ARE bastards. Therefore He does discipline us because we are not bastards. Get it?
To be chastened is not to be left outside the work of the cross. Like I said before, AFTER Christ died, the Corinthians were adversely judged so as not to be condemned with the world. Some died and some got very sick due to God’s judgment upon them. And yet, it does say the world is condemned and it was stated so AFTER Christ died for all mankind.
Paul even goes so far as to tell us that the believer will appear before the bema of Christ and be judged as to how they built upon the foundation. He said some will be saved yet thus AS through fire. It won’t be pleasant but it will yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness which all judgment does.
This was written after Christ died for mankind:
Heb_12:5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him."
Heb_12:7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
Heb_12:8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons."
Heb_12:11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently*** it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness*** to those exercised through it."
So you don’t believe Christ is going to come back and set up His kingdom and send certain nations into eonian chastening according to Matthew 25:31-46? Is He going to just let them all off the hook?
And what about Revelation? What about all the chastening judgments? Is He going to tickle them with a feather? Is He going to say “Okay, hey, everyone, no matter what, can come into the New City Jerusalem. Even the unclean. Even the liar.” Is that what it says? Is God and Christ going to do battle with the beast or tickle it?
Christ already returned in 70ad just like he said he would. All scripture is fulfilled. Your lust for vengeance is astounding. And your admission of Christ’s inability to completely take our sin away is even more astounding. 
I have never been so astounded 
BTW, yes I lean to the full preterist interpretation of scripture.
Sorry to hear about that.
Well if Christ came back in 70 A.D. and He had all those men, women and children killed in Israel by the Romans, and this was done after He died for them, it seems your lust for vengeance is equal to mine.
Like I said before, Christ died for our sins, He didn’t die to keep us from needful, loving correction.
Chad et. al. - I think that we would all agree that the Father chastening every son/daughter for their good - to develop character, learn to love more, resist temptation etc. is a good thing? If we are not talking soteriology, as such, but rather the cure of the soul, a Pastoral discipline etc?
Of course, Fatherly chastisement is not always needed - we just have to step up and imitate our father, as a beloved child imitates his father.
I’m talking about Christian character development in our moral life - not a doctrine of justification or anything like that.
Are we agreed on that?
Good thoughts and yes, I can agree to that.
Oh I agree Dave, but we’re possibly mixing apples and taco’s here.
But that might work too, I know a place that serves peanut butter on their burgers.
It was my thinking that the thread was getting a little mixed - up, just wanted to separate out that part of the thread having to do with character development into Christ-likeness from the soteriology/eschatology part of the thread.
Yum, you made me hungry!!
Interesting, Chad. Since I just came back from Taco Bell. I did check their menu thoroughly today. I just didn’t see apples, on the menu. So I couldn’t mix them. But they did have a hot sauce, in different degrees of hotness. And I like the Diablo one (i.e. the newest and hottest), which as you know, is Spanish for Devil. And there is a wine from Chile, where the winery has Diablo in the name. Historically, to keep people from stealing it. 
Not let’s sing a song about Taco Bell. 
or
youtube.com/watch?v=-uwY3sjqYX0
I’m not sure how peanut butter would taste on burgers, though. 
A question came to mind, though. A few years ago, I heard a sermon at the local Episcopal Church, by an associate pastor. He said before he began the sermon, that he was a universalist. But he also added, he doesn’t know how it will occur, but he believes God will save all. I’m sure if you pressed him outside service hours, he would share how he thinks it might occur.
And that’s what’s puzzling to me. Folks here think they know how it will occur, rather then how it might occur. It’s almost like I might hypothetically go to a tea party. And at the tea party, there are clergy, from a variety of church traditions: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, non-denominational, etc. And they each tell me how I will be saved, rather then how I might be saved.
Kind of like being at a tea party, for the Holy Fools tradition. And we talk about role models to emulate. And I say we must (rather than might) look to Stan Laurel, Harpo Marx and Curly Howard, as proper role models to emulate - for the Holy Fools tradition.
