Davo said:
This is interesting… 
I have a question for those who believe in Universalism and Postmortem punishment. Can you describe the nature of this punishment from scripture? And is that description literal or metaphorical - and why?
Oh, yes. Besides the serious questions above - some jokes to start the day. 
I just ate a large can of alphabet pasta and had the largest vowel movement ever.
I didn’t realize removing my doorbell would have such a knock on effect.
What didn’t you understand? Further question?
I thought you were a Christian. There is no afterlife punishment for Christians. However, if you are not a Christian, then beware.
Luke 16:25-28 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Some would interpret this metaphorically or as a place that no longer exists after the cross or 70AD. Yet it cannot be a metaphor because elsewhere the Scriptures speak of its literal end. For example, Jesus says Hades is temporal in that the ‘gates of Hades will not prevail’. 1 Corinthians 15:55 also says Hades will not have the victory. And Revelation 20 explicitly teaches the emptying of Hades, but only after the 1,000 year epoch. This is not the emptying of a metaphor but of a place that houses the unbelieving redeemed until the final judgment.
I guess that is why one’s view of eschatology is important because it says much about the duration of punishment in Hades. Of course I hope all of us with strong opinions on the subject agree that the opinion of Jesus Christ is the strongest, for his sovereign will prevails on the subject. He will not consult our opinion for his future actions, but we will obey his will. So we look forward to his promise that punishment in Hades will end when he removes the gulf between the believing and the unbelieving redeemed.
I am sure everyone watching this post knows all these verses.
Jeff said:
So, just to clarify, afterlife punishment has nothing to do with a Christians sins, but has to do if one is a Christian or not. So I will go back to the original question, (I think Randy also asked something along the similar line) So taking your statement and let’s just imagine I am a very good nice Buddhist, and I pass on in that belief, how long will my afterlife punishment be? 
I think Jeff once said - on another forum thread - that he sides with inclusism (which - by the way - is the majority opinion, of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches). In another words, someone could be saved by the faith principle (“The unevangelized may be saved if they respond in faith to God based on the revelation they have”). So I would ask this of Jeff. Does one need to express an explicit faith in Christ (like some Protestant churches say, or** restrictivism**, as the article describes), in order to be deemed a “Christian” and “saved”? I guess I would ask this of those posting here, who side with universalism and postmortem correction and/or punishment.
As the highlighted article articulates:
Exactly as long as Jesus determines because he is the sovereign ruler of all.
It is clear there is punishment for the unbeliever after death, anyone not naming Christ as Lord, and it is also clear that this punishment is temporal. However, I don’t see enough Biblical data to say for sure how long this punishment will last. However, as I already mentioned Revelation 20:5 could be easily understood to mean that the gulf of separation between the believing redeemed and the unbelieving redeemed endures for the entire 1,000 epoch. That would be the case whether one is pre-millenial, a-millenial, post-millenial, or even preterist. Though if you are preterist you conclude that the 1,000 epoch is already concluded. But even then you must acknowledge that there was a gulf of separation at some time.
Your question suggests that your primary hermeneutic is what seems reasonable or good to you. I agree that any Biblical conclusion must be reasonable and that is why I was driven to a universalist position, because Calvinism and Arminianism both part ways with reason. Yet that does not mean our feeling and our reason are the final word in interpretation. God himself has shared truth with us via the Scriptures and now we have the hard work to understand what he had said. And certainly our opinion will not change how he acts now and in the future. The original focus of this post is that God is sovereign over all his acts and decisions concerning our well being, our being born again, and our intermediate and final destinies. Our will is not ‘free’ over these things.
Perhaps you imagine that the punishments of Hades are inflicted on good people. But this is not the case at all. The Scriptures define a clear line between the born again, new man, in Christ, versus the man who stills remains in unbelief, unchanged. Good as the unbeliever may appear, their heart is still at enmity toward their loving creator. God loves them, but they hate God. This hatred toward God is often concealed by the pleasantries, religions, and political correctness of this world. Why even the Pharisees of Jesus day were ‘good’ people, until the preaching of Christ exposed their raw hatred of God. Furthermore, in the after life judgments this veneer will be stripped away and their natural unregenerate heart will be revealed for what it is. Consider, that the rich man in Hades still had no concern for the harm that he brought upon Lazarus, but only for his own skin. Yet I am sure he also had some rich friends that thought he was a good man. His unregenerate selfishness continues to rule even in the torments of Hades. The unbelieving actually prefer the torments as long as they can continue to be their own god rather than worship Christ in paradise. Of course if they could find a paradise where they could be their own god they would prefer that, but such a place does not exist.
I am open to the possibility because of Romans 2:10-16, but I find greater hope in the Christian mission of preaching Christ. Sitting around discussing whether people can be saved apart from faith in Christ is not the thrust of Christian mission. Though happily I do believe that everyone will be saved sooner or later. Our efforts should be to teach others about the unfailing love of Christ and command others to repent and follow him now.
