What? Are you guys advocates of soul sleep? If you don’t like the Luke 23:43 we could take a look at Luke 20:38. The Sadducees denied the resurrection and Jesus silenced them noting that all are alive to him whether in this life or the next. Perhaps there are no present-Millennial people reading this forum post, but Revelation 20:4 and much of Revelation shows that the deceased believers / martyrs are not dead, but in fact alive in Heaven. Luke 16 also reveals actual conversation from the afterlife, though I understand many of you think that is a parable. 2 Corinthians 5:8 also seems clear to me.
Back to the primary question. Another favorite verse of mine is Isaiah 30:26,
I bit unsettling that God would inflict wounds, but when he heals us and shines his brilliant light we ourselves will testify that the sovereign God is all wise and all loving and downright the BEST!
In the book The Pipe and Christ: A Christian-Sioux Dialogue by Roman Catholic priest William Stolzman (available from Amazon), he distinguish that there are spirits of Heaven, Hell and the Earth. In the dialogue with the Sioux medicine men and Roman Catholic priests, the spirits told the Sioux medicine men - something that shocked them. That the Roman Catholic Priests - if they kept going - could hear the voices of the spirits.
Tiffany Snow, the contemporary Old Catholic Church mystic, saw this in her visions:
And in a Christian, grief share group - when my mother passed, one participant was a Eastern Orthodox priest. He shared experiences with his mother, after she had passed.
Of course, some might ask:
Now off to the argument clinic. Perhaps some on this forum thread - work there. They do charge a fee - for an argument.
From my perspective it’s a bit of a moot question given I was just providing an answer following on according to the logic of your claim, though the basis of which I myself don’t really hold to. There are however some contrary thoughts more in line with the angle you take at that LINK HFPZ posted up the page.
Yes of course Rev 20:10… not sure what I was thinking or not thinking. However… “One cannot be tormented if one is destroyed.” Given that an age is not endless then the potential for eventual “destruction” is likely there. But even so, this could be a simple literary device expressing the utter end one was said to be coming to; not dissimilar to the “everlasting destruction” of 2Thess 1:9, which in and of itself self is an oxymoron, i.e., as you allude, if something is destroyed it ceases to be; THEREFORE such destruction CANNOT be endless etc. The answer?… it is a literary device expressing the TOTALITY or COMPLETENESS of such an end… such is qualitative NOT quantitative.
So you think that the resurrection is about going to heaven at death?
Let’s look at what Jesus actually said:
Jesus said these words to show that there would be a resurrection of all his people at the last day. “I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:39,40,44,54). Though Jesus used the present tense,he used it to indicate that there would be a continuing life after the resurrection.
The Sadducees didn’t believe in the resurrection. They thought that when you die, you’re dead forever. And Paul indicated that that is true, if there is no resurrection. He wrote, "If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”(1 Cor 15:32)
Eusebius, the interpretation you have presented is news to me. I have never heard of this before. On he contrary, to put it mildly, Jesus was telling them to get their heads out of the sand. I believe He was saying “Open your eyes and take a good look around. This place is a mess. Is this the kind of life God offers. Does it look like a land flowing with milk and honey as spoken of in the scriptures? Where is the fruit of the Spirit? Put the book down and go do the works I told you to do!”
Back to the topic of free will. I don’t know if you have kids, but your viewpoint would not fly at my house.
“Now, why did you hit your sister?”
"God willed me to do it.’
“Oh really? [spank] Well,what do ya know. God works in mysterious ways, and He just suddenly up and willed me to spank you, so the next time you know that it is against God’s will for you to hit your sister!”
I’m a bit confused. Is it God or Satan who wills us to do evil? Or is it God who wills Satan who then wills us to do evil? Or are they both willing us to do evil at the same time?
Well, there is God’s will and God’s intention. People everyday resist His will but in so doing they fulfill His intention.
It is the same with the law of Moses and the Israelites. God’s will was that they do the law. They thought they could do the law. They failed to keep the law. It was God’s intention that they fail at keeping the law. So God kept spanking them. It didn’t take Satan to keep them from doing the law. It took their flesh. Their flesh is at enmity to God and cannot do the law and is not subject to the law (read Romans 8. It’s all there). There is “will” “thelema” in Greek and there is “intention” which is “boulema”. In Romans 9:19 boulema is used. “Who hath withstood His intention?” Actuall, no one.
Let’s look at Judas. It was written concerning him that he would sell Christ for 30 pieces of silver, that a plot of land would be purchased for that money and that Judas would hang himself. It is not that the Scriptures just saw this in the future. The Scriptures declared it to be so since God declares the end from the beginning. Judas didn’t have a chance to get out of his situation. Yet Judas’ actions are justified since, due to what he did comes our salvation.
