Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

[Eusebius]

Eusebius, in response to my post you said “No, until Christ came the leaders of Israel were still under the old covenant of the law.” I 'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

I’m trying to say that they thought they could get life through the law. But as Paul, the Jew, the apostle of the nations said: “The law is death chiseled in stone.” Christ was trying to show them He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

As it says, They were SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURES, for in them (the scriptures) they thought there was eternal life. Eternal life is found in the heart. If we are not following God(love, compassion, truth, justice) and practicing these things, searching more scripture is not going to help. Wisdom does not come from simply reading about something. To understand scripture, one must have wisdom.

No, Christ commanded them to search the Scriptures:

Joh 5:39** Search the scriptures**, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,

Also, eternal life is not found in the heart. God has to give eonian life. If He has to give it, it does not originally inhere within the individual’s heart.

[Eusebius]

Eusebious is simply noting that Satan and the unredeemed are not annihilated because otherwise they would not be tormented in the LOF. If they are tormented they are alive and conscious.

I’m curious why you get such a simple idea but the others don’t?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@Eusebius

@jeff@dgjc.org

Eusebious is simply noting that Satan and the unredeemed are not annihilated because otherwise they would not be tormented in the LOF. If they are tormented they are alive and conscious.

I’m curious why you get such a simple idea but the others don’t?

Since Satan is neither a relative**, nor **a friend of mine, I don’t want to devote discussion to his fate. Especially when - because of Halloween - the SciFy channel is devoting an entire several days - to monsters, zombies, vampires, etc.

Although one thought is offered, by the United Church of God at Are Some Tortured Forever in a Lake of Fire?:

Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Greek phrase translated “forever and ever” here, eis tous aionas ton aionon, literally means “unto the ages of the ages.” While this might mean for eternity, it could also mean until the culmination of the ages, which would allow for an ending point soon after the casting into the fire.

I’m sure I could find, other alternative explanations. It just shows that other Church groups hold this viewpoint. And probably have sound Biblical explanations, how this might be accomplished. But I have a priority - with the horror movies.

This reminds me of a Grateful Dead Song.

or

youtube.com/watch?v=b9SKxL9CnW0

[davo]

No, Christ commanded them to search the Scriptures:

Joh 5:39** Search the scriptures**, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,

Eusebius… you’ve stated this a few times now and it is simply not correct, it is not true. This was not a “command” as you say. Jesus was pointing to the fact that they (you, 2nd person plural) missed in their search of the Scriptures the one to whom such pointed; himself. It was NOT a command, i.e., it is NOT in the vocative.

[Eusebius]

No, Christ commanded them to search the Scriptures:

Joh 5:39** Search the scriptures**

, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,
Eusebius… you’ve stated this a few times now and it is simply not correct, it is not true. This was not a “command” as you say. Jesus was pointing to the fact that they (you, 2nd person plural) missed in their search of the Scriptures the one to whom such pointed; himself. It was NOT a command, i.e., it is NOT in the vocative.

“Search the Scriptures” is in the imperative. Just like “Take out the trash” is in the imperative, thus also “Search the Scriptures” is.

[Eusebius]

Eusebious is simply noting that Satan and the unredeemed are not annihilated because otherwise they would not be tormented in the LOF. If they are tormented they are alive and conscious.

I’m curious why you get such a simple idea but the others don’t?

Since Satan is neither a relative**, nor **a friend of mine, I don’t want to devote discussion to his fate. Especially when - because of Halloween - the SciFy channel is devoting an entire several days - to monsters, zombies, vampires, etc.

Although one thought is offered, by the United Church of God at Are Some Tortured Forever in a Lake of Fire?:

Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Greek phrase translated “forever and ever” here, eis tous aionas ton aionon, literally means “unto the ages of the ages.” While this might mean for eternity, it could also mean until the culmination of the ages, which would allow for an ending point soon after the casting into the fire.