Jeff Said:
So if you are a universalist and say the above, Would you consider yourself a postmortem/evangelism believer as per the inclusivism link of Randy’s
Randy wrote:
I would be interested in the answer also.
Jeff said
You are using words like punishment, remaining in un belief, they hate God etc.
So a child is born and lives for a few moments and then passes on and is in unbelief, will this child be punished or be given a chance to know who Christ is?
The article at Inclusism, also highlights the positions of:
Universalism
Inclusivism
Postmortem Evangelism
Universal Opportunity before Death
Restrictivism
If you look at the author’s summary chart entitled Views on the Destiny of the Unevangelized, there are both Biblical verses and historical figures, supporting each position
There is a couple good articles, arguing the Protestant Biblical perceptive at:
An ‘evangelical inclusivist’ defends evangelical inclusivism and Why inclusivism makes sense
An ‘evangelical inclusivist’ defends evangelical inclusivism
Good question. Let’s even consider the aborted unborn who never saw the light of day. Or consider my own unbelieving dad who now suffers with dementia. Or what about those with Down’s Syndrome or any number of disabilities. It seems like the heart of your question is can we trust Christ as judge? Thankfully we and are opinions are not the judge, but Christ is judge. He has not outlined to us what he will do in each and every of these situations. Many theologies introduce concepts like an age of accountability or try to draw lines between a ‘good’ unbeliever and a bad unbeliever. Much of this is an effort to control, define, and in the end be the judge ourselves or let our theology be the judge. Romans 2:16 is an excellent verse showing that since God knows our secrets he is qualified to be every person’s judge.
So believers should have great confidence that Christ will do right and then we should rest in this confidence. The Scriptures outline a simple gospel message that those who confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. One thief on the cross did that and was promised paradise this day. The other thief did not and was offered no assurance. So let’s preach the good news and let Christ be the judge. Those who preach a gospel message from a heart of fear do nothing to serve Christ, but instead only lead people astray to ‘do something’ such as go forward or pray a prayer to get their salvation ticket. No. Instead we preach the good news that the sins of all mankind are already paid and we are invited, even commanded, to follow Christ our creator, savior. Furthermore, the gospel of grace teaches us that God alone changes hearts and opens our eyes to receive this good news. Why I teach this to children in Sunday school who happily believe it! Yet in this forum post there seems to be anger about the fact as people plant their foot down on their own supposed ‘free will’.
jeff said
Actually I just wanted to know in your view if the child is punished or given a chance to know of Christ?
You went a long way around aunt sally’s but didn’t answer the question. 
Sorry friend. I thought my answer was clear. I do not know. Does Christ, automatically convert the heart of infants who die or does he allow their unregenerate hearts to grow and blossom into what a sinner is by nature? I do not know. Do you know?
First, I want to make clear that it is not punishment in the sense of penalty. Actually, I never use the word “punishment” in connection with the correction in the afterlife. This correction that God provides is administered out of pure LOVE (which is the very essence of God). The writer to the Hebrews compares God’s correction to a man’s correction of his child:
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:4-11 ESV)
I’m sure Davo will be quick to point out that the Lord’s discipline to which the above passage refers, is all about His correction in this present life, and does not directly address post-mortem correction at all. However, I think this is irrelevant. For, if, in this life, God does not instantly change evil doers from sinners to righteous people, why should it be expected that He will instantly change them in the next life? Correction takes time.
To answer your question, MM, as to how long it will take, and what degree of severity, I say simply that this correction will take as long as is necessary, and will vary from one individual to the next (as you know some people are more stubborn and resistant than others). As to severity, I suggest much the same. God will administer no more correction than is absolutely necessary.
Also, as I have previously indicated, even disciples of Christ will require post-mortem correction. Many of us die without having repented of, and been delivered from, particular evil tendencies that are within us. “Everyone will be salted with fire” (Mark 9:49). Both salt and fire are purifying agents. Yes, there are passages that indicate that the children of God will have joy in the afterlife, and the others will have sorrow. That is true. But these passages do not address the manner in which that joy may result from correction, and that the sorrow may be a temporary state prior to the completion of correction.
No I don’t know and thanks for your honesty.
There is nothing to see. I did not say that examples of subjects that are modified by the adjective “αιωνιος” have no time element in them. We live in a temporal world, and so it would be difficult or impossible to give examples that are unrelated to time.
If I said the meaning of “strong” has nothing to do with time, and then gave the example of Samson pushing down the pillars of the house, would you think that my “time based” example proves that “strong” has a meaning that involves time? That this example “negates my whole point”?
