Chad - we’re good, my friend. “Opposition is true friendship” (Owen Barfield to C.S. Lewis) (Or vice-versa) 
I reckon Tommy Emmanuel can play anything that can be done on acoustic guitar. But, I have about 20 guitarists that, each one, is my favorite. 
Wow that is a pretty quick assessment. Did you read my article or my book? I’d love to get a more thorough critique from you. You did have three good objections, however, beginning with Matthew 25:41, which explicitly says the LOF is prepared for the fallen angels and not mankind, I then list more than three reasons to defend my understanding. So your arguments will need to be weighed against mine.
Ya Mr. Emmanuel is great, I have to confess my sin here, I read an interview of his and he mentioned something along the line that at one point his marriage got in the way of his career, and basically one had to go. I’m a bit old fashioned that way, and hey, she might have been a witch. But it is funny how something like that will taint one’s view. Never listened to him much after that.
It is unfortunate, but I’m not above judging someone is what I guess I am saying. 
It is because every believer is at a different level of maturity. And the Bible says “God gives to each a measure of faith.”
And since this thread is really about God’s sovereignty in the salvation of all, and since we are told God WILL have all mankind to be saved FOR Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6) we see God sovereignly involved in the salvation of all. He will save all because all have been ransomed. Since all mankind have been ransomed all mankind must be freed from enslavement to sin and death into the freedom of immortality and incorruption.
I’m confused. Why would any “Universalist” church teach eternal correction? Would that not negate God saving all? And would that not lump the “Universalist” church in with the eternal tormentist church?
Actually there is a perfectly legitimate work-around for the above problem. First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 is not about all mankind but the NATIONS which well treated or mistreated Christ’s brothers during their great tribulation. This judgment occurs when Christ returns (see Matt.25:31) and sets up His 1000 year kingdom in Israel. The bad NATIONS get eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to that eon. The NATIONS which treated His brothers well get eonian life which is the enjoyment of life of the kingdom blessings pertaining to that eon. In both cases the chastening and blessings are pertaining to that eon. That is what the adjective “eonian” tells us. That eon will end and then the New Earth eon begins. So the chastening and life of blessings for those NATIONS will end.
@Eusebius, I’ve enjoyed our agreement concerning God’s sovereignty over mankind’s salvation. In fact I must confess that I am confused by the objections of others because our great confidence that all mankind will be saved is because God has willed it, promised it, secured it at the cross, and now we simply wait for the final removal of all sin and brokenness on that great day!
As a side and perhaps minor point, I recently switched my eschatological view. I think I understand that you are a pre-millenialist so that the Sheep and Goat judgment is before the 1,000 and the GWT then after. That was my view for most of my Christian life. However, recently I have switched to the view that the 1,000 year period is the church age and that the Sheep and Goat judgment is the same event as the GWT. Hopefully that is a minor point between us. If you are curious how I came to change my view here are two articles on the subject…
dgjc.org/optiomism/eschatology-is-the-study-of-future-good-news
Yes, Tommy is very gifted. I’m sure it took a lot of hard work though. He is such an inspiration to us guitarists to watch.
Yes, Chiliasm (Thousand-ism) which was the earliest church view of a coming thousand year reign of Christ, was later considered heretical by the later state religion called the Roman Catholics. But some say it wasn’t condemned. I do hold to the coming thousand year reign of Christ on earth. However, I am of the opinion that the believers of the nations will not see that since they will, in spirit, be with Christ among the celestials during that time.
It is nice that we can disagree on this matter yet keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace. I will have a look over your links provided.
P.S. I appreciate your irenic posts.
I have read some of your material from previously posts where you’ve provided a link or two. I can’t say I go with your basic eschatological position as I think your theology drives that, but to be fair to you I think that can be true and said of any of us; I just subscribe to a differing and what I see as a more logical and historical perspective, that’s all.
I agreed the fire was for “the devil and his angels” but your objection “and not mankind” I show to be inaccurate BECAUSE the goats to the left ARE FROM the so-gathered NATIONS i.e., a portion thereof, and thus CLEARLY PEOPLE and NOT your “fallen angels” – now you haven’t shown here HOW vs. 32 isn’t relative to vs. 41… you need to show that and not simply just claim it as so.
Well so far any reasonable reading of what I’ve produced indicates that, to use your words… “You did have three good objections” 
and so far you haven’t given your counter points where you “list more than three reasons to defend my understanding” – so why not just show such and your “arguments will need to be weighed against mine.”
EXACTLY… but that is the net effect and result of the universalist position that seeks to mollify kolasin <κόλασιν> BUT then neglects the fact that said chastening is “lasting” or “age-enduring” IN ACCORD WITH the said “life” OF THE SELF-SAME “lasting” or “age-enduring”. You see logically it just doesn’t stack up, as you yourself can see and have acknowledged.
I actually agree with you here, although I view this as fulfilled history ALREADY past (which obviously you do not) in terms of unrighteous of Israel having persecuted “the Israel of God” in the ‘last days’ of the old covenant age or “eon”.
