The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How are we saved..the same as Lydia..free-will choice..

Theology Biblical Theology
#61

A37,
you are right that I am confused by you words. But don’t assume it’s because you have everything wired. I am confused because you say so many things which seem to conflict logically. If I am to be convinced you are right then you’ll have to be sound and logical; so far as I understand you - you are not.

If you cannot see that logically you have not answered the question, through what seem hundreds of posts, then I’m afraid you’ll never get it. If you can at least say “I see why you are confused so let me explain this” then perhaps we’ll get somewhere. So far you have not been even able to see why LFW has it’s difficulties.


You stated in response to people being blinded by the god of this world: Sure their blind to it…as was I and yourself. Not blinded to the fact they cannot make a free-will choice to put their faith in Jesus. Auggy, I was once in bondage to the false theology of Calvinism…I do not wish to be entangled by it again…

**So here it is:

  1. people are blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
  2. they are not blind to the reality of free will to put their faith in Jesus

If people cannot understand the gospel then why would they put their faith in Jesus?**

Thus I have questioned if God comes and removes the blind eyes of the unbeliever, is this DONE in respect to their free will? Because you also state that the reason God opened Lydia’s heart to the gospel was because SHE WAS ALREADY A WORSHIPPER OUTSIDE OF GOD HAVING MERCY ON HER?

Basically I see you saying that Lydia, before the gospel was preached, was a god fearing woman (worshipper) and that is why God did not overwhelm a “rank” sinner in order to force a change of heart. As stated earlier in the commentary:

Whatever God did to Lydia’s heart, He did not have to force her to want to serve Him. She wanted that. She was already His worshiper, albeit in accordance with limited and outdated knowledge of His will. In Lydia’s case, God did not directly overwhelm a rank sinner who had no inclination to do right in order to force a change of heart. Those who claim He does so today have no basis for it from this conversion account.

**Does God open the heart of a NON God worshipping unbeliever so that they can accpet the message of Paul? If you say yes then why the above paragraph makes no sense because the writer is stating that her being a worshipper is what qualifies the fact that God is not overwhelming the rank sinner. **

Thus I find your “equal opportunity” to be in question: For Lydia had some good expereineces, good parents or good friends that BEFORE THE GOSPEL came to her, she was willing to listen.

Unfortunatley (casino theology) for the NON GOD WORSHIPPER they had bad expereiences, bad parents, bad friends who makes them UNWILLING to listen.

If you cannot understand my confusion then we probably should end this conversation. If you can at least admit that you see why YOU come off confusing then perhaps we might get somewhere.

#62

Aug.
Sorry, I just feel like I’m repeating myself over and over. I have walked in monergism shoes too, so you are not telling me anything I don’t already know. Been there, Auggy. Please respond to this before we go around the mountain again:

We know Paul is talking to a person. What in the person is Paul trying to persuade? If monergism were true,( God working independently from the human will) why would Paul need to persuade anything? ( God bypasses the human will to regenerate people, huh Aug?)According to Monergism, God does not need our cooperation to be born again, the gospel is preached…the Holy Spirit goes in and regenerates our spirits. The Holy Spirit works independently from the human will…So why does a person need to be persuaded to believe if God is working independently from the human will?

#63

I’ll do my best to answer it again but if you don’t like it, it’s because you already are convinced monergism is completely wrong. So no matter what someone says, even if it’s right, you won’t accept it. So heres how monergists that I know of answer.

Monergism does not say mans cooperation is not needed but rather secondary. Since men are enslaved and blind they need God to free them from the slavery they are in. They cannot EVEN WANT to be freed while they are enslaved because the slavery cases them to not want to be freed. Such scriptures would be pauls words who states “While we were sinners we were controlled by our sinful nature.” Thus mans cooperation for being freed from enslavement is not required.

I hear you saying that is also true in your view, that God openes the heart of EVERYONE (equal opportunity) and thus they then can choose.

So in both Monergism and your view GOD ACTS INDEPENDENTLY of the human will.

Now the difference is that Monergism says that the reason the person accepts the gospel is because God softens them (romans 9) and that results NOT IN A CHOICE but IN THEIR RECEIVING MERCY. FOR GOD HAVING MERCY DOES NOT DEPEND ON MANS EFFORTS OR DESIRES. In LFW it does.