Now I **might **feel if universalism is true, it will really unfold, as a combination of the Left Behind, Christian book/video series, and the Walking Dead zombie series on AMC. Where God takes the saved immediately to heaven. Those who have some redeeming elements, remain on earth as humans - during the tribulation. The rest turn to zombies. And the humans have to battle both zombies and bad people - controlling things. Until Christ comes and rescues everyone - including the zombies. It’s actually a combination of 3 theological positions: Hell as Exile (i.e. Joshua Ryan Butler) and P-Zombie (becoming subhuman - N. T. Wright), with univeralism as the end point. But to make it complete, the same thing that happens on earth, would also happen in Hades
And it solves the free will problem quite nicely - for universalism. The best (humans) will make the right choice - God’s way. And the P-Zombies (the worst), are neither with “will” or are “free”. So when they are restored, there’s no free will for them to worry about - as P-Zombies. Problem solved.
or
youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0
So back to the Anglican clergy member. He thinks and feels universalism is true and he probably has some ideas - how it might take place. But folks here often have ideas, on how it will take place.
Anyone care to comment on this or enlighten me, as to why that is? 
Hi Randy, actually I will bite on your questions, though unfortunately, not as a theologian or even a serious bible student, of which there are many around here.
I have no Idea what will happen, as in your Episcopal associate pastor, but at some point I think all of us have to make the decision weather we believe** Christ’s work is actual or conditional**. When I say decision, I mean as in ‘understanding’ and not compulsory for something to take place.
I have no Idea what will happen to me when I die, but my contention is that from my view, Christ has me and all of humanity covered. No BS No maybe…
This will take a bit of paradigm shift, but maybe we have to think of a God who initially created us, so there must be some kind of attachment there, and so if we look at the parameters that God has set in the old covenant, Israel, and thus humanity falls woefully short, but if we look at the prophets foretelling us what God WILL DO, and we understand those things to be Christ, then we see a different sort of God, a God of love and mercy.
Paul talks about the first Adam and the Last Adam.
The preterist take is that all is fulfilled. I tend to agree with that, but I maintain we should try to understand that God did the work.
I understand Dave’s post, (though I think he might have been acting more as a mediator than anything, AND I APPRECIATE IT BROTHER please don’t get mad…) but we have to ask once again Is Christ’s atonement actual or conditional? The Idea of correction in this life, I totally agree with, it works with the possibility and my take on providence, but to say we are going to incur punishment on the other side… I would just have to see the biblical position.
I know it is a leap to thinks someone could be forgiven for untold sins… But I maintain that is what Christ is all about. And all humanity will benefit from what He has accomplished.
Sorry about the rant. 
Chad
Yep methinks you might be right
Well as I see it… this is no less the same type of sleight of hand inferred above by Jeff or DaveB in that advocates of the so-called universalist church’s position or teaching on eternal (aiōviōn) correction (chastisement), i.e., such correction must continue or last as long as and be of equivalent degree as that which the so-called universalist church teaches eternal (aiōviōn) life lasts, as per Mt 25:46. IOW… IF there be an END to said “correction” THEN there MUST be an END to said “life” IF said aiōviōn is applied with genuine consistency; as you can see THAT poses a problem THIS position!
There is NO legitimate exegetical means for changing NOR moving ANYONE FROM said aiōviōn judgment/correction (chastisement) UNLESS you can likewise change the nature of said aiōviōn life… you can’t; and THIS IMO is the hugely deficient fault of universalism that plays this INCONSISTENT “chastisement” card, and how universalists’ and others holding this position can’t see this is beyond me.
Such chastisement is what pantelism views as transpiring throughout that 40yr period AD30-70 (a biblical generation, analogous of Stephen’s “the congregation in the wilderness”) where those being called (elect) into the service of God (witnesses to Israel and to whomever else would receive their message) paid the price of persecution and perfection (Act 14:22).
As I understand it, one key to remember… we are reading someone else’s mail i.e., none of this was written directly to us, certainly for our benefit and all who will grasp it, BUT NOT TO US; and thus to drag these things OUT OF their biblical setting and context and then superimposing OUR modernity back ONTO it is to read OURSELVES back into the text, and in so doing reading the text wrong. The question we need to be asking ourselves is “what would these things have meant to those to whom such things were spoken/written?”
