The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Grace — Forgiveness — Faith — Repentance

Theology
#197

Oh yeah - the rally on this thread is still ongoing! :+1:

#198

Ya know, I’ve been watching this thread for some time and I have come to the conclusion that many of you here on this site ‘DON’T WANT EVERYONE TO BE SAVED’

I realize the original idea of the forum and applaud it, but the nay Sayers every time universal reconciliation is brought up is quite alarming. Even among those who supposedly agree with the original idea of the forum.

Go figure

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#199

Nah Bob… that is totally your extraneous jingo!

That is the simple question to ask MINUS all of your regurgitated jingo!

This passage is retelling Israel’s story…

Rom 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Mt 23:13; Lk 11:52), because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them (Acts 7:38; Rom 3:1-2; 9:4-5). For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God (Ex 19:5-6; Deut 7:6; Psa 103:7; Amos 3:2, 7), they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things (Ex 32:1-6; Num 25:1-3; Hos 9:10 et al).

Sure…, you can take all this as personal admonitions or otherwise to yourself, no problem, BUT the truth is as I stated earlier… this is about Israel. Paul does it time and again in his letters…

1Cor 10:6-11 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Israel of that day was living in… “the ends of the ages” and as such Paul writes of their back-story.

#200

THAT Chad is because said nay Sayers perceive there is a given programme to be followed in order to attain said level of reconciliation, i.e., it has to have their stamp on it. :crazy_face:

#201

David, I applaud you in your unrelenting pursuit in spelling out at least ONE way scripture can be construed to show that there is a Loving God who universally will understand everything we go through and have been through, and will be going through.

People on this site should be excited about the idea that there is a way that our Christian scripture can be construed to allow for the reconciliation of all humanity.

Thanks brother.

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#202

Davo, thank you for graciously answering where you see "Israel" (rather than Gentiles and all men) as who is clearly specified here. I agree that Paul sees Jews as equally sinful, but when he indicts Israel (2:17ff), he can plainly specify that he means “Jews.” And 1st century Jewish texts (e.g. Josephus) repeatedly epitomized Gentiles as those given over to idolatry of images that produced sexual deviancy (esp. homosexuality; cf Isa 46:1-7).

So I see Paul here explicitly condemn “all” the unrighteousness of "men" (anthropon) “since the creation of the world” (i.e. before Israel even existed!), because “by the (creation’s) things that are made” they knew a God of power, yet inexcusably gave no thanks to Him, but instead worshipped idol images of what God created. Then 24-27 emphasizes that the result of such false worship was rampant homosexuality (abuses for which scorned pagans were infamous).

I.e. Paul is building toward a case that “all men” are sinners who come short of the glory of God, and thus all need His redeeming justification. So my query for you is: If Paul had indeed wanted to indict “all men” as inexcusably given over to ungodliness, how could he have made it any clearer here?

#203

Boy o boy MM, you certainly come out with some bold statements with out much thought behind them don’t you. :roll_eyes:. I think you know and I know that most of us on here believe in the reconciliation Of all humanity. Now… what we might all disagree on, is to how all of humanity is being or is going to be brought into the understanding and blessings of what God did through his son at Calvary. How that amounts to not wanting all mankind to be saved is beyond me.

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#204

So my answer to you is: As I have said to you repeatedly… “to the Jew FIRST and THEN the Gentile.”

#205

I would say that ALL on this forum, would WANT ALL to be saved. Some (like me) would HOPE all would be saved. Others here might have dogmatic positions on how folks either will be (or have been) saved.

And some - like me - might feel folks would have to experience the bad (AKA Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9))…before all might or will be saved. Whether we might blame this on the Devil, science run AMOK, or both. But luckily AMC will be airing The Walking Dead tonight (and Fear The Walking Dead later), to give us some perspective. :wink:

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#206

:woman_zombie::zombie::zombie:‍♂!!! :flushed:

#207

Everyone who reads Romans 1 as describing Gentiles recognizes the Gospel came “to the Jew first,” but this does nothing to answer the exegesis I offered that it indicts all men as under God’s wrath.

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#208

Ok

#209

My gosh Bob, Is there nothing in your understanding that would at some point relent that much… or God forbid ALL of what is happening there is focused on the there and then. When you can unwrap your head from all the teaching that hammered into you that scripture was not only for the then and there, but for the here and now. It really causes a disruption in one’s belief system, don’t you think?

#210

Actually, I have kind of considered the subject in depth, so yes, there was a bit of thought behind them. The idea that salvation is a moving target is a continual part of fundamental Christianity.

No I don’t know or believe that.

That is Bull Shit. Jesus took away ALL of humanities SINS. You either believe that or you are saying that we need to do something to secure our salvation… God I am repulsed to even have to deal with this.

#211

J Preston Eby’s testimony concerning how he came to believe in the reconciliation of all to God:

#212

I like this… thanks Don.

#213

Davo’s response to my claim was OK, yours is my gosh :slight_smile: You needn’t believe it’s true, but I was interested in whether either of you can challenge that interpretation of what Romans 1 argues.

#215

I like to explore many sources, in order to grow in my Christian life. Both academic and spiritual sources.

I decided that in addition to religion, I will seek spirituality.

  • I will continue to practice silent meditation, in the Heartfulness, Zen, Mindfulness, and Bruno Groening Circle of Freinds’ traditions.
  • I will attend light gatherings of the Sukyo Mahikari and Johrei traditions. Along with the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends and Heartfulness gatherings.
  • I will attend Native American ceremonies (when available), hang out with Native American medicine people, and Eastern sages (i.e. Amma and Karynamayi, when in my area).
  • I will avail myself of Catholic sacraments, and reading the writings of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox - mystics and saints.

Then I bring my spirituality back, to the field of religion. They go hand-in-hand. Which now that I’m into Francasian and Eastern Catholic theology. And can be found in books, by Catholic writers. Like you find in the Catholic author books

Or in the Native American books

And on the Eastern front

Let me quote from this article:

Spirituality is a solitary experience of the divine, while religion involves a group of people brought together by their common faith or beliefs about the divine. Religion aims to build one’s character. It shapes one’s beliefs, attitudes, and actions by giving importance to the adherence of rules.

I probably see the world (and Christian life), a bit differently - then most folks here.

#216

I wasn’t referring to the subject In hand,
I was referring to your statement.as
follows :——— “ I have come to the conclusion, that many of you here on this site ‘ DON’T WANT EVERYONE TO BE SAVED’ :———Your statement is about as bizarre as saying that many catholic’s don’t believe the pope is catholic. That would be a thoughtless and senseless statement. As is yours.

[IF] a person was to believe that salvation was a moving target, that eventually [ALL] would be drawn to hit. How does this warrant you saying that they don’t want [ALL] of humanity to be saved.? That’s the bottom line of just how ridiculous your statement was/is.!

“ I Don’t know that ” doesn’t come into it, simply because it’s staring you in the
face all over this forum “ I don’t Want to believe that” Seems to be the attitude in
your case”

I fail to see how, the processes that God chooses to use to bring [All] humanity into obedience with his ways [as to receive his blessings] has anything to do with securing our own Salvation.

That’s not like you to be over dramatic in your statements :wink:

#217

I think - and maybe I’m wrong - that when MM says we don’t want all people to be saved, he means that we don’t think everyone is saved RIGHT NOW, perfectly, completely, no faith nor repentance nor good works as a fruit of repentance, nothing is necessary - and have been saved since Jesus’ work was accomplished. Since we don’t THINK like that, he goes further and says we don’t WANT it to be true.
Which of course is NOT what we think, but that’s the only way MM seems to see it.

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