It doesn’t matter what the United Church of God believes if it is not in line with what the Scriptures teach as to the durative aspect of the lake of fire.

Just as “ages of the ages” means the greatest ages of all the ages which went before, thus the Holies of the Holies are the two greatest Holies of the Holy parts of the tabernacle the high priest went through. Just as “Holies of the Holies” does not imply "Holies tumbling upon Holies for infinity, thus "ages of the ages does not imply that idea.

Satan being tormented proves he is not destroyed in the lake of fire. Torment has to do with the mind, not the body. His mind is tormented by the thought of being incarcerated for so long a time. But one day he will be reconciled to God.

I’m sure I could find, other alternative explanations. It just shows that other Church groups hold this viewpoint. And probably have sound Biblical explanations, how this might be accomplished. But I have a priority - with the horror movies.

I’m sure you could find plenty of alternative explanations. But that does not make them correct. One has to be correct.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I’m sure you could find plenty of alternative explanations. But that does not make them correct. One has to be correct.

That’s an assumption. And everybody thinks they (i.e. individual, theologian, church, etc.), has the correct doctrine. Which is why Christianity is a house divided - at times (more often,then not). But if you believe you have discovered the truth - that everyone else has missed - fine. If it works for you - run with it.

[Eusebius]

I’m sure you could find plenty of alternative explanations. But that does not make them correct. One has to be correct.

That’s an assumption. And everybody thinks they (i.e. individual, theologian, church, etc.), has the correct doctrine. Which is why Christianity is a house divided - at times (more often,then not). But if you believe you have discovered the truth - that everyone else has missed - fine. If it works for you - run with it.

Well it just makes sense . . . if Satan is tormented while he is in the lake of fire for the final two eons, it stands to reason he is not destroyed. It is not a matter of me assuming I am correct on this matter. I just don’t see how I am wrong on this specific matter. If you think I am, please show me how I am wrong.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@Eusebius

Well it just makes sense . . . if Satan is tormented while he is in the lake of fire for the final two eons, it stands to reason he is not destroyed. It is not a matter of me assuming I am correct on this matter. I just don’t see how I am wrong on this specific matter. If you think I am, please show me how I am wrong.

AND HOW - PRAY TELL - WOULD YOU AS A “NO FREE WILL” UNIVERSALIST - ESCAPE THE SAME TRAP

I think the United Church of God, gave a reasonable explanation at Are Some Tortured Forever in a Lake of Fire?:

Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the Greek phrase translated “forever and ever” here, eis tous aionas ton aionon, literally means “unto the ages of the ages.” While this might mean for eternity, it could also mean until the culmination of the ages, which would allow for an ending point soon after the casting into the fire.

But since you keep slapping my face, with a white glove…challenging me to a duel…

Let me become what Hannibal, of the A-Team says:

“I’m on the Jazz”

“You can’t make everyone happy. You are not a pizza.”-- Author Unknown

And I’m sure I could find other theologian’s and/or Church’s explanations. But I think those embracing conditional immortality, would say Satan and the Unholy angels - are also annihilated. And they would have reasonable scriptural explanations, to counter any objections you make. But horror movies take priority.

But let’s explore a sampling of explanations - shall we

I just read an interesting article at Is Hell Eternal Punishment, Eternal Death or Disciplinary Restoration?. In it, it says:

When speaking of the term “aion” (translated eternal when refering to Hell as seen in Revelation 20:10):

Adam Clarke translates it “To the ages of ages.”
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown “Unto ages of ages.”
Robert Young translates it "To the ages of [the] ages.

My research so far:

The question has been discussed, at a conditonal immortality forum at The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10
They also discuss this on Christian Forums at Annihilation and Revelation 20:10

For example, an answer in the Christian Forums thread shared this:

An answer using imagery:

With Revelation I think you have to look at the OT statements where he gets his imagery from. The imagery of smoke going up forever and ever is taken from a judgment against Edom. In reality Edom does not burn forever and ever. But it is a way of describing total destruction. Notice that right after it talks about burning pitch it talks about wild animals living there. They are just different descriptions of a totally blasted land.

