Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

[jeff]

Jeff, lets look at another possibility. Paul talks of a new creation, and we are told of a new heaven an new earth, this in my view has been accomplished in Christ’s death burial and resurrection. So the baby might not have anything to worry about because from my view, Christ took sin away at the cross. But my view is that He also took every sin away at the cross.

Cerainly. That is my belief. In fact I’ll go a step further than you. I think I heard you say that you see the complete redemption of mankind fully accomplished at the cross or you also mention 70AD as the final fulfillment of these things, from your preterist position. However, according to God’s word we should instead look back in time to before creation! Ephesians 1:4. I believe all mankind’s redemption was secured, guarranteed, and finalized even before creation. Mankind has never ever been unforgiven or unloved by God! God’s eternal love did not begin at the cross but was instead the cross was the demonstration and proof. This is the love he has had for all mankind from the very beginning.

So you ask why would there be any post-mortem punishment? We should also ask why should there be any pre-mortem punishment? Do you ask these questions because somehow you think that correction and punishment is unloving? Correction, punishment, discipline, choose whatever words you are comfortable with, they are simply God inflicting pain upon the sinner for the purpose of moving us from unrighteousness to righteousness. So you may argue that we are already righteous in Christ. Yes yes yes, certainly. However, most theologians rightly explain that we are 100% positionally righteous before God, but we are far from practically righteous. Our positional righteousness is most important because it assures me of God’s love and guarrantees me an eternal home in Heaven. However, practically from day to day I, even as a Christian, still sin and since God is a perfectl Heavenly Father he is also concerned about the way I live from day to day. If I am a believing son and stumble from time to time, God will treat me like a son and lovingly correct. Or, if I am an unbelieving criminal, God will treat me like a just judge and imprison me in Hades, that is if I am not a Christian.

Once again, we have to ask my age old question: Is Christ’s atoning work actual or conditional.

Actual. Both the believer and unbeliever are already fully forgiven. However, as just explained above, just because my sins have been atoned by the Christ, slain from the foundation of the world, that does not mean sin is exempt from correction. You seem to keep coming back to the idea that if sins are forgiven then one cannot be corrected or punished. Why? Perhaps you had bad experiences or examples of unloving correction in the past? Sadly there is unloving correction in this fallen world, but God is not like that.

It seems to me that God can very well and has every right to grant free will, but at the same time being creator, has control over the aspects of his creation to implement the things he most acutely wants to happen.

Yes that is the question of this original post. For myself I don’t ever call my God deterministic and I also know every one makes decisions and is responsible for their decisions. Yet God still remains the sovereign God, the only being with no antecedent, who is the first cause of all events. Whereas there are antecedents to every human action and every world event. God doesn’t merely effect and influence things that he ‘most acutely wants to happen’. He is intimately involved with every inch of his creation, Colossians 1:17. Though God certainly doesn’t soil his hands directly with evil, but uses Satan as his implement. Yet none-the-less God remains sovereign over evil as well, just as the Scriptures teach, Isaiah 54:16, Isaiah 30:26. Paul’s magnum opus on the redemption of mankind concludes thus…

For from him and through him and to him are all things! To him be the glory forever! Amen. Romans 11:36.

Paul did not think God’s utter sovereignty over all things was a cause for objection, but a cause for worship and praise of God.

Also consider the faith and patience of King David who knew that God had the power to change his circumstance at any instant! So while David was trapped in the prison of his circumstance that he knew God had complete control over… David still trusted in God’s purposes and prayed for help.

Set me free from my prison, that I may praise your name. Then the righteous will gather about me because of your goodness to me. Psalm 142:7

So how do you interpret Isaiah 30:26? Seems like the God who inflicts does not do so without purpose, for he is also the loving God who heals the wounds the he himself inflicted. Wow.

[Paidion]

…other than it is still relative to the etymology of an age – whatever that age might be, and thus consequently “age-lasting” provides a better understanding or MEANING of this age related adjective.

Oh yes! “Age-lasting”—a much better definition of this adjective.
Jonah’s 3 days in the belly of the fish was “age-lasting.” Jonathan’s 3-year prison term was “age-lasting.”

Even a superficial study of Greek reveals that the etymology of a word does not necessarily define that word.
The fact that adjective “αιωνιος” is derived from the noun “αιων” (age) in no way implies that the meaning of “αιωνιος” is “age-lasting.”