Folks need to read this a few times 
Davo - did NOT realize I was engaging in sleight-of-hand
The ‘old’ way of talking about the XN life was ‘salvation, then sanctification’. Those that taught it were convinced that following the NT patterns of discipleship, such as laid out by Paul and others to the congregations they were responsible for - thinking, I believe, that since it was not possible for Paul to address you and I 2K years later - that following the patterns of the apostles would be following a prudent path. I happen to agree.
Closer to home, I think it is important to know how God guides us through life. One way to know this is to study the Bible - which, if not written to us, can still be profitable for us, in the matter of growth and wisdom. God has chastened people in the bible, he has loved them, he has guided them and corrected them. I don’t think that has changed; I hope it hasn’t, because His providential care is something I count on with every breath.
I understand your pantelism pretty well now, having read the material on your site and other sites that deal with such matters. I am sometimes unclear as to its bearing on matters of discipleship. I’m sure you can clear it up.
Chad - I will never talk to you again, we have broken fellowship. Just kiddin’ - I’ve got a thicker skin that that, and my attitude is that you’ve gotta call 'em as you see 'em.
Looks like I owe Chad another $5-er ^^^ 
That’s why I was careful to use the word “inferred” to your agreement with Jeff’s use of “a sly contextual leap” 
Yep and I’d whole-heartedly agree… and yet HOW that is done and WHAT that might look like might not entail the same details as per the context of their lived “end-of-the-age” experience.
Agreed.
Again I would agree BUT with this caveat… such or said “chastening” is CLEARLY pertinent to THIS LIFE and anything beyond that can ONLY be read INTO such texts as Mt 25:46 and that for positional purposes but NOT exegetical.
In a similar vein I like the way Andrew Perriman puts some of this…
DaveB said:
“Chad - I will never talk to you again, we have broken fellowship. Just kiddin’ - I’ve got a thicker skin that that, and my attitude is that you’ve gotta call 'em as you see 'em.”
Well, my friend, truth prevails. I appreciate your love. I hope you understand that. We might not agree on theology, but I think we can believe together. My favorite guitar player in the whole world was Chet Atkins, Michael Hedges really influenced me, and I actually signed Preston Reed to a recording contract for about two hours. Don’t ask.
We are some how thrown together in this thing called life, and I appreciate you.
The reality for me is that Christ has done the work of the father, and I just hope folks can at least see a different position when it comes to the position of post mortem punishment. Golly, Christ is bigger than that.
We will talk soon.
Love ya,
Chad
This is an excellent point! Matthew 25:46 is clearly parallel. However, there is one very compelling exegetical answer…
Contrary to most universalists, while still being a universalist myself, I understand that the goats on Jesus left are not human beings but instead the fallen angels just extracted from Tartarus or Thalaasa for their judgment and sentencing to the LOF. I am fully convinced that the LOF is prepared only for the fallen angels! Check this article for a complete study dgjc.org/optimism/fallen-angels-at-the-great-white-throne-judgment. Wow it is so hard to discuss my whole argument in these little forum posts. I would love for you to read my entire argument in my book at amazon.com/Optimism-Out-Control-clarification-gospel/dp/151523990X.
So your argument that Matthew 25:46 must be parallel is accurate. However, my understanding then defends that chastisement for unbelieving mankind is temporal in Hades only. So blessed eternity begins for all mankind at the sheep and goat judgement which I understand to be synonymous with the the GWT. Unbelieving mankind is extracted out of Hades for their salvation, not for their further punishment!
Jeff, I can appreciate your fervour… however, as per the context of the passage I cannot buy into this idea that those separated to the left, i.e., the goats, to be “fallen angels”, for these reasons from the text…
-
Those cast into the “everlasting fire” WITH “the devil and his angels” WERE those of the NATIONS (the tribes of Israel) gathered before the throne (Mt 25:32) who had not practiced graciousness to the… hungry, thirsty, naked, sick or those in prison. These “nations” are people and NOT “fallen angels”.
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There is NO record of ‘fallen angels’ ever being instructed in the ways of charitableness… that was a basic calling within ISRAEL. Those so separated were other than “the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41); this the text makes VERY clear.
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NOWHERE in Scripture are angels referred to as the dead… whatever angels might be said to be “the dead, small and great” (Rev 20:12) are ALWAYS a reference to PEOPLE who “were judged, each one according to his works” (Rev 20:13).