You think you’ve been addressing these but I can’t find where. I hear you over and over and over restating free will is true therefore monergism can’t be true But that’s what we’re debating here. As I stated monergism is true so how can free will be true. You’re presupposition does not allow you to hear the other side. You formerly being a monergist means nothing to me. I too was a libertarian free will believer but no more. Does that prove to you I’m right? If it does nothing to prove my point then why in the name of God would you think that helps you prove yours. My point is this Aaron37, don’t waste time and kilobytes telling people “been there, done that” - well that’s true for us too; Eternal Hell, been there done that…therfore you should know it’s false. Man if you cannot understand that much, then good luck and join the jim jones drink the punch suckers church of america. I for one will not drink the punch becasue you say you once believed something and have now switched.

Most people on this site are thoughtful and really want to have discussions but it requires them to admit their difficulties. You are not ready for that because you are convinced that the verses you raise prove free will. And since you once were a calvinist then that means your free will position must be right. Calvinists would simply reply, you used to be right but you fell away from the truth by believing the lie that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SOUL. they would claim you endorse…God helps those, who help themselves. So you must have fallen from the truth.

Let me say this as we come to the close of our discussion. YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED MOST OF THE DIFFICULTIES. All you do is say romans 1 (as if that even addresses the issue) and you think you’ve tackeled the difficulty.

So here it is again: (from your own words)

  1. people are blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
  2. they are not blind to the reality of free will to put their faith in Jesus

If people cannot understand the gospel then why would they put their faith in Jesus?

You are saying they are required to accept the gospel (which they cannot see) but they are to put their faith in the object of that gospel (Jesus)? HOW? If you don’t address this then we simply cannot continue (also JP raised this in early responses to you - so it’s nothing new - and you never addressed him either).

#64

Aug.

you said:

So here it is again: (from your own words)

  1. people are blinded by the god of this world so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
  2. they are not blind to the reality of free will to put their faith in Jesus

If people cannot understand the gospel then why would they put their faith in Jesus?

You are saying they are required to accept the gospel (which they cannot see) but they are to put their faith in the object of that gospel (Jesus)? HOW? If you don’t address this then we simply cannot continue (also JP raised this in early responses to you - so it’s nothing new - and you never addressed him either).

Aaron37: Yes, it is a fact… Man is blinded by the god of this world, but the truth is when the word of God is preached to man… God commands light to shine out of darkness into men’s hearts.( 2 Cor 4:6) The glorious gospel of Jesus Christ can penetrate the worst darkness the devil can produce. Truth trumps fact. When the word of God is preached the faith of God is released to the sinner to give him the ability to make a choice the same way Lydia did in Acts 16:14.

I have addressed these questions…you just can’t wrap your mind around it because of the strongholds you possess in your thinking. I’m tired going around the mountain. I pray you come to the truth as I did. God bless.

#65

What about people who have ‘deconverted’ from a genuine Christian faith to another religion? Did they ‘see the light’, but suddenly blinded?

#66

I think it’s time we changed the name of these forums to ‘Well that just about wraps it up for UR’ :stuck_out_tongue:

#67

You mean you’re done with UR? Or just exhausted?

#68

Dondi.

I’m not saying it is impossible to renounce Christ if you are genuinely born again… it does not happen very often.

#69

There is a difference between renouncing Christ out of a rebellious heart *and *no longer believing Christ due to honest inquiry.

#70

Dondi.

Again, if you are truly born again or regenerated…very few people completely become apostate.

#71

Would someone pursuing God in another religion be considered apostate?

#72

Dondi.

No, Apostate is defined as renouncing ones faith.

#73

Aaron,
I think I’m starting to sort out your position now. Still yet I have more questions in order to understand exactly how to progress our discussion.

Back on How are we saved..the same as Lydia..free-will choice..
You stated that everyone is created with this intuitive knowledge? then…
How are we saved..the same as Lydia..free-will choice..
You state that it’s something they can either accept or reject?

How exactly do they reject this intuitive knowledge they are created with? If they reject this intuitive knowledge how will they ever be saved? I thus will assume that when that day comes (the first time the gospel is preached) they CANNOT be saved for they rejected the one thing that gives them the choice?

I have addressed these questions…you just can’t wrap your mind around it because of the strongholds you possess in your thinking.
I can’t wrap my mind around because you say things which are confusing like:

  1. Everyone’s created with this intuitive knowledge.
  2. When the gospel is preached they can reject this intuitive knowledge or accept it.

I’m tired going around the mountain. I pray you come to the truth as I did. God bless. That’s what the Mormons say as well and I’ll tell you what I tell them.
I’m tired of going around the mountain. I pray you come to the truth as I did. God bless.

