I agree with you that man does not have the ability to believe in something they cannot see. That is why when the word of God is preached the faith of God is released to the sinner to give him the ability to make a choice the same way Lydia did in Acts 16:14. Also, the same way Cornelious did in Acts 10.
Paul was always trying to “persuade” people to believe the gospel. If monergism were true there would be no need to persuade, huh auggy?
Definition of persuade - cause somebody to adopt a certain position, belief, or course of action; twist somebody’s arm; "You can’t persuade me to accept the gift of salvation!
Auggy, where is monergism in the act of persuasion? Would it be monergism at work if God needed Paul to twist people’s arm to believe?
Definition of monergism- the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.
I agree with you that man does not have the ability to believe in something they cannot see. That is why when the word of God is preached the faith of God is released to the sinner to give him the ability to make a choice the same way Lydia did in Acts 16:14. Also, the same way Cornelious did in Acts 10.
I’m confused still…So before the word of God is preached and the faith of God is NOT released, do they have a responsibility to do what is right, (I advise reading Romans 1 - NO ONE WILL GO WITHOUT AN EXCUSE).
Paul was always trying to “persuade” people to believe the gospel. If monergism were true there would be no need to persuade, huh auggy?
Actually, if Monergism were true, persuasion would still be a tool God uses in calling the elect. Nothing contradictory about that except that in most LFW thinkers, Monergism demands people are robots.
Auggy, where is monergism in the act of persuasion? Would it be monergism at work if God needed Paul to twist people’s arm to believe? Where is God’s unfailing in persuasion? Is God trying to persuade people via Paul as his vessle? If God needed Paul to twists people’s arms then I suppose he’d make Paul real strong enough to actually save the people who needed their arms twisted. For if he did not give Paul the strength to twist someone’s arm then I would say God does not have the unsaved’s best interest at heart. And if he does not have their best in mind, then I would say God does not love them (read Talbott’s and People’s conversation for this very topic).
Definition of monergism- the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration
That sounds like prevenetive Grace, the grace which INDEPENTENT of human will frees them so they can make a chioce?
I’m still baffled as well that you don’t believe the god of this world has blinded the unbeliever so that they cannot see or hear the gospel.
If you cannot accept Pauls words than I guess I can just say Romans 1 is false because I know that men don’t and cannot know because they’ve been blinded from the gospel by the god of this world.
Satan does blind people to the gospel, but It is clear that God commands light to shine out of darkness into men’s hearts.( 2 Cor 4:6) The glorious gospel of Jesus Christ can penetrate the worst darkness the devil can produce.
Romans 1 is true… rather you believe it or not. Monergism acts independently of the human will. So,…
What are you persuading if Paul is not trying to persuade the human will?
How does God act independently of the human will and at the same time need to persuade the human will?
So if they are blind and cannot hear the gospel how is it they can receive it of their own accord? As I understand your LFW position you seem to agree here that unbelievers are indeed blind and unable to receive it but God PUTS his light into their hearts based on their willingness to accept the gospel THOUGH YOU SAY THEY ARE BLIND TO IT AND CANNOT HEAR IT?
Romans 1 is true… rather you believe it or not. Monergism acts independently of the human will. So,…
I was not saying I don’t believe it’s true, I was saying that if you deny that satan blinds unbellievers that they are blind and cannot see the light of the gospel, then what is different than me denying paul in romans 1? But you now agree that they are blind and I also agree, people are responsible and God punishes them for their evil choices. That’s what a loving God does.
What are you persuading if Paul is not trying to persuade the human will?
A person.
How does God act independently of the human will and at the same time need to persuade the human will?
God does as he pleases. How does God persuade and NOT TRY TO SAVE SOMONE - which in another thread you claimed God does not try to save anyone. If God is persuading (via paul) than how is that different than he is trying to save that person?