And we see that some that embrace annihilation, might side with your literal view:

You don’t have to convince me. I am both a proponent and defender of Conditional Immortality.
I am just sincerely looking for what John meant by using the Phrase “Eis tous aionas ton aionon” in Revelation 20:10
Some annihilationists believe Satan and his Angels will be tormented for an etenity but not humans. By holding that viewpoint one undemines their viewpoint as it contradicts Ezekiel 28. And if God said he would annihilate Satan in EZ28 but actually meant torture forever, then nothing stops us from assuming that the same is for humans even though God said the wicked would be destroyed.

An answer from language (This is the S**cientific American **version, of the United Church of God’s, Readers Digest version):

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10).

[In the English, the passage reads sort of bad and seems to make a case for “eternal torments in the fire”, but in the Greek it is much easier to understand, for it is stating that the Devil shall burn consecutively (day/night), without ceasing [as there will be no reprieve in the interim], until he is gone [neither root nor branch, no more, ashes]

-“forever and ever” being the words “αιωναςG165 N-APM τωνG3588 T-GPM αιωνωνG165 N-GPM” (Esword app.) or “aiwnas twn aiwnwn” (w - omega) which actually means “time unto time or age unto age or period unto period”.

This more readily translates into a more structured English of “throughout” [the time specification not exactly given, but having an end, since scriptural context throughout [Ezekiel, Revelation etc] says Satan is to be no more].

So the immediate context gives no definitive timeframe, but rather a mere general instance of an unknown exact duration, but only that this state of being continues to exist as such in that state until finally over, and as the Bible attests to, the Devil will be brought to ashes and to naught. So while the text does not give the specific timeframe, it does not mean that it has to be even many days, and could be as few as 1-3 days, etc.

“…there was found no place for them.” [vs 11]

There are many passages which directly use the words “forever” in the context of eternal life for the saved and also of GOD who is immortal, eternal, and these do mean “forever, eternal, without end, etc.” but the context always dictates which use is meant, and for whom. There are other uses, which it means until one is dead, no longer with life, and others with other time spans [Jonah, etc]

Those who will receive eternal life, as the gift, shall live forever, but those who perish in the flames of the Second Death, are eternally gone, never having life again.

Hopefully this helps.

And we can even find an explanation from a group considered a cult (a position I agree with). But that doesn’t mean, they can’t come up, with a reasonable explanation. The Jehovah Witnesses at What Is the Lake of Fire? Is It the Same as Hell or Gehenna?:

How “tormented day and night forever and ever”?

If the lake of fire is a symbol of destruction, why does the Bible say that in it the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet “will be tormented day and night forever and ever”? (Revelation 20:10) Consider four reasons why this torment does not refer to literal torture:

For the Devil to be tortured eternally, he would have to be kept alive forever. However, the Bible says that he will be brought to nothing, or put out of existence.—Hebrews 2:14.
Everlasting life is a gift from God, not a punishment.—Romans 6:23.
The wild beast and the false prophet are symbols and cannot experience literal torture.
The context of the Bible indicates that the torment of the Devil is everlasting restraint or destruction.
The word used for “torment” in the Bible can also mean “a condition of restraint.” For example, the Greek word for “tormentors” used at Matthew 18:34 is rendered as “jailers” in many translations, showing the connection between the words “torment” and “restraint.” Likewise, the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:30, 31 equate “torment” with “the abyss,” a figurative place of complete inactivity or death. (Romans 10:7; Revelation 20:1, 3) In fact, several times the book of Revelation uses the word “torment” in a symbolic sense.—Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.

http://www.stus.com/images/products/blg6004.gif

The website Rethinking Hell, has also given a fuller explanation at Consistency in Preterism: Annihilation and Revelation 20:10. This is probably the fullest answer to that question, I found so far - from the Preterist perspective.

