Davo - no, you haven’t struck a nerve - on the contrary, I’d say I struck one. I’m not at all threatened by your position - I do find it interesting, thoughtful. I’m very happy with my take on Christianity, and am encouraged greatly by others who through history have held to Christianity as the hope of the world. The foundations I have cannot be shaken by what you are presenting; my problem is that I cannot see how undoing those foundations could lead to anything better. It would take much much more than a new ‘movement’ to make me think otherwise.
What words are you referring to, Qaz? What image did I post? In this thread?
Oh. Those are my words.
I love your emphasis on God’s willingness to forgive, and believe I should always be willing to forgive.
But most may question what it means to hold that the Bible describes a God who “accepts all.” You know it often portrays God as not “accepting” everything, in the sense of pouring out judgment, e.g. the Flood or AD70. Indeed, in that sense, doesn’t it also portray Jesus as not always pronouncing forgiveness, but e.g. declaring judgment upon the unrepentant leaders in God’s family? Is your meaning that this was not the expression of God’s character during the Bible’s story, but now is his stance?
You are right, Bob, but wasn’t the judgment executed in AD 70? And do you not also believe that the unrepentant will all eventually repent post mortem?
For those interested - we had a long, detailed and pretty much civil discussion of this that will bring you up to speed on this thread. Here 'tis:
I agree 100%, however… do you require repentance BEFORE you can forgive
I’m very happy with my take on Christianity,…
So, relative to the OP and your happy take on Christianity… are you inclined to hold onto an offence and NOT forgive where you judge there is no discernible repentance
Do you require repentance BEFORE you can forgive
No, when I am healthiest, I realize unforgiveness only punishes me.
I only doubt that the Bible always portrays God as pouring sunshine on the unrepentant.
I don’t understand the question.
Luke 17:3,4 Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him."
These are the words of Jesus. It appears that He gave repentance (a change of heart and mind) as a condition for forgiveness of wrongdoing.
People seem to confuse “forgiveness” with “pardoning”.
To pardon a person who had done you wrong, you dismiss any ill feelings you may have had against him, and you make no requirements of him such as demanding restitution. You do not require any repentance from him (a change of heart and mind concerning what he had done to you). But the friendship you once had with him will probably not be restored.
Not so with forgiveness. If you have truly forgiven the offender, your relationship with him will have been restored. And this requires repentance on his part in order for that to occur. And if he repents, he will be of the mindset to try to make up for the wrong he had done.
God does not accept everyone just as He is. He wants people to become good and loving. He has provided the sacrifice of His beloved Son in order to make His enabling grace available for sinners, having repented, to overcome their sinful inclinations (inclinations that tend to harm other people or themselves).
If people will not accept God’s enabling grace and change their ways, God will not accept them.
They will have to undergo God’s correction, and that may be very severe in some cases. But eventually all will repent, no matter how long it takes. For more stubborn ones, this could be a very long time!
Didn’t Jesus speak highly of John the Baptist “greater then any OT prophet” (paraphrase) & didn’t John encourage people to first “repent” before he baptized them?
Of course God wants people to turn away from their sins, and then be grafted into the body of Christ by baptism.
Those are things Jesus did not and cannot do for us. To simply say ‘Jesus did it all’ says nothing - until you describe WHAT he did for us, and the NT, as believed by Christians, tells us all about. And it is glorious.
We don’t need a new revelation imho
do you require repentance BEFORE you can forgive
I only doubt that the Bible always portrays God as pouring sunshine on the unrepentant.
I don’t understand the question.
People seem to confuse “forgiveness” with “pardoning”.
Not so with forgiveness. If you have truly forgiven the offender, your relationship with him will have been restored. And this requires repentance on his part in order for that to occur.
If people will not accept God’s enabling grace and change their ways, God will not accept them .
True faith is to believe that God accepts all. Misguided faith is the faith that says… my personal faith as a requirement I’ve met grants me grace, forgiveness and acceptance — it’s the mindset that turns faith into a requirement … that’s religianity — that’s death.
Grace is forgiveness… where we are forgiven of things we don’t deserve forgiveness of. Religiosity is where we first have to do certain things to attain the forgiveness of things we don’t deserve forgiveness of.
Any time we think we know how God wants us to Judge, We Are Wrong.
Any time we think we know how God wants us to Judge, We Are Wrong.
That’s just bs, sorry.
Didn’t Jesus speak highly of John the Baptist “greater then any OT prophet” (paraphrase) & didn’t John encourage people to first “repent” before he baptized them?
John the baptiser sure did… BUT to whom was he imploring? Answer… John was speaking to God’s OWN people, people ALREADY IN covenant!
Israel was in disobedience and thus consequently disarray… the sinners being called to repentance were God’s own people!
Quite the position! Believe what you want, and although the words of Jesus, John the Baptizer, and the apostles of Jesus teach differently, simply dismiss their words as inapplicable by affirming that they don’t apply to people any more. They apply only to those to whom they were speaking in their day!
That’s just bs, sorry.
No, that is your opinion and you probably can’t back it up because to do so will put you in contradiction of God. You will never learn.
You will never learn.
It certainly seems less likely, for to do so would be to contradict one’s position, the defence of which seems more important. It’s WHY when I point out, for example, that repentance in the NT is primarily pointed at and pertinent to people in covenant, i.e., God’s people, the typical myopic and juvenile reaction is to miss the woods for the trees and misconstrue that fact as apparently meaning I think repentance is of no value beyond those of the text in view.
IOW Chad… it’s just another convenient way of NOT dealing with a conundrum, or for example, not wanting to answer a really basic and clear question with something lame like… “I don’t understand the question” — because to do so is perceived as giving too much ground.
*NT repentance is primarily pointed at and pertinent to people in covenant, i.e. GOD’s people
You appear to suggest that only Jews were God’s people, and thus alone needed to repent?
But aren’t pagans also called to repent?
“I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance…
even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life…
for now he commands all people everywhere to repent” (Acts 20:21; 11:18; 17:30).
“Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation” (2 Cor. 7:10).
“The hope (is) that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 2:25).
“God is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Pet 3:9).
Aren’t Jews and Gentiles alike equally called to ‘pertinent’ NT “repentance”?