As I see our big disagreement, you believe that Lydia was not a recipient of God’s mercy which lead her to being a worshipper of God. I would argue Lydia was an object of mercy prior to her hearing the gospel. So you’re being saved is based on you decision to let God save you and that in itself is not an act of God working in your life…IN other words God did not humble you that you would call on the name of the lord, You humbled youself then God acted. I say, God ALONE humbles the arrogant for arrogance CANNOT logically commit suicide.
you said: 1) What are you persuading if Paul is not trying to persuade the human will?
A person.
Aaron37: C’mon Auggy, really? We know Paul is talking to a person. What in the person is Paul trying to persuade? If monergism were true,( God working independently from the human will) why would Paul need to persuade anything? ( God bypasses the human will to regenerate people, huh Aug?)According to Monergism, God does not need our cooperation to be born again, the gospel is preached…the Holy Spirit goes in and regenerates our spirits. The Holy Spirit works independently from the human will…So why does a person need to be persuaded to believe if God works independently from the human will?
you said: 2) How does God act independently of the human will and at the same time need to persuade the human will?
God does as he pleases. How does God persuade and NOT TRY TO SAVE SOMONE - which in another thread you claimed God does not try to save anyone. If God is persuading (via paul) than how is that different than he is trying to save that person?
Aaron37: God does as he pleases? A person? … These answers are the best you can do when defending monergism? Wow.
No, Auggy, our biggest disagreement is you don’t comprehend anything I say. I have to repeat myself often because you do not grasp anything I say. I never said that you get saved because of your decision to let God save you… I never said it was not an act of God working in your life… This is your distorted understanding of my view, not mine…
A37,
you are right that I am confused by you words. But don’t assume it’s because you have everything wired. I am confused because you say so many things which seem to conflict logically. If I am to be convinced you are right then you’ll have to be sound and logical; so far as I understand you - you are not.
If you cannot see that logically you have not answered the question, through what seem hundreds of posts, then I’m afraid you’ll never get it. If you can at least say “I see why you are confused so let me explain this” then perhaps we’ll get somewhere. So far you have not been even able to see why LFW has it’s difficulties.
You stated in response to people being blinded by the god of this world: Sure their blind to it…as was I and yourself. Not blinded to the fact they cannot make a free-will choice to put their faith in Jesus. Auggy, I was once in bondage to the false theology of Calvinism…I do not wish to be entangled by it again…
**So here it is:
people are blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
they are not blind to the reality of free will to put their faith in Jesus
If people cannot understand the gospel then why would they put their faith in Jesus?**
Thus I have questioned if God comes and removes the blind eyes of the unbeliever, is this DONE in respect to their free will? Because you also state that the reason God opened Lydia’s heart to the gospel was because SHE WAS ALREADY A WORSHIPPER OUTSIDE OF GOD HAVING MERCY ON HER?
Basically I see you saying that Lydia, before the gospel was preached, was a god fearing woman (worshipper) and that is why God did not overwhelm a “rank” sinner in order to force a change of heart. As stated earlier in the commentary:
Whatever God did to Lydia’s heart, He did not have to force her to want to serve Him. She wanted that. She was already His worshiper, albeit in accordance with limited and outdated knowledge of His will. In Lydia’s case, God did not directly overwhelm a rank sinner who had no inclination to do right in order to force a change of heart. Those who claim He does so today have no basis for it from this conversion account.
**Does God open the heart of a NON God worshipping unbeliever so that they can accpet the message of Paul? If you say yes then why the above paragraph makes no sense because the writer is stating that her being a worshipper is what qualifies the fact that God is not overwhelming the rank sinner. **
Thus I find your “equal opportunity” to be in question: For Lydia had some good expereineces, good parents or good friends that BEFORE THE GOSPEL came to her, she was willing to listen.
Unfortunatley (casino theology) for the NON GOD WORSHIPPER they had bad expereiences, bad parents, bad friends who makes them UNWILLING to listen.
If you cannot understand my confusion then we probably should end this conversation. If you can at least admit that you see why YOU come off confusing then perhaps we might get somewhere.
Aug.