Here’s the response from The Case for Annihilationism

Tormented Day and Night. The most difficult passages for annihilationists to explain are Revelation 14:10-11 and 20:10. These passages speak of the wicked being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” However, these passages are not as decisive against the annihilationist’s view as they might initially seem. The phrase “forever and ever” can be translated “for ages upon ages” which implies an indefinite, but not necessarily unending, period of time. Even more fundamentally, it’s important to keep in mind that Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Its apocalyptic images shouldn’t be interpreted literally. This is particularly true of the phrase “forever and ever” since similar phrases are used elsewhere in Scripture in contexts where they clearly cannot literally mean “unending” (e.g. Gen 49:26; Ex 40:15; Nu 25:13; Ps 24:7).

Perhaps the most significant example of this for our purposes is Isaiah 34:9-10, for it closely parallels the two passages in Revelation. In this passage Isaiah says that the fire that shall consume Edom shall burn “[n]ight and day” and “shall not be quenched.” Its smoke “shall go up forever” and no one shall pass through this land again “forever and ever.” Obviously, this is symbolic, for the fire and smoke of Edom’s judgment isn’t still ascending today. If this is true of Isaiah, we should be less inclined to interpret similar expressions in the book of Revelation literally.

And even if we argue for a literal long period of time, the article also says this:

First, most annihilationists do not deny that the wicked will suffer, perhaps for long periods of time, prior to being annihilated. God’s justice shall be severe and ought to be dreaded

.

A full and thorough response, from a conditional immortality perspective, is found at A Primer on Revelation 20:10. Let me quote a little, what the article is about:

The explanation I would give, which many other conditionalists would give (in varying forms), is itself simple: John sees a vision where three beings are thrown into a lake of fire to be tormented for ever and ever, but the vision itself symbolizes the destruction of the things the images represent in real life.

Of course, while this idea itself is fairly simple, to really give a satisfactory explanation of and defense of it would be lengthy. Fortunately, this has been done by myself and other Rethinking Hell contributors (for free!).345 The goal in this article is to set the stage for those who are interested in conditionalism and would want to read further about this passage.

Like I’m told you before. There are reasonable biblical explanations, to your question, position and bible verse - regarding Satan.

[davo]

“Search the Scriptures” is in the imperative. Just like “Take out the trash” is in the imperative, thus also “Search the Scriptures” is.

As seems to be your standard MO you gravitate to the fringe… <ἐραυνάω> epaunaō is in the ‘indicate’ mood though can on occasion be rendered in the ‘imperative’, but the standard and vast bulk of translators in the instance of Jn 5:39 favour the ‘indicate’ mood BECAUSE of the structure of the rest of the sentence. THEY understand this as is evidenced by the vast bulk of translations demonstrated HERE.

Not only this… the “imperative” does NOT necessitate “a command” as you dictate but rather demonstrates an entreaty or an imploring as in… “ye must be born again” or “we implore you, be ye reconciled to God”. These are NOT “commands”!

Or as R.V.G. Tasker notes…

Search. The Greek verb can be taken either as imperative (so [size=85]AV[/size] following most earlier English translations) or as indicative (so [size=85]RV[/size] and [size=85]RSV[/size]). The latter would seem to make better sense in context. The Jews did not need to be exhorted to study the Scriptures; and the imperative makes it difficult to understand the causal clause which follows.

(emphasis mine)

[Eusebius]

“Search the Scriptures” is in the imperative. Just like “Take out the trash” is in the imperative, thus also “Search the Scriptures” is.

As seems to be your standard MO you gravitate to the fringe… <ἐραυνάω> epaunaō is in the ‘indicate’ mood though can on occasion be rendered in the ‘imperative’, but the standard and vast bulk of translators in the instance of Jn 5:39 favour the ‘indicate’ mood BECAUSE of the structure of the rest of the sentence. THEY understand this as is evidenced by the vast bulk of translations demonstrated HERE.