This is WHERE your theory gets muddled and stretched… IF you are going to maintain that the “eon will end” HOW or on WHAT basis can you THEN logically claim that the “New Earth eon” does NOT likewise have an END, given that according to you an “eon” must have an end. << See, you have the SAME problem, or put simply… ‘same house different street’.
Now just to confuse you more, I DO believe “eon” has a time-frame BUT reached and concluded for reasons other than what you give, and that’s because as just shown… your logic is faulty and cannot IMO be maintained.
‘Ethnos’ does not mean ‘nations’ as in the human nations of the world. 1st century Greek ‘Ethnos’ does not even mean ‘Ethinic’ group is it does in modern English. Quoting from my article dgjc.org/optimism/you-are-wrong-about-matthew-25-31-46…
Hi jeff,
I’m sure you do know there is another, perfectly legitimate understanding that Matthew 25:31-46 is not the Great White Throne judgment. In Acts 10:22 we have “the nation of the Jews.” A nation is a collection of people with a ruler and a geographical boundary in which that ruler and people live.
Also, there is another perfectly legitimate understanding to “Adversary and his messengers” in:
“Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers” (Mat 25:41)
It can be understood that there is an ellipsis after “Adversary” and that “Adversary” need not be capitalized since it is not talking about Satan but rather** the adversary nation** to Christ’s brothers and “messengers” are “emissaries” who carry to other nations letters of negative import against the brothers of Christ to persecute them. And so the fire prepared for them is the same “furnace of fire” prepared for the bad Israelites when Christ returns:
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:41-42)
Mat 13:43 Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear!
The above takes place 1000 years prior to the Great White Throne judgment as shown in Revelation:
Rev_20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years." After the 1000 years comes the GWT judgment.
The result of the judgment in Matthew is “eonian chastening.” The result of the judgment in Revelation is called “death.”
I’ve heard this argument many times, but I believe it to be invalid. (By the way, the Greek word “αιωνιον” transliterates as “aiōnion”) It’s the accusative case of “αιωνιος”
“αιωνιος” is a word that means “lasting.” The meaning says nothing about time; the time can be short, long, or unending. That which is “αιωνιος” can last a short time (Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days was “aionios” in the Septuagint translation.
Jonah 2:6 (2:7) to the clefts of the mountains; I went down into the earth, whose bars are the everlasting (“αιωνιος”) barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.
Josephus used the word to describe the jail sentence that Jonathan underwent (it was 3 years).
In Philemon 1:15, the word refers to the return of Onesimus to Philemon (which certainly did not last forever).
In the Septuagint, the word is used to describe hills. Hills are lasting, but they are not eternal.
The word has been applied to our life in Christ, and also to God Himself, both of which have no end.
So the “goats” can go to lasting correction (The Greek word “κολασις” means “correction.” It was originally used in connection with pruning trees to correct their growth. It was later used figuratively to describe means of correcting the behaviour of children). As applied to the “goats”, it couldn’t be “everlasting correction”; if it were everlasting, the correction would never be completed).
The sheep go to lasting life. It just so happens that there is no end to that lasting life. Again, there is nothing inherent in the meaning of “aionios” that indicates any time frame.
Nice thoughts Paidion. I especially liked how you tied in the historic usages to show it was not used as a word denoting unendiness.
Thank you, Eusebius. I also deeply appreciated what you wrote about corrective discipline.
Hi Paidion,
You wrote:
So if there is (as I assume you are talking about here) a post mortem punishment, how long and of what severity will it be? 
If you hold, as I, that the 1,000 period of Revelation 20 is the the church age, the a-millenial position, then Revelation 20:5 suggests that the wicked dead are punished or at least separated from fellowship from believers for the entire church age. Sounds like an impossibly long time, yet still far short of eternal! However, even if 1,000s of years I also belief that Christ is gracious and kind even to those punished in Hades. The worst part of the punishment could be to still continue living with a sinful nature even beyond this life. Then at the GWT the wicked dead humanity are extracted from Hades and granted salvation, while the Devil and his angels are extracted from Tartarus / Thalaasa to continue on to the LOF. Well the Devil was not extracted for he was on the loose just prior to this arraignment and cast into the LOF even before the GWT. However, many of the fallen angels are presently held for judgment on the Great Day, presumably the GWT, still future in my opinion, Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4.
However, I hope to not be dogmatic about the duration of punishment in Hades, especially so because 1 Peter 4:6 could be speaking about this question as well. That is after Christ’s victory on the cross, Christ personally spoke to those currently punished in Hades in order that they would also live for God. That is hopeful. We do not have a lot of Biblical data about the after life world that is hidden to us, but I certainly would not rule out post-mortem salvation. Then again Revelation 20:5 is certainly a word of caution.
So respectfully I’m not sure what you just said? And if like you say it is a long time, yet not eternal, what will this time be for a sinner like me? 