Sorry, I just feel like I’m repeating myself over and over. I have walked in monergism shoes too, so you are not telling me anything I don’t already know. Been there, Auggy. Please respond to this before we go around the mountain again:
We know Paul is talking to a person. What in the person is Paul trying to persuade? If monergism were true,( God working independently from the human will) why would Paul need to persuade anything? ( God bypasses the human will to regenerate people, huh Aug?)According to Monergism, God does not need our cooperation to be born again, the gospel is preached…the Holy Spirit goes in and regenerates our spirits. The Holy Spirit works independently from the human will…So why does a person need to be persuaded to believe if God is working independently from the human will?
I’ll do my best to answer it again but if you don’t like it, it’s because you already are convinced monergism is completely wrong. So no matter what someone says, even if it’s right, you won’t accept it. So heres how monergists that I know of answer.
Monergism does not say mans cooperation is not needed but rather secondary. Since men are enslaved and blind they need God to free them from the slavery they are in. They cannot EVEN WANT to be freed while they are enslaved because the slavery cases them to not want to be freed. Such scriptures would be pauls words who states “While we were sinners we were controlled by our sinful nature.” Thus mans cooperation for being freed from enslavement is not required.
I hear you saying that is also true in your view, that God openes the heart of EVERYONE (equal opportunity) and thus they then can choose.
So in both Monergism and your view GOD ACTS INDEPENDENTLY of the human will.
Now the difference is that Monergism says that the reason the person accepts the gospel is because God softens them (romans 9) and that results NOT IN A CHOICE but IN THEIR RECEIVING MERCY. FOR GOD HAVING MERCY DOES NOT DEPEND ON MANS EFFORTS OR DESIRES. In LFW it does.
You think you’ve been addressing these but I can’t find where. I hear you over and over and over restating free will is true therefore monergism can’t be true But that’s what we’re debating here. As I stated monergism is true so how can free will be true. You’re presupposition does not allow you to hear the other side. You formerly being a monergist means nothing to me. I too was a libertarian free will believer but no more. Does that prove to you I’m right? If it does nothing to prove my point then why in the name of God would you think that helps you prove yours. My point is this Aaron37, don’t waste time and kilobytes telling people “been there, done that” - well that’s true for us too; Eternal Hell, been there done that…therfore you should know it’s false. Man if you cannot understand that much, then good luck and join the jim jones drink the punch suckers church of america. I for one will not drink the punch becasue you say you once believed something and have now switched.
Most people on this site are thoughtful and really want to have discussions but it requires them to admit their difficulties. You are not ready for that because you are convinced that the verses you raise prove free will. And since you once were a calvinist then that means your free will position must be right. Calvinists would simply reply, you used to be right but you fell away from the truth by believing the lie that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SOUL. they would claim you endorse…God helps those, who help themselves. So you must have fallen from the truth.
Let me say this as we come to the close of our discussion. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MOST OF THE DIFFICULTIES. All you do is say romans 1 (as if that even addresses the issue) and you think you’ve tackeled the difficulty.
So here it is again: (from your own words)
people are blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
they are not blind to the reality of free will to put their faith in Jesus
If people cannot understand the gospel then why would they put their faith in Jesus?
You are saying they are required to accept the gospel (which they cannot see) but they are to put their faith in the object of that gospel (Jesus)? HOW? If you don’t address this then we simply cannot continue (also JP raised this in early responses to you - so it’s nothing new - and you never addressed him either).
people are blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
they are not blind to the reality of free will to put their faith in Jesus
If people cannot understand the gospel then why would they put their faith in Jesus?
You are saying they are required to accept the gospel (which they cannot see) but they are to put their faith in the object of that gospel (Jesus)? HOW? If you don’t address this then we simply cannot continue (also JP raised this in early responses to you - so it’s nothing new - and you never addressed him either).
Aaron37: Yes, it is a fact… Man is blinded by the god of this world, but the truth is when the word of God is preached to man… God commands light to shine out of darkness into men’s hearts.( 2 Cor 4:6) The glorious gospel of Jesus Christ can penetrate the worst darkness the devil can produce. Truth trumps fact. When the word of God is preached the faith of God is released to the sinner to give him the ability to make a choice the same way Lydia did in Acts 16:14.
