If that is what david believes, I agree with you Michael. There is no healing reading about or watching someone get tortured and beat to death. Scripture is very clear what that was about, and it was a historical account of what the Law did to Jesus but how Jesus used that against the Law to defeat it.
Hello? Is anybody out there?
THIS IS NOT WHAT DAVID BELIEVES. PERIOD.
How is it even anywhere near what I wrote above?
I don’t think that is what you believe, david, I said if what Michael wrote was what you believed, then of course I agree with Michael. Though I believe Michael doesn’t know what Jesus did in the first place, he is still comparing what he ‘learned’ about Christianity and thinks we somehow believe that.
You said, “An alternative view is that God allowed us (people) to kill God himself in the person of Jesus so that God himself could reciprocate with forgiveness and grace thereby proving he is the exact opposite of a bloodthirsty killer.”
This I agree with. Humanity invented a law and submitted themselves to it, claiming it was from God. God allowed this in order to show that He is God of Love. I think your use of words didn’t really clarify for Michael, because Michael doesn’t know that nowhere did God ever prescribe blood for the forgiveness of sins, but the Law of Moses did.
AUniversalist,
Thank you for clearing that up. I hope what you have written will help Michael_Cole see that God really is ALL good.
Hey David. I guess I misunderstood you. I apologize
AUniversalist,
Hebrews 9:22 -
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
This is the fundamental principle (Lev17:11), now restated after being introduced in vv. 16-18. Having established it, the writer turns his attention from the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly.
Hebrews 9:23 -
the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices.
The heavenly sanctuary itself does not need to be purified from defilement by human sin. However, just as the earthly sanctuary was purified by sacrificial blood and set apart as the place where sinful people could approach God, so also the true, heavenly sanctuary has now been set apart by the sacrifice of Christ as a meeting place for sinful people to enter, drawing near to God through the blood of Jesus.
Hebrews 10:19 -
Therefore brothers since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way.
Hebrews 10:24 -
Jesus the new mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Ephesians 1:7 -
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses
Matthew 26:28 -
This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Now, what is the connection between blood and forgiveness?
I figured it out.
Why there is blood in the atonement
Lev. 17:11 -
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.
The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death. When we sin we die spiritualy. It’s also a fact that life is in the blood. When the blood of God was poured out it gave us spiritual life thereby washing away our sins. If we come to God and confess our sins He will forgive us and cleanse us. God is pleased with the precious blood of Christ because it cleanses us of our sins. He’s not bloodthirsty.
double post
Yes, Michael,
He is not bloodthirsty. Also, as I mentioned before, the Law required blood and even you don’t realize it was, everything in Genesis is the Law. Why do you think it is called, “Hebrews” and why is it all your verses (except one) came from the book of Hebrews? The Ephesians verse? It says literally, Jesus’s blood was poured out for the forgiveness of ‘paraptōma’, a lapse or deviation from what is true. What was that lapse or deviation; it was the Law, the written code.
Romans 7:4-7 (New American Standard Bible)
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Who gave the Law?
John 7:19
[Jesus said] Did not Moses give you the Law? …]
John 8:5
[The Lawyers said] Now Moses in the Law commanded us …]
Luke 20:28
[The Lawyers said] Teacher, Moses wrote for us the law …]
John 8:17
[Jesus said] In your own Law it is written …]
John 10:34
Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law …]
Mark 10:5
[Jesus said] Because of your hardness of heart Moses wrote you this precept in your Law.
Jesus never identified with the Law, nor did call it God’s Law or His Law, or anything. Many times Jesus pointed out that it was Moses who wrote them this Law, and many times the Lawyers admitted Moses wrote them this Law. The Lawyers, Pharisees and Sadducees all followed and obeyed the Law.
John 8:43-45
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
Christianity wants you to believe that Jesus is talking about a fallen celestial arch-angel named Lucifer; but, that is not the case according to the Scriptures.
1 John 3:7-9
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This Scripture is difficult, but the sin mentioned here is not talking about breaking the ten commandments. He is talking about the knowledge of Good and Evil as written called the Law. Which stands in accusation of all men, the Accuser also known as…
Revelation 12:9-11
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his messengers were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the Accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
Now let us not confuse the two 'Law’s. There is the Law of Moses, and then there is the Law of God (which is the Law of Life in Christ Jesus). The Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life.
