Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

[Eusebius]

Well, we’ve gotten this far. How will God save all mankind if mankind cannot save themselves?

Inclusively, He put to death all mankind in the death of Christ, “consequently all died”

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, if One died for the sake of all, consequently all died."

The old humanity was crucified together with Him:
knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin, for one who dies has been justified from Sin (Rom 6:6-7).

Mankind, as a whole, is a neutral recipient of what two men did; Adam and Christ per Romans 5:18,19:

Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation,
thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life’s justifying."
For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners,
thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Rom 5:18-19)

So we see that through just one offense of Adam, all mankind are condemned (to a dying condition per 5:12) and that through one just or righteous act of Christ all mankind’s lives will be justified.

Through just one disobedient act of Adam, all mankind were made or constituted sinners, and through just one obedient act of Christ all mankind will be made or constituted just.

In Romans 5:19, “the many” is all mankind minus one: Christ. Christ was the only one not made a sinner due to what Adam did but He was condemned to die (on the cross) due to what Adam did.

So it is not about our choices that we get what we get due to the acts of Adam and Christ. We get what we get due to their acts, period. Fair is fair. Since all mankind can be made sinners due to what Adam did, then all mankind can be made righteous due to what Christ did.

[Paidion]

We need to examine the next verse in order to understand the real reason Christ died:

14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

[Eusebius]

We need to examine the next verse in order to understand the real reason Christ died:

14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

All will one day live for Him because their will was changed.

[Paidion]

All will one day live for Him because their will was changed.

That living for Him is for the here-and-now, Eusebius. That’s what the gospel is all about. Through Christ’s death and resurrection, we receive the enabling grace to overcome wrongdoing, and to live for Christ.

George MacDonald understood the difference between the false gospel so frequently preached and the true gospel (also preached but not so frequently):

—that I might win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. (Philippians 3:8,9)

WHAT does the apostle mean by the righteousness that is of God by faith? He means the same righteousness Christ had by his faith in God, the same righteousness which God himself has.

In his second epistle to the Corinthians he says, 'He hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in him;—‘He gave him to be treated like a sinner, killed and cast out of his own vineyard by his husbandmen, that we might in him be righteous like God.’ As the antithesis stands, it is rhetorically correct. But if the former half means, ‘he made him to be treated as if he were a sinner,’ then the latter half should, in logical precision mean, ‘that we might be treated as if we were righteous.’

‘That is just what Paul does mean,’ insist not a few. ‘He means that Jesus was treated by God as if he were a sinner, our sins being imputed to him, in order that we might be treated as if we were righteous, his righteousness being imputed to us.’

That is, that, by a sort of legal fiction, Jesus was treated as what he was not, in order that we might be treated as what we are not. This is the best device, according to the prevailing theology, that the God of truth, the God of mercy, whose glory is that he is just to men by forgiving their sins, could fall upon for saving his creatures! . . . They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice.

—George MacDonald, “Righteousness” in Unspoken Sermons III

[davo]

15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

This also is a key text in my understanding of the difference between the all-inclusive scope of God’s reconciling grace in Christ i.e., “and he died for all” AND the specific saving grace or life found by those who in faith grasp the calling of service to God in Christ i.e., “that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him.”

Paul likewise lays this truth out here…

Rom 5:10a For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,…

Generic application via “the death of His Son”…

Rom 5:10b …much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And then the specific application via “His life.” i.e., his resurrection. Believers experience IN THIS LIFE the benefits his resurrection life wrought.

[jeff]

and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

My 2 cents in two points.

1. Christ died for all and REDEEMED ALL mankind at the cross, both believing and unbelieving.
2. Most remain spiritually dead, though still forgiven, but some are Christians, THOSE who live purposeful lives for Christ NOW.
3. A bonus point, no charge… at the last day any who are not yet spiritually ALIVE will be THEN. Oh happy day!

[maintenanceman]

Davo said

This also is a key text in my understanding of the difference between the all-inclusive scope of God’s reconciling grace in Christ i.e., “and he died for all” AND the specific saving grace or life found by those who in faith grasp the calling of service to God in Christ i.e., “that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him.”

Good news does not get better

Thanks

[Paidion]

Paul likewise lays this truth out here…

Rom 5:10a For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,…

Generic application via “the death of His Son”…

Rom 5:10b …much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Paul indeed lays out the truth in Rom 5:10. When we were reconciled through the death of His Son, we entered the door of salvation. However, salvation is a life-long process. Having been reconciled, the process begins. From that starting point, “We shall be saved by his life”—the very life of our risen Lord then operates in us and through us.

[davo]

Paul indeed lays out the truth in Rom 5:10. When we were reconciled through the death of His Son, we entered the door of salvation. However, salvation is a life-long process. Having been reconciled, the process begins. From that starting point, “We shall be saved by his life”—the very life of our risen Lord then operates in us and through us.

I tease some of this out… HERE.

[Eaglesway]

God created man innocent, and therefore unaware of certain dynamics of love, like sacrifice for instance. Forgiveness would be another example.

God, imo, wanted a closer relationship with His creation from before the beginning… to share Himself because He is generous and joyous, to know us and have sweet intimate fellowship because He loves us.