Now as to free will as it relates to salvation, it is impossible for anyone to save themselves. Our will which God created us with, is against God. It runs from God. “All avoid Him.” So God is the one Who has to override our will, open our heart to see the truth of the evangel and seal us with the spirit of promise.
Here’s what I am missing here from Eusebius: a positional paper. In other words, a document of a few pages, outlining what you believe and why.
Jeff has done this, in a thread he started
I have a link to theology, in my signature
Davo has essays on his website and the same goes for Eaglesway
Paidion I know gets stuff from places like Greggory McDonald, Historic premillennialism and open theism (all established positions, by the way)
Geoffrey gets his position from Eastern Orthodoxy (with some universal twists, he throws in)
St. Michael follows the Roman Catholic position (more or less), from last I heard
Etc.
If we had a positional paper or document at the beginning, this whole discussion might be less confusing. And everyone might know, where you are coming from. Even a Holy Fool theologian and P-Zombie philosopher like me - might understand it then.
As someone who has been an academic bum (either part time or full time), and has taken courses in literature, philosophy and theology - positional papers are a must. And computer science and math courses, have also taught me to think. And creative writing classes, taught me how to express myself. And psychology has taught me about behavior.
I follow the historical Christian, Holy Fools tradition. Which had its start, in the Russian Orthodox church. As such, you can’t put it in a box, and expect folks embracing it - to conform to societies norms and customs.
If you have studied logic at all (which I have, in philosophy courses, as well as mathematics and computer science), then you would know what this statement I said means:
Anyone can go to a Wiki article at List of fallacies and pick one or more out.
If something comes from an established position, I might delay an answer. I prefer giving the best answer, after I research the topic - even if I have an immediate answer. Sometimes, some scholar gives a better answer. Sometimes, a person here is looking for an emotional response - to start an argument. But I have been trained in the martial arts, psychology, and Zen. So I also know that delaying an answer, can sometimes frustrate someone, who gets emotional about things (we all do at times - despite our training). But if someone tries to bait me - into an immediate emotional response - they have another thing coming.
If you wish to know whether unholy angels and Satan can be destroyed, then read the Biblical exegesis and theological positional papers at Satan’s Death and Satan’s Fate. I can definitely find other works on this topic!
If I were to side with a position of hard theological determinism, it would be from one of the professionals mentioned at Theological Determinism. At least someone like Derk Pereboom, have written positional papers on the topic. And critics have written rebuttal papers. But I also note, that hard theological determinists (like full Preterists), are small in number. And I think most (if not all) hard theological determinists, who are professional philosophers, are really playing Devil’s Advocate.
Here’s also a link to how P-Zombies, fit into Universalism at P-Zombies and Universalism. It’s every bit as sound, as someone presenting a position of hard theological determinism and universalism - for example (especially, an RYO or Roll Your Own variation). Perhaps I should open a separate thread - regarding this position?
Sometimes people use the language of ‘prescriptive’ and ‘sovereign’ will to distinguish between God’s will revealed to us in his 1) commands to mankind and his 2) sovereign decrees. One important caveat is that mankind cannot sin and then blame God for our actions, Romans 9:19. I think the best way to understand God’s sovereignty in this question is NOT that his will pushes good people into sin. In fact, it is his grace that keeps us from sin. However, instead God in order to demonstrate forgiveness does let sinners loose and we then choose sin because of our sinful natures. Many who object to God’s sovereignty over evil miss this point and think that they are good people whom God sentenced to sin. However, we sin because we are sinners. God forbid that he would let us loose to maximize our sinful desires! Now of course there is still the question of original sin and our sinful natures. The Scripture is clear that God is sovereign over these things also. However, we have debated that before as well.
Did Jesus have a positional paper for the Pharisees and Sadducees?
It is enough that you have what I have stated from the Scriptures. If that is not enough, nothing will be. If you want to read more, you may go to Concordant.org and read the book “The Problem of Evil and The Judgments of God” at concordant.org/expositions/problem-evil-judgments-god-contents/
There is plenty in that book on God’s sovereignty and man’s lack of it.
Eusebius, If the leaders of Israel were really looking for eternal life, they would have been living the word of God in the Spirit. Yes, scripture tells us of God, but we see Him at work in the world around us because He dwells in the heart of a person.As Matthew 25:35 states “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in.” etc. etc. Unfortunately, they did not recognize the living word of God standing right in front of them. They were busy scouring the scripture, trying to find Him. However, I believe Jesus basically caught them in the act of their own deceitfulness, and this is what he was referring to. They weren’t really seeking God, it was all a pretense anyway, “You serve Me with your lips, but your heart is far from Me.”