Well, the way I’m starting to see this is that God is holy and just. Because God is just He doesn’t let sin go unpunished. Not to punish sin would be unjust and a lie would reign at the core of reality. The reason the punishment (done through evil men) was so severe is because all the sins of all people was laid on Christ. That’s alot of sin! We are in a mystical union with Christ entered in by faith. This is how our sins can become Christ’s. When our sins are laid on the innocent Christ He suffers and bleeds thereby showing His love and compassion. Since there is life in the blood, when the blood of God is poured out Christ dies but is then resurrected. Because of our mystical union with Christ the blood of God is poured out as we are given new life and our sins are expiated. When we confess our sins to God and each other we are cleansed in the blood and are forgiven. We crucify the old self and raise to new life.
God is just and sin has been punished. Just is just, but it is not without mercy and is always administered with grace. If a person continues to try to justify themselves by the Law, they will be punished.
Romans 2:12
All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.
Galatians 3:10
And all who depend on the Law [who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals] are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction, for it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed (accursed, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment) be everyone who does not continue to abide (live and remain) by all the precepts and commands written in the Book of the Law and to practice them.
If you define sin according to the Law, then you sin under the Law and condemned by the Law…
Romans 3:19
Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.
We are not under the Law, Michael, unless you submit yourself back to it. Your definition of sin is not the same as mine because I am not under the Law.
Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
Therefore, since God is just, I am judged by no man, nor am I judged by the Law and therefore what you think is sin, has no relevance to my situation and I will never be ‘punished’ for it.
The only lie is the one who continues to think that sin reigns, and that we are all subject to the Law.
I’m not sure what you mean by justify yourself by the law. What do you mean by this? I believe God canceled the legal demands of the law by nailing it to the cross:
Col. 2:13 -
And you, who were dead in your trespasses…God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the cross.
So where is the punishment?
What do you mean?
Here’s a few things that I believe God and Christ were doing at the cross as they were showing their love and grace for sinners:
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Removing God’s wrath from our vision so that we could see Divine beauty
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Canceling the legal demands of the law against us
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Forgiving our sins
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Providing the basis for our justification
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Abolishing all rituals as the basis of salvation
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Taking away our condemnation
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Healing us from moral sickness
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Freeing us from the slavery of sin and death
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Enabling us to die to the law and live in love for God and each other
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Freeing us from the bondage of fear
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Defeating satan and his evil forces and death as He is resurrected
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Rescuing us from final judgment
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Showing us that the worst evil is meant by God for good.
This issue is bigger than that, but God’s wrath is specifically held against those who supress the Truth. (Romans 1:17-19)
The gentiles were never under the Law, there was not legal demands of the law against us. The legal demands Jesus fulfilled weren’t even written by God, or administered by Him. They were written by a man and administered by men. I have been showing you this above.
So the question remains, where is the punishment except to those who sumbit themselves under a law the outlines it?
This is directly attributed to the Law, sin is transgression of the Law. We are free from the Law and it’s legal demands against us (if we were Hebrew) and we were always free from the Law if we were gentile.
So where is the punishment?
Forgetting the above for a moment, if we are justified.
Where is the punishment?
That is the Law, which I touched on above.
Where is the punishment? Furthermore, salvation was never in our hands to begin with.
Since gentiles were never under the Law, they are also never condemned under the Law. Scripture is also very clear on this.
Where is the punishment?
Indeed.
I agree, perhaps not for the same reasons you wrote this though.
Well many of us are not alive to the law to die to it since it was never ours in the first place.
Yes.
First you need to know what Satan is, and what evil forces are his messengers. But He did defeat Satan (the Religion based on the Laws of men [specifically of Moses]), and his evil forces (false teachers claiming to be from God but are not [like the Pharisee, Lawyer and Saducee of the Sanhedrin.])
Judgment of what?
The onological nature of God is Good, an uncreated inherit nature. Evil is a created thing of which works for the purpose in which it was created. He never meant evil for good, God purpose for all humanity, has always been Good. He does not fail, none will be lost, and none will be censored. Evil still remains evil.
