The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How are we saved..the same as Lydia..free-will choice..

Theology Biblical Theology
#41

On the contrary, I worry that I would be selfish to ask people to accept something of this sort merely on my own say-so. Craig’s situations are quite different, of course, and I’m glad about that. :slight_smile:

As to the people who were helped, they know something miraculous happened; whether they thank God for it or not is their business, but I don’t want them coming back to me as though I had anything to do with it by my own power. Moreover, in the case that is of most importance to me personally, I would vastly much rather that that person’s privacy not be breached; which I would have to do, in order to go into more detail. I would rather people think me a liar first.

I’m much happier about that, too. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

#42

You wouldn’t be asking nothing, you’d just be telling it. Why should you care what other people think? They called Jesus a blasphemer, a glutton, and a wine-bibber, but that didn’t stop him from hanging out with sinners. If you are a man of your word and have demonstrated integrity, what you say wouldn’t be merely on your say so, but built upon your reputation as one who tells the truth. It’s their problem if they don’t wish to believe it.

I’m all for privacy. Notice I didn’t use any proper names in my story. Unless you are intimately familiar with who I am and who my family is, or are nosey just the say, you have no idea who I’m speaking of. But if you feel that someone mightv possibly know who you are talking about in this forum, you could always employ Paul’s tactic, “I knew a man in Christ…” :wink:

As far as one who attributes that power to you, I’ve had people say that I saved them, but I quickly corrected them and told them that God saved them, I’m only the messenger boy. But then they told me that’s what they meant, God saved them. I think most folks know who to thank for their miracles. Certainly not you nor I.

#43

1 Peter 4:10
As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

Romans 5:6-9
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

1 Corinthians 12:4-7
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

My confidence in the things of God for the common good of all, cannot be moved and the portion of faith God has given me has been planted by the river of life and it’s roots have grown deep and strong. It is for your benefit I share these experiences. I take only pride in what God has done!

#44

Taken from the Timothy Keller thread: How Universalism Has Impacted my Life

I think we have some agreement here. Here’s where we agree:

  1. Lydia outside of God’s interference, was unable to choose (accept) Pauls message (the gospel).
  2. God’s interfering with her inability to believe is not based upon her efforts or her desires. (romans 9)

Would you say you agree thus far?

#45

Aug.

  1. I would not say God’s interference. I would say assistance.
  2. No, Although, she does not have the ability to believe in something she can’t see, she does have the ability to accept or reject the truth provided to her by the gift of faith.
#46

Ok this is very confusing for me then. If she CANNOT accept the gospel in and of herself then how is she assisting God in softening her own heart.

Romans 9 clearly states that God’s right to having mercy or hardening someone rests NOT in their efforts or desires. So how is it here, the mercy of God does rest on her assistance?

How are these two different? If she is unable to believe in something she cannot see then how does she have the ability to accept something she CANNOT see (the gospel).

I assume you’ll say because GOD gives her the ability to see based on her acceptance of him (as she was already a worshipper of God).

#47

The other point you’ve not responded to is that you seem to base your arguments on silence. I argued that while the scriptures do declare she was a worshipper of God. The scriptures DO NOT declare of why she was a worshipper of God.

Your position seems to be that she is a worshipper because she unlike the son of ceasar made good decisions because she was well natured? (Of course this is my point about CASINO THEOLOGY; one man born to billy graham gets to be trained to worship God while Osama Bin laden’s kid is trained to blow up people - yet it’s these very things which will determine if God gives the ability to hear the gospel—after all that’s why it was not arbitrary on Lydia)

The reformed will say she is a worshipper because GOD MADE HER THAT WAY; it was of his own calling.

Can you provide scripture that states her being a worshipper was independent of God’s mercy?

If not then you’ve not escaped the force of the reformed question:
Does God having mercy depend on mans efforts or desires?

#48

Btw, how do you quote other poeple’s comments like you do?

Lydia is not assisting for her heart to be opened. She willingly listened to Paul’s preaching and God gave her the ability( the gift of faith that opened her heart) to accept or reject the truth given to her.

Auggy, just because God opens people’s hearts (by the gift of faith) to give them the ability to believe, not all of them believe.

I have walked in monergism shoes, but I thank God he gave me a new pair of shoes. lol.

#49

Auggy.

You said: Can you provide scripture that states her being a worshipper was independent of God’s mercy?