[Paidion]

It was God in Christ (2Cor 5:19) who CHANGED THE STANCE of man before Him from unrighteous TO righteous, NOT holding against man their trespasses… THAT is VERY CLEAR from the text. No more no less.

So God just, abracadabra, changes the “stance” of a person from unrighteous to righteous! It doesn’t matter whether he is actually righteous—only that he is positionally righteous so as to avoid judgment. No correction necessary. If your child was stealing and beating up on other kids, I’m sure he would be happy if you took no action to correct him, but just pronounced him righteous.

God doesn’t tolerate unrighteousness. Unless one’s character is changed, he will persevere in unrighteousness, whether he’s pronounced righteous or not. God wants truly righteous people—not merely some kind of pretending righteousness that He thrusts upon them. Every person must be MADE righteous, and God doesn’t do that unilaterally. He does it in coöperation with the choices of the person. It sometimes requires discipline to induce proper choices. When all have been corrected, all will dwell with God forever.

The whole purpose of Christ’s sacrificial death was to save people from their sinful character. The angel told Joseph to call Mary’s son “Jesus” (Saviour) for He will save his people from their SINS. He didn’t say, "Call his name “Jesus” for He will change the stance of his people from unrighteous to righteous.

The Scripture to which you referred, doesn’t affirm the latter.

…in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

The key words here are “reconciling” and “reconciliation.” How does God reconcile people to Himself? They have to go His way, and do His will. They have to repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning their sins, and begin to forsake them. This is made possible by the enabling grace of God.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

[jeff]

Funny I agree with both Davo and Paidon on this point. “The righteous will live by faith!”

Contrary to standard evangelical thought I believe all mankind is already righteous through the blood of Christ whether believing or unbelieving. The status of all mankind is loved, forgiven, eternally secure. Trusting God does not change the fact that he has loved us and forgiven all mankind from the cross! However, not all mankind has a changed heart to believe the good news. The majority do not trust Christ and so even though they have a status of righteous with God they do not LIVE by faith. They are DEAD without faith.

So Davo is right that all mankind is already righteous and Paidon is right that believing mankind still needs correction and unbelieving mankind especially needs their eyes to be opened to the good news.

[anon47460357]

So God just, abracadabra, changes the “stance” of a person from unrighteous to righteous! It doesn’t matter whether he is actually righteous—only that he is positionally righteous so as to avoid judgment. No correction necessary. If your child was stealing and beating up on other kids, I’m sure he would be happy if you took no action to correct him, but just pronounced him righteous.

God doesn’t tolerate unrighteousness. Unless one’s character is changed, he will persevere in unrighteousness, whether he’s pronounced righteous or not. God wants truly righteous people—not merely some kind of pretending righteousness that He thrusts upon them. Every person must be MADE righteous, and God doesn’t do that unilaterally. He does it in coöperation with the choices of the person. It sometimes requires discipline to induce proper choices. When all have been corrected, all will dwell with God forever.

The whole purpose of Christ’s sacrificial death was to save people from their sinful character. The angel told Joseph to call Mary’s son “Jesus” (Saviour) for He will save his people from their SINS. He didn’t say, "Call his name “Jesus” for He will change the stance of his people from unrighteous to righteous.

I am in fundamental agreement with Paidion on this. I simply think that the correction is accomplished much more quickly than Paidion thinks.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Time to ask a question, since Israel is bounced around a bit** here**. How does everyone here - being universalists with various theological positions, interpret Romans 11:26:

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King James Bible
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Here is the take by the Protestant site Got Questions:

Will all Israel be saved in the end times?

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Answer: Romans 11:26 plainly says, “All Israel will be saved.” The question that arises is “What is meant by Israel?” Is the future “Israel” literal or figurative (i.e., referring to the ethnic Jews or referring to the Church)? Those who take a literal approach to the promises of the Old Testament believe that the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be restored to a right relationship with God and receive the fulfillment of the covenants. Those who advocate replacement theology basically affirm that the Church has completely replaced Israel and will inherit God’s promises to Israel; the covenants, then, will be fulfilled only in a spiritual sense. In other words, replacement theology teaches that Israel will not inherit the actual land of Palestine; the Church is the “new Israel,” and ethnic Israel is forever excluded from the promises—the Jews will not inherit the Promised Land as Jews per se.