On another note: I finally agree with what you say about positional papers. Jesus didn’t have to write a paper. He was the Living Word of God, and I suppose if we live the word as He did, our position would be known to all. When it comes to speaking about the afterlife, I see a lot theory and conjecture. Has anyone been upstairs to see what is going on up there?
I like that way of presenting this complicated issue.
I see God’s intention(boulema) like a massive river within which there are lesser currents but moving inexoriably towards a single destination. Within it His will(thelema) works out that intention according to individual actions and reactions that do not always appear to serve Him, but do.
His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. Rev 1:15
and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.Ez 43:2
God sees that river from its source all the way to its oceanic end from the beginning to the end, He sees the end from the beginning. He has fore ordained that and as Peter put it, we are chosen “according to foreknowledge”
"To the elect, exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2chosen by the foreknowledge of God the Father "
The river is gathering every soul ever created according to Eph 1, along the duration of the generations of the ages, with a final destination iin which God is “all in all”
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention(eudokia) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
Christ Crucified is the “gravity” of that current(boulema) eventually drawing all other currents into itself…
“If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me”
The mystery of God’s thelema being worked out through the administration of the fulness of times…
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Chosen “according to the foreknowledge of God”, all things working together for good, neither height nor depth nor principality nor power nor life nor death can separate us from the love of God because the current of that river overwhelms every impediment as transitory “death will be swallowed up in immortality”
Alpha- “As in Adam all died…”
Omega- …so also in Christ shall all be made alive…"
Beta thru Psi “…but each in his own order”
thelema "For He(Christ) must reign until He(Father) has placed every enemy under His(Christ) feet…
boulema “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting(not intending- boulomenos) anyone to perish(be lost apolesthai), but everyone to come to repentance.”
Dear HFPZ, common sense, if all else fails, should settle the matter, not someone’s published paper. For instance, if Satan is being tormented for the eons of the eons, how can he be destroyed in that lake of fire? Let’s just say he was being tickled for the eons of the eons. Would you say he was destroyed? Let’s say he was laughing for the eons of the eons. Does that equate to destruction? Or let’s say as long as he was in the lake of fire he was drawing pictures on his Etch-a-Sketch. Would that prove he was destroyed?
Eusebius, in response to my post you said “No, until Christ came the leaders of Israel were still under the old covenant of the law.” I 'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
I’m trying to say that they thought they could get life through the law. But as Paul, the Jew, the apostle of the nations said: “The law is death chiseled in stone.” Christ was trying to show them He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Anyone can say anything. And you making that statement does not disprove that if Satan is playing checkers for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire, that that proves he is not destroyed in the lake of fire.
Since he is tormented for the eons of the eons in the lake of fire that proves he is not destroyed in the lake of fire.
Eusebious is simply noting that Satan and the unredeemed are not annihilated because otherwise they would not be tormented in the LOF. If they are tormented they are alive and conscious.
Of course a more important objection from me is that God’s grace can hardly claim the victory if he loses even one of the redeemed to annihilation. What wimpy grace is that… if it does not have the power to forgive and convert his chosen! What wimply grace is that… if it does not have the power to overwhelm a sinner’s stubborn will to make him willing to worship and obey! Why that would be like a wimply dad who didn’t have the wits to get his stubborn 2 year old kid to eat good food. Though perhaps there are wimpy dad’s, but God is not one of them!
As it says, They were SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURES, for in them (the scriptures) they thought there was eternal life. Eternal life is found in the heart. If we are not following God(love, compassion, truth, justice) and practicing these things, searching more scripture is not going to help. Wisdom does not come from simply reading about something. To understand scripture, one must have wisdom.
or not thinking. However… “One cannot be tormented if one is destroyed.” Given that an age is not endless then the potential for eventual “destruction” is likely there. But even so, this could be a simple literary device expressing the utter end one was said to be coming to; not dissimilar to the “everlasting destruction” of 2Thess 1:9, which in and of itself self is an oxymoron, i.e., as you allude, if something is destroyed it ceases to be; THEREFORE such destruction CANNOT be endless etc. The answer?… it is a literary device expressing the TOTALITY or COMPLETENESS of such an end… such is qualitative NOT quantitative.
Is it God or Satan who wills us to do evil? Or is it God who wills Satan who then wills us to do evil? Or are they both willing us to do evil at the same time?
Jesus didn’t have to write a paper. He was the Living Word of God, and I suppose if we live the word as He did, our position would be known to all. When it comes to speaking about the afterlife, I see a lot theory and conjecture. Has anyone been upstairs to see what is going on up there?