Not only this… the “imperative” does NOT necessitate “a command” as you dictate but rather demonstrates an entreaty or an imploring as in… “ye must be born again” or “we implore you, be ye reconciled to God”. These are NOT “commands”!

Or as R.V.G. Tasker notes…

Search.

The Greek verb can be taken either as imperative (so [size=85]AV[/size] following most earlier English translations) or as indicative (so [size=85]RV[/size] and [size=85]RSV[/size]). The latter would seem to make better sense in context. The Jews did not need to be exhorted to study the Scriptures; and the imperative makes it difficult to understand the causal clause which follows.(emphasis mine)

Actually John 5:39 “Search the Scriptures” is in the imperative mood per Thayer’s Greek Lexicon for that verse and your quote by Tasker agrees with me that it is imperative. Geesh!:

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2045: ἐρευνάω

ἐρευνάω, ἐρεύνω; 1 aorist ***imperative ***ἐρεύνησον; (ἡ ἐρευνᾷ a search); from Homer down; to search, examine into: absolutely, John 7:52; τί, John 5:39; Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Revelation 2:23 with which passage cf. Jeremiah 11:20; Jeremiah 17:10; Jeremiah 20:12; followed by an indirect question, 1 Peter 1:11 (2 Samuel 10:3; Proverbs 20:27). The form ἐραυνάω (which see in its place) T Tr WH have received everywhere into the text, but Lachmann only in Revelation 2:23. (Compare: ἐξερευνάω.)

In explaining the imperative we have this:
"The Imperative Mood:

This mood is reserved for the indication of commands." from: blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm

I’m just kind of curious if you believe anything in the Bible?

[davo]

…and your quote by Tasker agrees with me that it is imperative. Geesh!:

yeah… ONLY to the degree that you couldn’t get past the first [size=150]10[/size] words of his quote… oops!

Let me furnish you with the rest of Tasker’s quote beyond what I’ve already given the first time; hopefully you can track this to the end…

In fact, those who assume that the verb is imperative are obliged to regard the words in them ye think ye have eternal life as parenthetic, and to construe the words they are they which testify of me with for, giving the reason for which the command is given.

(emphasis mine).
The word… <ὅτι> hoti is better rendered “because” or “since” or possibly “that” as opposed to the introduced “for” as Tasker notes.
I also note your blueletterbible link says this… “The majority of all verbs used in the New Testament occur in the indicative mood.”

ἐρευνάω, ἐρεύνω; 1 aorist ***imperative ***ἐρεύνησον;

Well… to give you the EXACT rendering of Jn 5:39 <ἐρευνατε> ereunate or it’s variant <ἐραυνᾶτε> eraunate… HENCE the favoured “indicative” mood rendered the bulk of all those translations at that LINK I supplied above… did you even bother to check them out?

I’m just kind of curious if you believe anything in the Bible?

Believing the bible is easy… your amateurish and convoluted contortions thereafter, less so!

[Paidion]

Actually John 5:39 “Search the Scriptures” is in the imperative mood per Thayer’s Greek Lexicon for that verse and your quote by Tasker agrees with me that it is imperative. Geesh!:

That is not at all as definite as you seem to think. The second person plural ending in the imperative mode is exactly the same as the ending in the indicative mode. Thus from the ending alone, one cannot determine which it is. Virtually all the Greek sources I have consulted consider the word to be in the indicative mode. This seems to fit the context better.

Jesus says to the Jews, "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (vs 39,40)

The Jews think they will find eternal life in the scriptures. Those scriptures bear witness to Jesus the Messiah. Yet these same Jews will not come to Jesus in order to acquire eternal life.

Why would Jesus tell them to search the scriptures because they THINK that in them they have eternal life. If they THINK that, then they are already searching the scriptures.