“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” Ro 8

To me this one verse spans the whole plan of God, and His purpose- all creation as His friends… we were subject to futility, so we could be birthed into harmony and communion in the light.

“No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down His life for His friends”

We call friends those who like us, or we like, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother, with whom you can share anything in life, the deepest things. Jesus is the example of the greatest aspect of love, and the result is freindship of the deepest kind possible, union and communion in the harmony, beauty and joy of love. The Master showing us the way, the Shepherd allowing us to learn by experience.

“But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” 2 Cor 4

Light shining out of darkness, Glorious liberty birthed out of futility(chaos).

“In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters, and darkness covered the face of the deep”

IMO this is both literal (of primordial creation) and metaphorical(of how God works through chaos, btinging light out of darkness, in each individual and in the whole).

We could not know Him, really, without understanding the glory of His love(Christ crucified)- and the power of it.(Christ raised.

We could not know it unless we became of a condition where we could see, personally as individuals and corporately (as the family of creation), what He is measured by what He is not, so…

We passed from innocence to futility and were bound in mortality

"Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.… (Gen 3)

“We know the whole creation travails in childbirth even until now”- macro view

“My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—” (Gal 4:19)- micro view

The micro view is not lesser, it is the story of the individual building blocks of the new creation- lving stones in a tabernacle for the Spirit of God, that will eventually enfold all creation.

"So we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness(2 Peter 3)

He destroys hate by contrasting it with love. He destroys the natural man by planting the spiritual man in a soul, a soul full of futility, and bringing that light up out of the darkness(darkness was upon the face of the deep, light will shine out of darkness)

It is often painful, as the natural man breaks down and the spirtual man lives ever more in the image of Christ, laying down his life for his friends, instead of taking it up… forgiving as Christ forgave, untill all have seen that light and been translatred out of the kingdom of darkness ibto the kingdom of His glorious light.

Its a process, never over in this life- and the reward is knowing Him, and loving one another, and loving all.

[jeff]

Paul indeed lays out the truth in Rom 5:10. When we were reconciled through the death of His Son, we entered the door of salvation.

This statement needs clarification. Who is the we?

Yes all mankind is acquitted from condemnation and guaranteed an eternal home in Heaven strictly on the basis of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, whether believing or unbelieving. Yes that is true. However, the unbeliever has not yet had a change of heart toward their Heavenly Father. So yes, God has surrounded them with the loving protection from condemnation found INSIDE of Christ. HOWEVER, unbelievers have not willingly entered the door of salvation yet. They are unbelieving. The are deeply loved by God and forgiven, but they remain blind to the fact.

[Eusebius]

All will one day live for Him because their will was changed.

That living for Him is for the here-and-now, Eusebius. That’s what the gospel is all about. Through Christ’s death and resurrection, we receive the enabling grace to overcome wrongdoing, and to live for Christ.

The gospel/evangel/good news is not just concerning here and now but concerning the future eons as well when all (in the future) will be headed up in Christ, all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, in Him, in Whom our (the believer’s) lot was cast also.

George MacDonald understood the difference between the false gospel so frequently preached and the true gospel (also preached but not so frequently):

—that I might win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. (Philippians 3:8,9)

WHAT does the apostle mean by the righteousness that is of God by faith? He means the same righteousness Christ had by his faith in God, the same righteousness which God himself has.

In his second epistle to the Corinthians he says, 'He hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in him;—‘He gave him to be treated like a sinner, killed and cast out of his own vineyard by his husbandmen, that we might in him be righteous like God.’ As the antithesis stands, it is rhetorically correct. But if the former half means, ‘he made him to be treated as if he were a sinner,’ then the latter half should, in logical precision mean, ‘that we might be treated as if we were righteous.’

‘That is just what Paul does mean,’ insist not a few. ‘He means that Jesus was treated by God as if he were a sinner, our sins being imputed to him, in order that we might be treated as if we were righteous, his righteousness being imputed to us.’

That is, that, by a sort of legal fiction, Jesus was treated as what he was not, in order that we might be treated as what we are not. This is the best device, according to the prevailing theology, that the God of truth, the God of mercy, whose glory is that he is just to men by forgiving their sins, could fall upon for saving his creatures! . . . They say first, God must punish the sinner, for justice requires it; then they say he does not punish the sinner, but punishes a perfectly righteous man instead, attributes his righteousness to the sinner, and so continues just. Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! Justice could not treat a righteous man as an unrighteous; neither, if justice required the punishment of sin, could justice let the sinner go unpunished. To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. No wonder unbelief is rampant. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice.

—George MacDonald, “Righteousness” in Unspoken Sermons III

I really like George. I’m not sure if his idea of “imputation” is the same as “substitution.” I believe in inclusion, not substitution.

Nonetheless, when Christ died, all died. It doesn’t say “when Christ died only Baptists died,” or “when Christ died only Christians died.” “Christ died for all, consequently all died.” Nor does it say that all died if they only choose to die when Christ died. The human will is null and void in this.