There is perhaps a lot that needs to be covered, but God’s wrath is against those who supress the truth by continuing to live by the veil of the Law of men (the flesh).
Isaiah 53:
He was wounded for our transgressions;
He was crushed for our iniquities
Upon Him was the punishment that brought us peace,
and with His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all…
…Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush Him;
He has put Him to grief.
Romans 7:4 -
You also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Col. 2:13 -
And you, who were dead in your trespasses…God made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This He set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Getting right with God does not depend on law keeping. The law demands and condemns. Christ demands and gives. Love has now arisen within as a longing in my relationship with Christ. A living Person has replaced a list. I have died to law keeping and now I live to bear the fruit of love. He died so that we may have a relationship with God. In Him I put my trust as I die to the law and live to love.
Genesis 50:20 -
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.
Every act of brutality against Jesus was evil. But the Bible tells us, "Jesus was delivered up to death according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23). The lashes and beatings and bruises were all the result of evil yet God’s intentions were good. For they would destroy the power of evil. “Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, did whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place” (Acts 4:27-28). There is no greater sin than to hate and kill the Son of God. Yet God’s intentions in permitting were good. “It was the will of the Lord to crush Him” (Isaiah 53:10). He destroyed evil and suffering through evil and suffering. This is one of the reasons Jesus came to die. For by His stripes we are healed. God meant to show the world that there is no evil too great that He cannot bring from it everlasting joy. The very suffering that we caused became the hope of our salvation.
Isaiah is speaking to those under the Law, who by the Law have lost their way. The Law is not God, nor the words of God, they are the words of Moses to the Hebrew people.
It will take sometime I guess for this to settle in. The Isaiah verse is speaking of the Hebrew people (Israel), not gentiles or those who are not under the Law.
Colossians is speaking to those who were bound by the written code, what is the code? It is the Law. I was never dead in my trespasses, because I am not under any law to trespass against, that record of debt which ‘accused’ us (satan), with it’s legal demands was and is and always has always been the Law. There are no legal demands placed on any gentile or nation outside Israel.
Yes, but it is still evil. The word ‘meant’ is a passive incorrect use of the Hebrew, “chashab” which means: calculated, planned, etc.
So translated: You calculated as evil against me, but God calculated what you did for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
Evil is not good, it is a created thing which is part of a bigger plan which, the plan (not the evil) is ontologically good and for the purpose of good.
Let’s go back to Isaiah
Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Lastly,
Jesus died to destroy the work of the evil one, fulfilling the Law which stood as a veil between the Hebrew people and God, making it obsolete. Salvation means healing, and that which needed healing is what the Law created for those who were under it.
Though directly because of what He did, all humanity now shares in the Blessings of God and to those who were not His People, they are now called Sons of God (You and I [unless of course you are not a gentile]).
Isaiah is a prophecy of the ministry and sufferings of Christ. The sufferings of Christ removed the penalty that His people would otherwise owe, and as a result He will undo the effects of sin in them.
Matt. 8:17 -
This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "He took our illnesses and bore our diseases
Romans 4:24-25 -
It will be counted to us who believe in Him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
1 Peter 2:24 -
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed
2 Cor. 5:21 -
For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God
Acts 3:23 -
This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
One act - two intentions. God’s intentions were good. Man’s intentions were evil. God is to be glorified for His good intentions. Man is held accountable and judged for their evil acts and intentions. I never said that evil was good. Only that God has morally justifiable reasons for permitting evil. He brings good out of evil. The origin of evil is shrouded in mystery. For the secret things belong to the Lord. The heart of the Bible is not an explanation of where evil came from, but a demonstration of how God enters into it and turns it for the very opposite - everlasting righteousness and joy.
More on punishment
A prophesy for those who are under the Law.
2 Corinthians 3:15-17
Down to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their minds and hearts. But whenever a person turns [in repentance] to the Lord, the veil is stripped off and taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (emancipation from bondage, freedom).
Free from what my friend? The Veil of the Law.
This is going to take a while. God bless you on your journey Michael, you are still in the Christian Religion mindset.
Well, when Christ died the veil was torn in two. Now that God’s wrath has been removed we can behold the glory of God in the face of Christ. I will not be decieved by you people any longer.