The following version translate the statement this way or similarly, considering the verb to be in the infinitive mode, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life.”
ASV, Darby, Diaglot, EMTV, ESV, HCSB, LO, NASB, NKJV, Philips, Rotherham, RSV, WEB, Williams, WNT, YLT

I have found only four versions that translate the verb as if it is in the imperative mode: AV, Douay, Murdoch, and RWebster.

In my opinion, the context demands that it be translated as ins the indicative mode.

I’m just kind of curious if you believe anything in the Bible?

Which Bible? Is “the Bible” for you the AV (King James Version)?

Do you believe 1 John 5:7?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This sentence originally appeared as a note added to the text. Later, in the 9th century, it was brought into the text itself.

[jeff]

You guys are downright ridiculous.

I’ve always understood John 5:39 to mean that Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for their blind reading of the Scriptures. They read the Scriptures, but missed the point. And this argument might be missing the point as well. Someone earlier in the thread seemed to be making the point, if I understood correctly, that reading the Bible is of little or no value to get to know God. How ridiculous! Regardless of how one understands John 5:39 there are plenty of other verses that exhort us to read the Scriptures and that the Scriptures are valuable to know God. The Bible is God’s wonderful love letter to us! Certainly Jesus is not telling us to abandon the Scriptures in John 5:39. Instead, reading the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit and without a sincere desire to seek God can get one into trouble. That is what the Pharisees did. They used the Scriptures wrongly to justify themselves and condemn others, and perhaps to argue without even understanding why.

… and so what are we doing here again?

[davo]

I’ve always understood John 5:39 to mean that Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for their blind reading of the Scriptures. They read the Scriptures, but missed the point.

I couldn’t agree more Jeff.
My only reason for challenging Eusebius’ claim on that particular text in the first place was because he keeps making this bold “Christ commanded” assertion in support of further argument… and it just cannot legitimately be sustained; as I’ve shown by others more au fey with the texts than any of us. Even Paidion and see the issue at hand.

True, sparring can get a bit pointless… guilty as charged.

[LLC]

You guys are downright ridiculous.

I’ve always understood John 5:39 to mean that Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for their blind reading of the Scriptures. They read the Scriptures, but missed the point. And this argument might be missing the point as well. Someone earlier in the thread seemed to be making the point, if I understood correctly, that reading the Bible is of little or no value to get to know God. How ridiculous! Regardless of how one understands John 5:39 there are plenty of other verses that exhort us to read the Scriptures and that the Scriptures are valuable to know God. The Bible is God’s wonderful love letter to us! Certainly Jesus is not telling us to abandon the Scriptures in John 5:39. Instead, reading the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit and without a sincere desire to seek God can get one into trouble. That is what the Pharisees did. They used the Scriptures wrongly to justify themselves and condemn others, and perhaps to argue without even understanding why.

… and so what are we doing here again?

I may be guilty as charged as well. I was not suggesting that reading the Scriptures has little or no value. As I mentioned earlier, they are helpful and instructive in giving us a certain knowledge of God. I agree that Jesus was actually criticizing them.They had become self-righteous, thinking that because they studied the Scriptures, they knew it all, or as you mention, they were trying to justify themselves while condemning others. Understanding and wisdom are gained through experience of life. This is why Jesus exhorts us to be servants to one another; to be the living word of God as well.

[Eusebius]

Actually John 5:39 “Search the Scriptures” is in the imperative mood per Thayer’s Greek Lexicon for that verse and your quote by Tasker agrees with me that it is imperative. Geesh!:

That is not at all as definite as you seem to think. The second person plural ending in the imperative mode is exactly the same as the ending in the indicative mode. Thus from the ending alone, one cannot determine which it is. Virtually all the Greek sources I have consulted consider the word to be in the indicative mode. This seems to fit the context better.