We take the literal approach. The passages that speak of future Israel are difficult to view as figurative for the Church. The classic text (Romans 11:16–24) depicts Israel as distinct from the Church: the “natural branches” are the Jews, and the “wild branches” are the Gentiles. The “olive tree” is the collective people of God. The “natural branches” (Jews) are “cut off” the tree for unbelief, and the “wild branches” (believing Gentiles) are grafted in. This has the effect of making the Jews “jealous” and then drawing them to faith in Christ, so they might be “grafted in” again and receive their promised inheritance. The “natural branches” are still distinct from the “wild branches,” so that God’s covenant with His people is literally fulfilled. Romans 11:26–29, citing Isaiah 59:20–21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33–34, says:

“And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.’ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”

Here, Paul emphasizes the “irrevocable” nature of Israel’s calling as a nation (see also Romans 11:12). Isaiah predicted that a “remnant” of Israel would one day “be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD” (Isaiah 62:12). Regardless of Israel’s current state of unbelief, a future remnant will in fact repent and fulfill their calling to establish righteousness by faith (Romans 10:1–8; 11:5). This conversion will coincide with the fulfillment of Moses’ prediction of Israel’s permanent restoration to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10).

When Paul says Israel will be “saved” in Romans 11:26, he refers to their deliverance from sin (verse 27) as they accept the Savior, their Messiah, in the end times. Moses said, “The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live” (Deuteronomy 30:6). Israel’s physical inheritance of the land promised to Abraham will be an integral part of God’s ultimate plan (Deuteronomy 30:3–5).

So how will “all Israel be saved”? The details of this deliverance are filled out in passages such as Zechariah 8—14 and Revelation 7—19, which speak of end-times Israel at Christ’s return. The key verse describing the coming to faith of the future remnant of Israel is Zechariah 12:10, “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” This occurs at the end of the tribulation prophesied in Daniel 9:24–27. The apostle John references this event in Revelation 1:7. The faithful remnant of Israel is epitomized in Revelation 7:1–8. These faithful ones the Lord will save and bring back to Jerusalem “in truth and righteousness” (Zechariah 8:7–8, NASB).

After Israel is spiritually restored, Christ will establish His millennial kingdom on earth. Israel will be regathered from the ends of the earth (Isaiah 11:12; 62:10). The symbolic “dry bones” of Ezekiel’s vision will be brought together, covered with flesh, and miraculously resuscitated (Ezekiel 37:1–14). As God promised, the salvation of Israel will involve both a spiritual awakening and a geographical home: “I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land” (Ezekiel 37:14).

In the Day of the Lord, God will “reclaim the surviving remnant of his people” (Isaiah 11:11). Jesus Christ will return and destroy the armies gathered against Him in rebellion (Revelation 19). Sinners will be judged, and the faithful remnant of Israel will be set apart forever as God’s holy people (Zechariah 13:8—14:21). Isaiah 12 is their song of deliverance; Zion will rule over all the nations under the banner of Messiah the King.

[Eusebius]

Getting back to: “Free Willism or God’s Soeveignty in Salvation of All”:

We are told in Colossians 1:16:

“for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,”

All in created through Him. So Christ is the channel and God is the source of all. But look at the revelation right after that: “all is for Him.”

So all creation that came into being through Him is for the sole purpose of being for Him. It does not say “it is for Him if Creation just does all the right things.”
If we see a pile of money and enquire: What is that money for. The answer would be “that money is for him” as the man points at the one who will receive that money. The money is not for him if it just fulfills certain requirements.

Isn’t it nice to know that all is for Him?

[Paidion]

Randy, all the Judaizers, claim that Romans 11 teaches that all ethnic Israel will be saved. And they label anyone who disagrees with them “Replacement Theologists.” The fact is that Romans 11 teaches neither.

I invite you to consider my post on the matter in the following thread (it is the 6th one):

[A question from "The Evangelical Universalist")

[anon47460357]

How does everyone here - being universalists with various theological positions, interpret Romans 11:26:

King James Bible
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Allow me to address only a single aspect of your question.The last prophecy that had to be fulfilled before the Second Coming was fulfilled in Acts 2. Ever since the 120 believers were baptized in the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, the Second Coming of Christ has been imminent. That means that since Pentecost in A. D. 30 nothing whatsoever has to happen before Christ can return. Therefore Christ could return before you finish reading this sentence.

As such, Romans 11:26 has nothing whatsoever to do with a future event in history. All Israel will be saved, regardless of how one understands the word “Israel”, because all of creation (of which “Israel” is a subset) will be saved.