I have addressed these questions…you just can’t wrap your mind around it because of the strongholds you possess in your thinking. I’m tired going around the mountain. I pray you come to the truth as I did. God bless.
Aaron,
I think I’m starting to sort out your position now. Still yet I have more questions in order to understand exactly how to progress our discussion.
How exactly do they reject this intuitive knowledge they are created with? If they reject this intuitive knowledge how will they ever be saved? I thus will assume that when that day comes (the first time the gospel is preached) they CANNOT be saved for they rejected the one thing that gives them the choice?
I have addressed these questions…you just can’t wrap your mind around it because of the strongholds you possess in your thinking.
I can’t wrap my mind around because you say things which are confusing like:
Everyone’s created with this intuitive knowledge.
When the gospel is preached they can reject this intuitive knowledge or accept it.
I’m tired going around the mountain. I pray you come to the truth as I did. God bless. That’s what the Mormons say as well and I’ll tell you what I tell them.
I’m tired of going around the mountain. I pray you come to the truth as I did. God bless.
It’s this type of confusion that Libertarians want so much to employ and yet can’t even make sense of it in their presentations.
The difficulties of LFW are easy to understand and not easily diffused. Libertarians want desperately to say men know what they are doing and thus are cuplable but can’t explain why Jesus would pray “forgive them for they know NOT what they do”.
So far in my experience, Libertarians offer a rendering of Romans 1 that IF GOD WOULD NOT OPEN THE EYES OF THE UNBELIEVER they would have an excuse REGARDLESS OF CREATION.
I read paul stating, NO ONE WILL HAVE AN EXCUSE and it’s not because he says God will open their eyes and then they become culpable. It’s because (I’ll let paul say it): since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
But then Paul comes along and says: The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
The difficulty is not hard to see, no one will have an excuse and every unbeliever is blind.
I also have charged that this argument by libertarians requires proof that man is put into a nuetral position; that is he neither serves God nor the devil. For if a man is brought to the point of choice and God has freed him from his bondage by the preaching of the gospel then who, at that time, is he enslaved to? I present pauls words that either you are a slave to sin or to righteoussness. I present Jesus’ own words that you cannot serve two masters - you will serve one or the other. And no where does scripture ever state there are points where we are neither saved nor lost.
Thus far the LFW/ECT viewpoint fails to convince me that God grants men a choice to damn themselves forever.
How exactly do they reject this intuitive knowledge they are created with?
As Paul explained in Romans 1:18-20, every person who has ever lived has had God reveal Himself to them, but this verse is explaining that revelation is not always received. Each individual has the freedom of choice.
In verses 21-23, Paul describes different characteristics of those who reject God’s revelation. These could also be descriptive of progressive steps that one takes away from the true revelation of God.
The first step in rejecting God is not to glorify Him as the supreme, all knowing, unquestionable God. This is what happened with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They questioned God’s intent behind His command (Gen. 3:1-6). They ceased to magnify and honor God as they once did. Submission to God as supreme is always humbling and therefore “self” rebels. This is very prevalent today.
Secondly, they were not thankful. This is always a sign that self is exalting itself above God. A selfless person can be content with very little. A self-centered person cannot be satisfied. Thankfulness is a sign of humility and cultivating a life of thankfulness will help keep “self” in its proper place.
After these first two steps have been taken, then the individual’s mind is freed to begin imagining foolish, wicked, and idolatrous thoughts . This leads to a hardened heart and being reprobate
If they reject this intuitive knowledge how will they ever be saved?
See Above.
I thus will assume that when that day comes (the first time the gospel is preached) they CANNOT be saved for they rejected the one thing that gives them the choice?
Not exactly… you willingly chose with your eyes wide open to reject this knowledge. You can reject the knowledge of God to where he gives you over to your hardened heart to the point of reprobation. Romans 1:28
Again, If you respond positively or stay neutral to the intuitive knowledge given you…you will be given opportunities to believe the gospel.