All I said is that the MEANING of “αιωνιος” says nothing about time. The adjective doesn’t imply that the action of the subject lasts 3 days or 3 years or thousands of years (such as mountains) or forever (such as God) or for any other particular length of time. Rather than negating my point, these examples prove my point—that “αιωνιος” is not time related. The word means “lasting”, no more and no less. In all of my examples, the subject or event was lasting, but the MEANING of the word gives no information as to how long the subject or event lasts.
So αιωνιος means a length of time that could be of any duration whatsoever (from a split second up to and including never-ending)? And the specific length of time associated with a given use of αιωνιος depends on its context?
Dr. Heleen Keizer who wrote Life Time Entirety also defends that ‘aionian’ can easily mean ‘entire’ or ‘complete’ or ‘whole’. The idea is that the Greeks did not even have a concept for eternal time as does the Western world. However, the concept of an eon or age lent the adjective ‘aionian’ to handily mean entire or complete. That definitely is the meaning in 2 Thess 1:9. I think Talbott follows that as well translating the verse something like…
So at the return of the Lord, those who have not lived for God will completely lose everything that they did live for. Their earthly lives will have been a total waste. God’s love of course will not fail, but their lives in this life will be completely destroyed.
So anyway ‘entire’ is also a possible eligible denotation for consideration in Matthew 25. That is also the better reading of John 3:16. Time is not in view at all in John 3:16 but instead wholeness.
NO. It doesn’t mean “a length of time” at all. Anymore than "strong"means “a length of time.” A length of time may be involved—just as in the adjective “strong.”
Ah, yes. I had a mental lapse. αιωνιος is an adjective, after all.
CORRECT!!
Yep… never let good biblical logic and clarity get in the way so as to cloud convenient conjecture. 
It was God in Christ (2Cor 5:19) who CHANGED THE STANCE of man before Him from unrighteous TO righteous, NOT holding against man their trespasses… THAT is VERY CLEAR from the text. No more no less.
Also… noting Paidion’s AGREEMENT above that the Heb 12:4-11 passage “does not directly address post-mortem correction at all” – “at all” – falls in line with Paul’s words to believers here…
…and so whether “For he who has died” be literal or metaphorical Paul’s “HAS BEEN freed from sin” is indisputably CLEAR… there is NOTHING towards believers in terms of “post-mortem correction” for sin relative to this life. Ignoring truth doesn’t negate it, it simply doesn’t appreciate (grasp) it.
Again… the efficacy of God’s forgiveness has NEVER been reliant upon OUR performance in terms of what WE might repent of. What you are advocating seems nothing short of rank religiosity.
A text out of context is a pretext for whatever interpretation one wants to impose upon said text.
WARNING: WHAT I’M ABOUT TO SAY IS NOT TRUE…
There will be sinners postmortem for whom there will be NO other side to their “lasting correction” because “lasting” is not time-bound, and if in this life they ‘blaspheme the Holy Spirit’ there is NO remedy to end the “lasting correction” of their heinous sin.
The logic is SOUND but the base premise is FALSE! You see it is possibly to create any crass position by misreading, misunderstanding and so misapplying scripture… and the results are devastating to people’s lives due to the helpless weight of self-condemnation such ludicrous teachings bring, keeping them crushed and bound.
Again logic should indicate WHY this is so… BECAUSE such does NOT exist, period!
With regards to “aiōnion” <αἰώνιον> Paidion suggests…
…other than it is still relative to the etymology of an age – whatever that age might be, and thus consequently “age-lasting” provides a better understanding or MEANING of this age related adjective. Hence as I have previously noted but summarily keeps getting ignored BECAUSE it doesn’t fit certain precious presuppositions brought to the text…
Jeff, lets look at another possibility. Paul talks of a new creation, and we are told of a new heaven an new earth, this in my view has been accomplished in Christ’s death burial and resurrection. So the baby might not have anything to worry about because from my view, Christ took sin away at the cross. But my view is that He also took [size=150]every [/size]sin away at the cross. 
So While we talk about this you might go "ya, I can see your point about the baby, but I just can’t go there with the gang banger. And that is fine. If we are a truly new creation in Christ, and he has dealt with our sin once and for all, why would there be post mortem punishment, or what Paidion says, correction? 
Once again, we have to ask my age old question: Is Christ’s atoning work actual or conditional. And to ad fuel to the fire, we know Christ came to try to arouse Israel from their slumber (my words) but he also allowed some to be blinded. So to our original post, It seems to me that God can very well and has every right to grant free will, but at the same time being creator, has control over the aspects of his creation to implement the things he most acutely wants to happen. (all the babies being killed by Herod, All the firstborn being Killed during the exodus.) And yet the baby (our baby and all the babies) is/are safe in the arms of Christ because of His sacrifice. This is true love. I’ll quit here. Thanks for the opportunity to share.
Chad