[davo]

Even a superficial study of Greek reveals that the etymology of a word does not necessarily define that word.

This explains a lot… your “superficial study of Greek” hasn’t revealed to you that “aiōn” <αἰών> (age) being the root of the adjective most definitely HELPS define WHAT is “lasting” — for example it isn’t talking about a “lasting headache” but a ‘lasting age’ — hence the appropriateness of “age-lasting” or “age-enduring”. At the moment I’ll trust the likes of ‘Young’s Literal Translation’ over ‘Paidion’s Literal Interpretation’.

…other than it is still relative to the etymology of an age – whatever that age might be, and thus consequently “age-lasting” provides a better understanding or MEANING of this age related adjective.

Oh yes! “Age-lasting”—a much better definition of this adjective.
Jonah’s 3 days in the belly of the fish was “age-lasting.” Jonathan’s 3-year prison term was “age-lasting.”

This is funny… previously you’ve attempted to make a case that “time” isn’t really a factor with regards to “aiōnion” <αἰώνιον> and yet here you are again this time smarting about “3 days” or “3-year” (time). As always there is the literal meaning and the applied meaning. Jesus for example describes himself as “the door”… the applied meaning of course indicating HE being the entrance unto God. Jonah did NOT know before time that he was to make a grand entrance to a beach party 3 days later and so in his natural turmoil speaks (prays) in terms of the TOTALITY (applied meaning) of his predicament, that for him surely seemed as “forever” or aiōnioi <αἰώνιοi> i.e., age-lasting / enduring, or to-the-age.

So God just, abracadabra, changes the “stance” of a person from unrighteous to righteous!

With respect to God’s view of humanity… His “abracadabra” as you would have it demeaned, was Calvary and ALL that that entailed; believe it or not but that solitary lonesome little Jew on the outskirts of Jerusalem back two millennia actually changed things.

It doesn’t matter whether he is actually righteous—only that he is positionally righteous so as to avoid judgment. No correction necessary. If your child was stealing and beating up on other kids, I’m sure he would be happy if you took no action to correct him, but just pronounced him righteous.

As always Paidion in reaction you jump to the other ridiculous extreme… a child of yours might be the town thug and as repugnant as you find his behaviour (which external appearances always seem to be your MO in determining the heart of a matter) I’m guessing in your imperfect heart there might just be a skerrick of love for him; or am I crediting you with too much? Fortunately God is far beyond our faulty assessments.

God wants truly righteous people—not merely some kind of pretending righteousness that He thrusts upon them.

Yeah that’s right… oh wait, there was of course this other murderous self-righteous thug who had that out-of-the-blue “ah ha” moment beyond his own intentions on a road to Damascus; you may have read about him??

The likes of righteous repentance is only possible BECAUSE OF the redemptive grace ALREADY IN PLAY, as is well attested to here…

Isa 44:22 “I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”

“Return to Me” = repentance… something ONLY possible BECAUSE they had first been REDEEMED.

Every person must be MADE righteous, and God doesn’t do that unilaterally.

Unilaterally? WITHOUT any profession of belief in or faith towards “the First Adam” humanity in toto was unilaterally ascribed BY GOD to be in him. WITHOUT any profession of belief in or faith towards “the Last Adam” humanity in toto was unilaterally ascribed BY GOD to be in Him.

Religianity just like its Judaistic forerunner always hankers after its pound of flesh, i.e., a works righteousness to prove oneself; it’s just called “confessing and believing”. One might object, and many do “but what if some don’t believe?” – does that make of none affect the grace of God – NO!!

Rom 3:3-4a For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!

Jesus… “appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself”. Christ changed forever the stance and status of humanity before Him in a most costly and yet ultimately positive way… letting folk know this (the Good News) is the privilege of those who have grasped this wondrous reality.

The Scripture to which you referred, doesn’t affirm the latter.

…in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

The key words here are “reconciling” and “reconciliation.” How does God reconcile people to Himself? They have to go His way, and do His will. They have to repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning their sins, and begin to forsake them. This is made possible by the enabling grace of God.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age,…

Paidion you place the cart before the horse — BECAUSE OF God’s PRIOR reconciliatory act in Christ (“when we were yet sinners”) man is able to subsequently move into the blessedness of LIFE (Jn 10:10; 17:3) that the reconciliation has ALREADY established… hence Paul’s following appeal “be ye therefore reconciled to God!” IOW… you’ve been made righteous (reconciled), NOW come and live in the FULL fruit OF that righteousness (reconciliation). Doing so enables blessedness beyond comprehension (Jn 14:27; 16:33). Thus what comes FIRST was… “the salvation of all people” and so facilitating and empowering said… “training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age,…” etc — it helps to get the cart back behind the horse Paidion.