Aaron37: Again, I have stated that every person has an intuitive knowledge of God inside of them. I believe God gives opportunity to every person who has responded positively to the light given them. As Paul explained in Romans 1:18-20, every person who has ever lived has had God reveal Himself to them, but this verse is explaining that revelation is not always received. Each individual has the freedom of choice.

In verses 21-23, Paul describes different characteristics of those who reject God’s revelation. These could also be descriptive of progressive steps that one takes away from the true revelation of God.

The first step in rejecting God is not to glorify Him as the supreme, all knowing, unquestionable God. This is what happened with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They questioned God’s intent behind His command (Gen. 3:1-6). They ceased to magnify and honor God as they once did. Submission to God as supreme is always humbling and therefore “self” rebels. This is very prevalent today.

Secondly, they were not thankful. This is always a sign that self is exalting itself above God. A selfless person can be content with very little. A self-centered person cannot be satisfied. Thankfulness is a sign of humility and cultivating a life of thankfulness will help keep “self” in its proper place.

After these first two steps have been taken, then the individual’s mind is freed to begin imagining foolish, wicked, and idolatrous thoughts . This leads to a hardened heart and being reprobate.

#50

Aaron37,
So then you do agree that her being a worshipper was by the mercy of God. As I understand you then you seem to be holding that Romans 1 is stating that God does have mercy on all by opening their hearts so that they can receive the gospel.

Is this right?

#51

Aug.

you said: Aaron37,
So then you do agree that her being a worshipper was by the mercy of God. As I understand you then you seem to be holding that Romans 1 is stating that God does have mercy on all by opening their hearts so that they can receive the gospel.

Aaron37: No, God wired every human being with an intuitive knowledge of his divine nature inside them… if you read my last post…Romans 1 clearly teaches that man can reject this intuitive knowledge of God to the point of being reprobate. Lydia positively responded to the light given her and God gave her an opportunity to believe the gospel.( the same with Cornelious in Acts 10) Again, I believe God gives equal opportunity to everyone to believe the gospel who positively responds to the intuitive knowledge( light) given them.

#52

Aaron37,
Ok so Lydia’s being a worshipper was NOT due to God’s mercy? What do you suppose is the reason for her being a worshipper?

#53

Aug.

Lydia was reponding positvely to the light (intiuitive knowledge) inside of her, Auggy. This intuitive knowledge has nothing to do with God’s mercy. It is inside of every human being created.

Defintion of intuitive
adj…
Known or perceived through intuition.

#54

  1. Does the light inside of people mean they KNOW (intuitively) WHILE the god of this age blinds them so that they cannot see the light of the gospel?

  2. How does Lydias closed heart fare in light of her responsibility of her intuitive knoweldge? Prior to God’s opening her heart IT WAS CLOSED. Or would you say it was never closed by God but rather she closed it by her own choice?

Aug

#55

Aug.

  1. Yes, as long as they don’t reject this kowledge ( like the ones in Romans 1) they will have an opportunity to believe in Jesus. It is clear that God commands light to shine out of darkness into men’s hearts.( 2 Cor 4:6) The glorious gospel of Jesus Christ can penetrate the worst darkness the devil can produce.

  2. Everyone’s heart is closed due to the spirtual death nature that we are all born with… Again, as long as you don’t reject this intuitive knowledge the way they did in Romans 1…God will provide an opportunity for you to believe the gospel.

#56

Auggy.

My turn to ask questions.

I agree with you that man does not have the ability to believe in something they cannot see. That is why when the word of God is preached the faith of God is released to the sinner to give him the ability to make a choice the same way Lydia did in Acts 16:14. Also, the same way Cornelious did in Acts 10.

Paul was always trying to “persuade” people to believe the gospel. If monergism were true there would be no need to persuade, huh auggy?

Definition of persuade - cause somebody to adopt a certain position, belief, or course of action; twist somebody’s arm; "You can’t persuade me to accept the gift of salvation!

Auggy, where is monergism in the act of persuasion? Would it be monergism at work if God needed Paul to twist people’s arm to believe?

Definition of monergism- the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

#57

I agree with you that man does not have the ability to believe in something they cannot see. That is why when the word of God is preached the faith of God is released to the sinner to give him the ability to make a choice the same way Lydia did in Acts 16:14. Also, the same way Cornelious did in Acts 10.
I’m confused still…So before the word of God is preached and the faith of God is NOT released, do they have a responsibility to do what is right, (I advise reading Romans 1 - NO ONE WILL GO WITHOUT AN EXCUSE).

