Born again,
are you saying that despite pauls words in 2 cor 4, unbelievers can understand the gospel to make a free choice?
Auggy.
Yes. This is the only thing you should give unbelievers…Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
So even though a person has never heard the gospel, the gospel is evident in creation? Seems to me therefore, that it is possible for someone who never heard of Christ can come to God based on that testamony, seeing that what can be known to God has been shown to them already.
Sems also to me that the pronoucement of judgment is on those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. What about those people in that catagory who do NOT hold the truth in unrighteousness, but are seeking God? Are they not saved by the knowledge they gained from the testimony of creation?
So Born again,
how do you reconcile Pauls words with your own?
2 Cor 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
If I understand you right you’re saying that unbelievers ARE NOT blinded by the god of this age and that they CAN see the light of the gospel. Is this correct?
Born again,
My last post was a question to you. I’m hoping you might clarify your position for us.
Auggy.
Sure their blind to it…as was I and yourself. Not blinded to the fact they cannot make a free-will choice to put their faith in Jesus. Auggy, I was once in bondage to the false theology of Calvinism…I do not wish to be entangled by it again… 
Praise God for that!
Born Again, you know, I actually agree with a lot of what you say. I think there is a definate tension between the verses that support universalism and the verses that really don’t. But the tension is there. The Bible is not systematic and thus, for me, because the verses that DO support universalism exist, and we have ample reason to hope (I could even argue that we are expected to hope and pray that all are saved! After all, this is the will of God), and yet, we should always be preaching Christ crucified. I don’t think anyone on this board does not want to preach Christ crucified, after all, universalism or not, Christ is what saves. Yet I do feel you ignore the hope in the Bible for all to be saved. Why?
Born again,
if you want people to take your words seriously then you should present a better case to dissolve the obvious tension. I appreciate you challenging the EU position but you must be able to explain WHY people are blind and are expected to see?
You say they have a free choice but have done nothing to prove this point. When I present to you a verse which does not seem to agree with your position you simply say “they have a free choice” but “yes they are blind”. If you’re going to spout that this position (eu) is unbiblical then I’m going to say your belief that you humble yourself is unbiblical as well.
Aug
Auggy,
Ok. Romans 10:9-10 the bible says confess with your mouth and believe from your heart that Jesus was raised from the dead and you will be saved. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Saving Faith is manufactured from your heart by hearing the word of God.
Do you believe God softened your heart and humbled your arrogance or would you deny it?
Whether you know it or not. That, essentially, is the Lutheran theology concept of Objective Justification - that one can come to the believe the Truth - not create it.
For example, Christ took away the sins of the world at the Cross. Whether that is known or not, or believed or not, does not change that accomplishment as a True Fact - a Truth to be believed or, simply, known when ‘seen’.
Faith is subjective by nature and does not represent Truth fully - nor can it be expected to on this side of the veil. Faith in one’s faith, then, is a common error as it replaces faith in God’s grace - the object of faith.
"I believe it - therefore, I make it true.’ Is flawed thinking at it’s worst. It’s like saying, God’s grace doesn’t exist unless I believe it or ‘manufacture’ it - the problem with that thinking should be apparent.
BA thinks that it is his faith that saves him. But it’s always been, and forever will be, God’s grace that saves us.
Ranran.
Grace through faith, ranran. ( Eph 2:8-9)
Quote the WHOLE verse, BA.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
You have made your ‘faith’ a work - that’s what you think saves you. And you have worked hard at it - and think you cannot change it without bursting into flames since THAT is what saves you - it’s your preciousssssssss. And if God is shown to extend His Grace beyond your preciousssss, you complain.
His Gift is not your precioussssss, but salvation itself.
Ranran.
I was set free from the bondage of the false theology of Calvinism. You have a Calvinistic UR voice. Your faith is not considered to be a work. “not of yourselves” means that you cannot do anything to earn salvation…( by the Law, good deeds, etc…)
You were saved BEFORE you believed. Exactly. Now tell us about your faith not being a work.
Ranran.
Accepting a gift is not a work.
Why do these guys like BA, hate the idea of realizing their complete futility before a Sovereign God? (Rom 8;20)
Because they selfishly want to be God by their own method. They want to do it their way. It’s the oldest sin in the book.
It is the spirit of Adam in every man that desires to reach rather than rest in Paradise.
There is Theosis but it is only found as we rest in Christ. He alone can lift us into the Father and last I looked Jesus had not placed a “HELP WANTED” sign at Heaven’s gate.
Rest you weary traveler, REST,
John
PS. Please BA take no offence as I once once worked as hard as anyone. Then Jesus revealed Himself as Lord of All and I found rest. Truth is He laid me so low I gave up and He then took up the cross I thought I could carry. Most of us found it is His cross to bear and we found it in crisis.
That’s right. Everyone accepts the gift (salvation) in the end. They didn’t WORK to make that happen, anymore than you or I did.
Exactly! We would call a man who didn’t believe he was in Adam as - "crazy’ or ‘ignorant’ - and then have to explain to him that it means (in it’s broadest) that he is a human being - by INclusion.
The change from being in Adam to being in Christ is universal because it is by the same INclusion. To be human means to be in Christ.
All means all, whether you know it or not.
Let us assume that Paul, did not believe Jesus was the savior of all mankind even for those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10), and that those who do not believe suffer everlasting torment for their rejection. Can the message of the Cross save them?
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Nope. Once again, BA fails to read the Scriptures.