All Israel fully inclusive of the good, the bad and the ugly, i.e., the righteous and the UNrighteous TOGETHER were FULLY REDEEMED out of bondage FIRST, period! THEN what the faith-based response of certain ones enabled was a further entrance into the depths of blessing IN THIS LIFE that the unfaithful redeemed missed, i.e., the land of promise — can you not see this?

[davo]

How does everyone here - being universalists with various theological positions, interpret Romans 11:26:

King James Bible
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Randy… as a pantelist (inclusive prêterism) I understand Israel’s deliverance (salvation) i.e., covenant restoration (resurrection Ezek 36:26-27; 37: 1-14) to be what Jesus accomplished as Israel’s Messiah and that He in fact DID “turn away ungodliness from Jacob”, that is, Jesus removed the reproach that stood against Israel due to her wanton unfaithfulness such as had led into captivity under Rome… as it had previously under Babylon; of which there were prophetic promises made ALL of which Jesus fulfilled (2Cor 1:20; Lk 21:22).

[davo]

Davo, people neither think nor talk about things that are “age-lasting”. Do you honestly believe that people in the Bible described God as “age-lasting”? That is, when they described God, do you actually believe they were thinking, “God will last for a period of time that will have an end”? It’s way too clunky. Likewise, when people spoke of eternal life, do you honestly believe they were ecstatic about the idea of possessing life that would last a period of time that would definitely to their knowledge come to an end? People don’t think or talk like that.

Yeah, and we’ve had this conversation before. This is WHY in English “everlasting” or “eternal” is used as opposed to the clunky-ness of the more strict literal reading. BUT AGAIN you also are getting hung up on the LITERAL as opposed to applied meaning that I’ve mentioned above.

[maintenanceman]

Davo said:

The likes of righteous repentance is only possible BECAUSE OF the redemptive grace ALREADY IN PLAY, as is well attested to here…

Isa 44:22 “I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”

“Return to Me” = repentance… something ONLY possible BECAUSE they had first been REDEEMED.

Paidion wrote:Every person must be MADE righteous, and God doesn’t do that unilaterally.

**Unilaterally? WITHOUT any profession of belief in or faith towards “the First Adam” humanity in toto was unilaterally ascribed BY GOD to be in him. WITHOUT any profession of belief in or faith towards “the Last Adam” humanity in toto was unilaterally ascribed BY GOD to be in Him. **
Religianity just like its Judaistic forerunner always hankers after its pound of flesh, i.e., a works righteousness to prove oneself; it’s just called “confessing and believing”. **One might object, and many do “but what if some don’t believe?” – does that make of none affect the grace of God – NO!! **

Rom 3:3-4a For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not!

Jesus… “appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself”. Christ changed forever the stance and status of humanity before Him in a most costly and yet ultimately positive way… letting folk know this (the Good News) is the privilege of those who have grasped this wondrous reality.

Paidion wrote:The Scripture to which you referred, doesn’t affirm the latter.

…in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
The key words here are “reconciling” and “reconciliation.” How does God reconcile people to Himself? They have to go His way, and do His will. They have to repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning their sins, and begin to forsake them. This is made possible by the enabling grace of God.
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age,…

Paidion you place the cart before the horse —** BECAUSE OF God’s PRIOR reconciliatory act in Christ (“when we were yet sinners”) man is able to subsequently move into the blessedness of LIFE (Jn 10:10; 17:3) that the reconciliation has ALREADY established**… hence Paul’s following appeal “be ye therefore reconciled to God!” IOW… you’ve been made righteous (reconciled), NOW come and live in the FULL fruit OF that righteousness (reconciliation). Doing so enables blessedness beyond comprehension (Jn 14:27; 16:33). Thus what comes FIRST was… “the salvation of all people” and so facilitating and empowering said… “training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age,…” etc — it helps to get the cart back behind the horse Paidion.