Paul was always trying to “persuade” people to believe the gospel. If monergism were true there would be no need to persuade, huh auggy?
Actually, if Monergism were true, persuasion would still be a tool God uses in calling the elect. Nothing contradictory about that except that in most LFW thinkers, Monergism demands people are robots.

Auggy, where is monergism in the act of persuasion? Would it be monergism at work if God needed Paul to twist people’s arm to believe? Where is God’s unfailing in persuasion? Is God trying to persuade people via Paul as his vessle? If God needed Paul to twists people’s arms then I suppose he’d make Paul real strong enough to actually save the people who needed their arms twisted. For if he did not give Paul the strength to twist someone’s arm then I would say God does not have the unsaved’s best interest at heart. And if he does not have their best in mind, then I would say God does not love them (read Talbott’s and People’s conversation for this very topic).

Definition of monergism- the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration
That sounds like prevenetive Grace, the grace which INDEPENTENT of human will frees them so they can make a chioce?

I’m still baffled as well that you don’t believe the god of this world has blinded the unbeliever so that they cannot see or hear the gospel.

If you cannot accept Pauls words than I guess I can just say Romans 1 is false because I know that men don’t and cannot know because they’ve been blinded from the gospel by the god of this world.

#58

Aug.

Satan does blind people to the gospel, but It is clear that God commands light to shine out of darkness into men’s hearts.( 2 Cor 4:6) The glorious gospel of Jesus Christ can penetrate the worst darkness the devil can produce.

Romans 1 is true… rather you believe it or not. Monergism acts independently of the human will. So,…

  1. What are you persuading if Paul is not trying to persuade the human will?
  2. How does God act independently of the human will and at the same time need to persuade the human will?
#59

So if they are blind and cannot hear the gospel how is it they can receive it of their own accord? As I understand your LFW position you seem to agree here that unbelievers are indeed blind and unable to receive it but God PUTS his light into their hearts based on their willingness to accept the gospel THOUGH YOU SAY THEY ARE BLIND TO IT AND CANNOT HEAR IT?

Romans 1 is true… rather you believe it or not. Monergism acts independently of the human will. So,…
I was not saying I don’t believe it’s true, I was saying that if you deny that satan blinds unbellievers that they are blind and cannot see the light of the gospel, then what is different than me denying paul in romans 1? But you now agree that they are blind and I also agree, people are responsible and God punishes them for their evil choices. That’s what a loving God does.

  1. What are you persuading if Paul is not trying to persuade the human will?
    A person.

  2. How does God act independently of the human will and at the same time need to persuade the human will?
    God does as he pleases. How does God persuade and NOT TRY TO SAVE SOMONE - which in another thread you claimed God does not try to save anyone. If God is persuading (via paul) than how is that different than he is trying to save that person?

As I see our big disagreement, you believe that Lydia was not a recipient of God’s mercy which lead her to being a worshipper of God. I would argue Lydia was an object of mercy prior to her hearing the gospel. So you’re being saved is based on you decision to let God save you and that in itself is not an act of God working in your life…IN other words God did not humble you that you would call on the name of the lord, You humbled youself then God acted. I say, God ALONE humbles the arrogant for arrogance CANNOT logically commit suicide.

Aug

#60

Aug.

you said: 1) What are you persuading if Paul is not trying to persuade the human will?
A person.

Aaron37: C’mon Auggy, really? We know Paul is talking to a person. What in the person is Paul trying to persuade? If monergism were true,( God working independently from the human will) why would Paul need to persuade anything? ( God bypasses the human will to regenerate people, huh Aug?)According to Monergism, God does not need our cooperation to be born again, the gospel is preached…the Holy Spirit goes in and regenerates our spirits. The Holy Spirit works independently from the human will…So why does a person need to be persuaded to believe if God works independently from the human will?

you said: 2) How does God act independently of the human will and at the same time need to persuade the human will?
God does as he pleases. How does God persuade and NOT TRY TO SAVE SOMONE - which in another thread you claimed God does not try to save anyone. If God is persuading (via paul) than how is that different than he is trying to save that person?

Aaron37: God does as he pleases? A person? … These answers are the best you can do when defending monergism? Wow.

No, Auggy, our biggest disagreement is you don’t comprehend anything I say. I have to repeat myself often because you do not grasp anything I say. I never said that you get saved because of your decision to let God save you… I never said it was not an act of God working in your life… This is your distorted understanding of my view, not mine…