If I understand you, Jeff, this illustrates one of the many reasons that I do not believe in post-mortem unpleasantness. Let us take a year at random and pretend that it will be the year of Christ’s Second Coming…let us say A. D. 852,112. That means that the wicked dead who died in the 1st century would have a hard time of it for over 852,000 years. Compare them with the wicked dead who die in A. D. 852,111: These latter will have no more than a year of unpleasantness! Can we assume that the wicked dead who died in the year of grace 38 are are hundreds of thousands of times more wicked than those who died in the year of grace 852,111? If not, what justifies the 852,000+ year long separation for the one group, but only a 1-year long separation for the latter group? (And let’s not forget the wicked men who die mere minutes or seconds before the Second Advent! “Hey! How come I got rooked for hundreds of millennia, while this other guy’s time in Hades was so short that it was over before he even realized where he was!?”])
(Of course this line of reasoning will work with any year, including A. D. 2016. May God grant that this is the year!)
Perhaps one might posit unpleasantness for the wicked even after the general resurrection which accompanies the Second Coming, but that leads to its own series of grotesque implications. How long could one be sinful in an incorrupt, immortal, imperishable, spiritual body (as per I Corinthians 15) in the new heavens and the new earth? I think the answer is zero seconds.
(I want to emphasize that I mean all of this in the nicest possible way. In disagreeing with my fellow believers, I imagine myself basically saying, “I believe it’s going to be even better than you think!” 
)
This is what I find inconsistent with your approach… you say the above (which I get, but for other reasons) BUT THEN IMMEDIATELY follow up with time based examples via Jonah and Josephus to apparently back up this point… these examples do the exact opposite by just negating your whole point. Surely you can see that?
Ok so now, using your SAME exegetical consistency… apply this rationale to the LIFE of the sheep: according to you the LIFE would never be completed either. Whatever rationale you apply to one MUST flow with the other. IOW… whatever the scope of said “punishment” for the goats applies equally to said scope of “life” for the sheep. THAT IS fully logical AND consistent.
How then do you resolve the logically inconsistent conundrum of your position? You simply say… “It just so happens that there is no end to that lasting life.” – ‘it just so happens’, really? This IMO is so woefully clumsy that surely you CANNOT truly be convinced of this yourself Paidion??
It definitely CAN mean “correction” and the technical point about “pruning” IS valid, YET the strong connotation of this is as per Mt 25:46 is… that which has been pruned is fit fuel for fire i.e., it is destroyed etc.
I understand FULLY WHY universalism highlights the “corrective” side of the equation, because the notion of an unending torturous conscious existence writhing in flame postmortem is wholly repugnant… I get that and agree! The problem as I see it is that the whole basis for the argument is faulty in the first place BECAUSE it buys into and assumes that said “fire” is a postmortem penal reality and judgement/punishment; I believe this is wholly WRONG and therefore the so-called issue is moot. IOW there is another explanation.
For mine… given that “aiōn” <αἰών> is the primary root word and among other things means… “a period of time of significant character; an era; an age” ([size=85]The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, 1978 Edition, Harold K. Moulton, p. 11[/size]) I think “age-lasting” or “age-enduring” are reasonable translations for such cognates as “aiōnion” <αἰώνιον>, as found in Mt 25:46.
Now length of said punishment is often indeterminate EXCEPT where “aiōnion” <αἰώνιον> is used, and yet even this typically confines such to an age (whatever that age might be). Example: in the OT ‘circumcision’ was instituted by Yahweh as “an everlasting covenant” (aiōnion <αἰώνιον>)… but we know that given “everlasting” or “lasting” (if you must) ONLY lasted and was relevant ACCORDING TO THE AGE wherein it applied, i.e., the old covenant age. We know this to be true because circumcision was but the physical forerunner of the true circumcision of the heart cemented later in Christ in the new covenant age.
Again I’d like to stress that the needless contortions placed upon the Mt 25:46 text with regards to who’s in or who’s out of heaven, or one’s post-death state just confuses the issue. The “eternal” aspects of either life OR punishment are one and the same and are best understood according to Jesus’ own QUALITATIVE definition as found in Jn 17:3 where said “eternal life” is equated with the blessedness of “to KNOW God…” which speaks to realising the FULLNESS of God in LIFE, in this life. This then follows the same thought previously stated by Jesus in Jn 10:10 with regards to obtaining LIFE TO THE FULL i.e., “fullness of life” – again IN THIS LIFE. So yes, technically all these things occur within the undefined parameters of “an age” and yet aren’t limited by a strict literalism.
Thus the QUALITATIVE meaning shows that in the soon coming ‘Day of the Lord’ either life OR punishment would be known in all its TOTALITY or fullness. Even in that last days period of the old covenant some were coming to experience this reality in terms of being “dead in trespasses and sins” but responding to the gospel of covenant renewal and would thus “live” = resurrection…
Jesus’ “and NOW is” shows this resurrection was NOT pointing to some future postmortem *event *BUT rather a then present LIFE reality!