I don’t believe “Christ was treated as if he were not” as a sort of legal fiction according to McDonald. The Bible says “He Who knew no sin became sin”. Some translations say “He Who knew no sin became a sin offering” but “offering” is not in any Greek text I know of. God not only placed the sin of all mankind upon the head of the spotless lamb which took our sins away, He also killed the old humanity when Christ was killed. God had to put the old humanity to death so that a new humanity, a new creation could come. All mankind will eventually be included in the new creation in Christ Jesus. Those whom God has given faith come first to be in Christ.

Also, “Cursed is everyone hanging on a pole.” Christ was not just cursed as a legal fiction but really was cursed. God forsook Him. We may never know the extreme heart wrenching emotions God and Christ went through to save us.

[maintenanceman]

Paul indeed lays out the truth in Rom 5:10. When we were reconciled through the death of His Son, we entered the door of salvation.

This statement needs clarification. Who is the we?

Yes all mankind is acquitted from condemnation and guaranteed an eternal home in Heaven strictly on the basis of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, whether believing or unbelieving. Yes that is true. However, the unbeliever has not yet had a change of heart toward their Heavenly Father. So yes, God has surrounded them with the loving protection from condemnation found INSIDE of Christ. HOWEVER, unbelievers have not willingly entered the door of salvation yet. They are unbelieving. The are deeply loved by God and forgiven, but they remain blind to the fact.

So to clarify, the unbeliever has guaranteed salvation (in the common evangelical sense=heaven) but it has not kicked in because of his/her unbelief? Or are they just blind to the fact (as you say) in this temporal life and salvation (heaven) is waiting for them at their temporal death?

Thanks

[jeff]

So to clarify, the unbeliever has guaranteed salvation (in the common evangelical sense=heaven) but it has not kicked in because of his/her unbelief?

Yes, certainly. Even common evangelicals recognize that salvation is multi-dimensional. Unbelievers are not yet saved from the power of sin ruling their hearts because they remain unregenerate in their birth nature and are not born again. However, the mistake of evangelicals is to assume that unbelievers are then not spared final condemnation. Instead we know that even if an individual remains in unbelief that their name is still secure in Heaven because Christ died for them as well.

Or are they just blind to the fact (as you say) in this temporal life

Also yes certainly. If someone is unbelieving they are blind to to the good news by definition. Of course the metaphor of ‘blindness’ is not my own, but Jesus used it often enough

and salvation (heaven) is waiting for them at their temporal death?

Almost, but not quite. The Scripture also explain that there is temporal punishment after death. However, after temporal punishment in Hades, the remainder of unbelieving mankind’s eyes will be opened at the GWT, and eternal salvation realized.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@jeff@dgjc.org

Almost, but not quite. The Scripture also explain that there is temporal punishment after death. However, after temporal punishment in Hades, the remainder of unbelieving mankind’s eyes will be opened at the GWT.

I wish folks would spell out their terms. A Holy Fool and P-Zombie, might think it stands for the Greenwich Weekly Time or the Google Web Toolkit . I think you mean the** Great White Throne**

[maintenanceman]

jeff wrote:

MM said: So to clarify, the unbeliever has guaranteed salvation (in the common evangelical sense=heaven) but it has not kicked in because of his/her unbelief?

Yes, certainly. Even common evangelicals recognize that salvation is multi-dimensional. Unbelievers are not yet saved from the power of sin ruling their hearts because they remain unregenerate in their birth nature and are not born again. However, the mistake of evangelicals is to assume that unbelievers are then not spared final condemnation. Instead we know that even if an individual remains in unbelief that their name is still secure in Heaven because Christ died for them as well.

So you are barking up my alley… You said

Unbelievers are not yet saved from the power of sin ruling their hearts because they remain unregenerate in their birth nature and are not born again

and yet to my inquiry you said:
(me) So to clarify, the unbeliever has guaranteed salvation (in the common evangelical sense=heaven) but it has not kicked in because of his/her unbelief?

Yes, certainly

But you said…

Instead we know that even if an individual remains in unbelief that their name is still secure in Heaven because Christ died for them as well.

I AM CONFUSED

[maintenanceman]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/children-spelling-spelling_test-text_message-text_messaging-abbreviations-aba0628_low.jpg

Almost, but not quite. The Scripture also explain that there is temporal punishment after death. However, after temporal punishment in Hades, the remainder of unbelieving mankind’s eyes will be opened at the GWT.

I wish folks would spell out their terms. A Holy Fool and P-Zombie, might think it stands for the Greenwich Weekly Time or the Google Web Toolkit . I think you mean the** Great White Throne**

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/education-teaching-alphabet-word-spelling-assembly-letters-mcan545_low.jpg

Yepper

[jeff]

I AM CONFUSED

What is the confusion?

[maintenanceman]

Paul indeed lays out the truth in Rom 5:10. When we were reconciled through the death of His Son, we entered the door of salvation. However, salvation is a life-long process. Having been reconciled, the process begins. From that starting point, “We shall be saved by his life”—the very life of our risen Lord then operates in us and through us.

I tease some of this out… HERE.

Good stuff

[maintenanceman]

I AM CONFUSED

What is the confusion?

Well look at the post!