Jesus says to the Jews, "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (vs 39,40)

The Jews think they will find eternal life in the scriptures. Those scriptures bear witness to Jesus the Messiah. Yet these same Jews will not come to Jesus in order to acquire eternal life.

Why would Jesus tell them to search the scriptures because they THINK that in them they have eternal life. If they THINK that, then they are already searching the scriptures.

The following version translate the statement this way or similarly, considering the verb to be in the infinitive mode, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life.”
ASV, Darby, Diaglot, EMTV, ESV, HCSB, LO, NASB, NKJV, Philips, Rotherham, RSV, WEB, Williams, WNT, YLT

I have found only four versions that translate the verb as if it is in the imperative mode: AV, Douay, Murdoch, and RWebster.

In my opinion, the context demands that it be translated as ins the indicative mode.

I’m just kind of curious if you believe anything in the Bible?

Which Bible? Is “the Bible” for you the AV (King James Version)?

Do you believe 1 John 5:7?

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This sentence originally appeared as a note added to the text. Later, in the 9th century, it was brought into the text itself.

I believe as do other Greek scholars that it is in the imperative mood. And that the Greek Scholars state:
In explaining the imperative we have this:
"The Imperative Mood:

This mood is reserved for the indication of commands." from: blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm

Whether some say it is in the indicative or imperative is actually leading away from the issue which was that if Jesus told them to search the Scriptures or told them “you search the Scriptures,” the point is that whatever they did in searching the Scriptures they thought they had life but they didn’t and Jesus was telling them that the very Scriptures they search spoke of Him. They couldn’t see Him in the Scriptures they were searching. Why? Because God didn’t give it to them to see as He did to others to see. They do not have a free will to see it. God has to give the understanding/insight/truth about Christ to them. THAT IS THE POINT I AM MAKING in this thread that has to do with freewillism and God’s sovereignty.

As a side note, in order to justify others here who say “Search the Scriptures” can be in the imperative mood:

This morning I searched Bagsters’s Analytical Greek Lexicon which says “search” in: “Search the Scriptures” is imperative as does Randolph O. Yeager’s “The Renaissance New Testament” but yet another work stated it is indicative. It seems there are issues with this text in the original mss. Interesting that I find more that say it is imperative than indicative. So it is possible it can be taken both ways. There, now we can all get along, smile and have a happy day knowing we are both right.

[Eusebius]

You guys are downright ridiculous.

I’ve always understood John 5:39 to mean that Jesus is rebuking the Pharisees for their blind reading of the Scriptures. They read the Scriptures, but missed the point. And this argument might be missing the point as well. Someone earlier in the thread seemed to be making the point, if I understood correctly, that reading the Bible is of little or no value to get to know God. How ridiculous! Regardless of how one understands John 5:39 there are plenty of other verses that exhort us to read the Scriptures and that the Scriptures are valuable to know God. The Bible is God’s wonderful love letter to us! Certainly Jesus is not telling us to abandon the Scriptures in John 5:39. Instead, reading the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit and without a sincere desire to seek God can get one into trouble. That is what the Pharisees did. They used the Scriptures wrongly to justify themselves and condemn others, and perhaps to argue without even understanding why.

… and so what are we doing here again?

Excellent point. Thank you jeff.

I have heard over the years that we should not read the Bible and that those who do are committing idolatry. They always use the scripture (interesting that they use a scripture to warn us about reading the Scriptures ) in 2 Corinthians 3:6 that “the letter is killing.” So they take that out of its contextual setting and build a wrongful premise out of it. It is actually concerning the letter of the law that is killing for it is death chiseled in stone in the very next verse.

[jeff]

Thanks guys for receiving my words. If and when you need to rebuke me I hope I am as gracious.

So lets carry on with the good conversation. I’ve been enjoying it

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@jeff@dgjc.org

Thanks guys for receiving my words. If and when you need to rebuke me I hope I am as gracious.

So lets carry on with the good conversation. I’ve been enjoying it

Likewise.