Aug

#74

It’s this type of confusion that Libertarians want so much to employ and yet can’t even make sense of it in their presentations.

The difficulties of LFW are easy to understand and not easily diffused. Libertarians want desperately to say men know what they are doing and thus are cuplable but can’t explain why Jesus would pray “forgive them for they know NOT what they do”.

So far in my experience, Libertarians offer a rendering of Romans 1 that IF GOD WOULD NOT OPEN THE EYES OF THE UNBELIEVER they would have an excuse REGARDLESS OF CREATION.

I read paul stating, NO ONE WILL HAVE AN EXCUSE and it’s not because he says God will open their eyes and then they become culpable. It’s because (I’ll let paul say it): since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

But then Paul comes along and says: The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

The difficulty is not hard to see, no one will have an excuse and every unbeliever is blind.

I also have charged that this argument by libertarians requires proof that man is put into a nuetral position; that is he neither serves God nor the devil. For if a man is brought to the point of choice and God has freed him from his bondage by the preaching of the gospel then who, at that time, is he enslaved to? I present pauls words that either you are a slave to sin or to righteoussness. I present Jesus’ own words that you cannot serve two masters - you will serve one or the other. And no where does scripture ever state there are points where we are neither saved nor lost.

Thus far the LFW/ECT viewpoint fails to convince me that God grants men a choice to damn themselves forever.

Aug

#75

Aug.

  1. How exactly do they reject this intuitive knowledge they are created with?

As Paul explained in Romans 1:18-20, every person who has ever lived has had God reveal Himself to them, but this verse is explaining that revelation is not always received. Each individual has the freedom of choice.

In verses 21-23, Paul describes different characteristics of those who reject God’s revelation. These could also be descriptive of progressive steps that one takes away from the true revelation of God.

The first step in rejecting God is not to glorify Him as the supreme, all knowing, unquestionable God. This is what happened with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. They questioned God’s intent behind His command (Gen. 3:1-6). They ceased to magnify and honor God as they once did. Submission to God as supreme is always humbling and therefore “self” rebels. This is very prevalent today.

Secondly, they were not thankful. This is always a sign that self is exalting itself above God. A selfless person can be content with very little. A self-centered person cannot be satisfied. Thankfulness is a sign of humility and cultivating a life of thankfulness will help keep “self” in its proper place.

After these first two steps have been taken, then the individual’s mind is freed to begin imagining foolish, wicked, and idolatrous thoughts . This leads to a hardened heart and being reprobate

  1. If they reject this intuitive knowledge how will they ever be saved?

See Above.

  1. I thus will assume that when that day comes (the first time the gospel is preached) they CANNOT be saved for they rejected the one thing that gives them the choice?

Not exactly… you willingly chose with your eyes wide open to reject this knowledge. You can reject the knowledge of God to where he gives you over to your hardened heart to the point of reprobation. Romans 1:28

Again, If you respond positively or stay neutral to the intuitive knowledge given you…you will be given opportunities to believe the gospel.

#76

But does this choice require the gospel being preached? If so then how did people prior to the gospel get a fair shot?

Actually the text (gen 3) says nothing of the sort. Actually she believed the serpent and was deceived. She thought she would not die and she would be like God.

LOL after they sin then they are free to sin?

  1. I thus will assume that when that day comes (the first time the gospel is preached) they CANNOT be saved for they rejected the one thing that gives them the choice?

But just as I presented 4 scripture which show God reconciled the world to himself and you did not provide 1 scripture which states God reconciled himself to the world, I WILL SHOW YOU a scripture which says that you are either a slave to sin or to God.

Romans 6: 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

So here is what I understand LFW offereing:
The gospel is preached
The person is no longer a slave to sin (the gospel is preached and they are free to finally make a choice)
the person is not a slave to righteousness (they have not made up their mind).

How would you persuade me to buy your proposition in light of this?

#77

:smiling_imp: Surely the case for ECT has now been established beyond doubt! :smiley:

#78

“Is God for me?” If the answer lists some merit in the answer (other than the cross) then all is lost. “He first loved us”

The impatience of the religious seldom comes up with the right answer. Instead, “He is for you, IF…”

Then watch them throw scripture around like spit-wads until the questioner is convinced that God is not for him, yet…

#79

Aaron37,
Have you given up? Have you thrown in the towel and become convinced there is no helping me? I have been trying to understand the LFW position you endorse but due to conflicting messages, I’m forced to ask those questions. Now perhaps we can tone down the sarcasm and really talk. Are you up to it?