All Israel fully inclusive of the good, the bad and the ugly, i.e., the righteous and the UNrighteous TOGETHER were FULLY REDEEMED out of bondage FIRST, period! THEN what the faith-based response of certain ones enabled was a further entrance into the depths of blessing IN THIS LIFE that the unfaithful redeemed missed, i.e., the land of promise — can you not see this?

I like

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Thanks everyone, for their input, on Israel’s salvation. While the topic is “God’s Sovereignty in Salvation of All”, any valid Biblical question, does show how God’s Sovereignty unfolds. And how universalists of different theological positions, actually see how God’s Sovereignty unfolds. Enough said - for now.

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[Eusebius]

Davo, people neither think nor talk about things that are “age-lasting”. Do you honestly believe that people in the Bible described God as “age-lasting”? That is, when they described God, do you actually believe they were thinking, “God will last for a period of time that will have an end”? It’s way too clunky. Likewise, when people spoke of eternal life, do you honestly believe they were ecstatic about the idea of possessing life that would last a period of time that would definitely to their knowledge come to an end? People don’t think or talk like that.

You are correct that God is not “age-lasting.” However, in Revelation it is written that Christ and those with Him live for the thousand years. Does this mean they all die when the thousand years end? No.
In the Greek God is said to be the eonian God which is God pertaining to the eons. He has a relationship to all the eons. The eons were created in Christ (Eph.3:11) (so they had a beginning and so were not endless in the past). All the eons collectively will end. So they cannot be eternal in the future. So we are left with only one option: When someone was told they will have eonian life, they were told they will have life pertaining to the eon(s). That is an incredible blessing. Believers get eonian life. We get life pertaining to the next two greatest glorious eons.

Believers put on immortality and incorruption AND also live through the next two eons. When the next two eons end, it will be the end of all the eons but we will continue to live due to having immortality. Our immortality is not based on having eonian life. Get it?

[Eusebius]

Even a superficial study of Greek reveals that the etymology of a word does not necessarily define that word.

This explains a lot… your “superficial study of Greek” hasn’t revealed to you that “aiōn” <αἰών> (age) being the root of the adjective most definitely HELPS define WHAT is “lasting” — for example it isn’t talking about a “lasting headache” but a ‘lasting age’ — hence the appropriateness of “age-lasting” or “age-enduring”. At the moment I’ll trust the likes of ‘Young’s Literal Translation’ over ‘Paidion’s Literal Interpretation’.

…other than it is still relative to the etymology of an age – whatever that age might be, and thus consequently “age-lasting” provides a better understanding or MEANING of this age related adjective.

It is improper to say that the adjective of aiwn, i.e., aiwnion, means age-lasting. The adjectival form of aiwn just has the duty of informing us of that which pertains to any given aiwn.

Even to say aiwn means “age” is incorrect. Aiwn does not actually mean “age.” It actually means “duration.” We know how long that duration is by definitive scriptures which tell us each duration ends.

Just as “Heavenly” informs us of something pertaining to Heaven and “American” informs us of something pertaining to America. You wouldn’t say (at least a sane person would not say) that if Bush was the American president that he was the America lasting president i.e. that he will be president as long as America lasts.

[Paidion]

@Davo

All Israel fully inclusive of the good, the bad and the ugly, i.e., the righteous and the UNrighteous TOGETHER were FULLY REDEEMED out of bondage FIRST, period! THEN what the faith-based response of certain ones enabled was a further entrance into the depths of blessing IN THIS LIFE that the unfaithful redeemed missed, i.e., the land of promise — can you not see this?

It seems to me that you’re just

I don’t see what you think is truth, and you don’t see what I think is truth. That’s where it stands, and I guess that’s where it will remain.

So as far as this discussion goes, I’m

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Me things this is what Paidion is looking for. I do this all the time, with some positions here. It’s what Holy Fools and P-Zombies do.

or

youtube.com/watch?v=b689dmCB9j0

[davo]

I don’t see what you think is truth, and you don’t see what I think is truth. That’s where it stands, and I guess that’s where it will remain.

All good Paidion… even though we might be talking from the other side of the fence to each other on some of this stuff it makes for interesting conversation.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I don’t see what you think is truth, and you don’t see what I think is truth. That’s where it stands, and I guess that’s where it will remain.

All good Paidion… even though we might be talking from the other side of the fence to each other on some of this stuff it makes for interesting conversation.

Hi, Davo. Someone is looking for a Preterit perspective (for a question or two), in the current thread On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell. I told them you are the residential expert. Can you help them out? Thanks.