How God Became King


#1

Subtitled : The Forgotten Story of the Gospels. N.T. Wright

Very good so far - I’m about halfway through it and have marked up a lot of it. He stresses the point that even in the ‘great creeds’ (his words), the thoughts go from Christ’s birth to his death, with nothing in between! For instance, the Nicene Creed:
" For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;"

Nothing about what the Gospels were trying to tell us, Thus the reason for the book.

One little nugget, off the main path of the book:
image

This is part of Tom’s larger theme, that God’s becoming king of the earth through his Son was NOT to deliver us to some extra-dimensional heaven, but so that His will would be done on Earth as it is in heaven.
A very rewarding study.


#2

That sounds really interesting. It raises a further interesting scenario… could it be that… “man made in His image” was NOT a generic statement about the creation of mankind in general, BUT about certain ones in particular (Adam/Israel) being “made” i.e., appointed, to bear and reflect His image — being image bearers… the difference between “created” and “made”.

Just a thought


#3

Provocative!! Worth keeping in mind.


#4

The problem I have with that viewpoint, Davo - is this. It works on the assumption that God ONLY spoke to Israel. And ONLY made their decedents - in their image. But I believe he spoke to other people. Much like the folks believe, at the Christian Red Road ministries. And their Medicine and Holy People, lived lives consistent with that “image of God in them”. And are every bit as saintly, as RC and EO church saints. Including access to the same healings and miracles.


#5

Well Yahweh did indeed speak with and have other people apart from Israel through whom He worked, BUT Israel became the primary source, avenue and means of salvific blessing in the earth. Israel became (was made—appointed) as a kingdom of priests AND it was possible for outsiders to join their clan… Ruth and Rahab being examples of such that came into covenant relationship, and “covenant” here is the key.


#6

Another tidbit:

image


#7

Another thing is that there was NO Internet, radio, mobile phone or TV…back in the days of Israel. So HOW did God communicate his message, to folks in Europe, Asian and the Americas (North and South America)? We can argue that God’s message, was solely for the people of Israel. Or those in the Americans, may argue they also have a covenant with God - which I side with. And he spoke to them , in visions and oral tradition (Wisdom tradition. Akin to Sacred Tradition of Christianity) .But now that the Christian gospel is proclaimed. And we have global communication, it’s a different story. Christianity is for the world.

Actually, Israel as a people, really didn’t get it. So often they strayed. So often their kings strayed. Only their prophets remained true - for the most part.

As a point of interest, the book Fools Crow - was written by a Lutheran minister. And the book does cover the life, of a Native American holy person and Roman Catholic. But also presents the convenient view - I’ve mentioned earlier.

Bottom line. It’s not everyone, joining the Israel covenant party. But God also making other convenants, before the time of Chris and mass communication. But now that Christianity is here, God needs to take everyone now - to the river of life. :smile:


#8

You make an interesting point R.
BUT the theme of the book and of this OP is the lack of attention given to the gospels and what their message really IS - so mebbe we can try to stick with that? For awhile?
I"ve got a raging toothache. There’s probably an herb or something that would relieve it, but there is no shaman around. :wink:


#9

Gee wiz, Dave. You sound like one of those zombies…from The Walking Dead or Fear The Walking Dead TV shows. Or the most probable, tribulation model - with the Zombie Apocalypse. If they could speak - that is.

Sure, there is a homeopathic, herbal or traditional (i.e. prescription or over the counter), remedy for every ailment. You just need to research and find it. And I can neither confirm nor deny anything - my typical CIA answer. As it might be construed, as giving medical advice. :wink:


#10

I had already edited my post to remove the obviously irascible statements, but thanks anyway.
4 ibuprofen at a time don’t touch it Tomorrow I will see the modern-day shaman, a dentist…:wink:


#11

Here’s a short video, to help you prepare. :wink:


#12

Hey, how about the second ‘tidbit’ I posted above? Sort of expected a comment or two.


#13

I like it quite a bit. Actually, Anglican N.T. scholar and bishop, N.T. Wright - is one of my favorite, contemporary theologians. Alongside the Eastern Orthodox theologians. There is little that he says, that I would find major disagreements with. We can continue any dialogue later. I’m going out and enjoy the nice weather.

As a plug for the book…folks can see the Amazon reviews and ratings at How God Became King: The Forgotten Story of the Gospels. It’s gotten a very good reception there.


#14

Thank you.


#15

Tidbit 3:
image


#16

Interesting… especially that last paragraph. I wonder if the… “less ready to hear” notion may be due to not seeing certain expectations as having been met DUE TO the fleshly eyes through which such has been viewed — not in fact a new story, see for example, Jn 6:15; Acts 1:6.


#17

I’m not sure that tells the complete story (and who’s actually arguing that, not me). God’s message to Israel was one of covenant commitment so as to enable the greater message of God’s goodness to reach those beyond… Israel was the chosen nation given this mandate.

Yep that’s not a new concept… my observations tell me plenty of Americans do indeed believe their brand of religianity has a mortgage on God.


#18

It’s a matter of perspective. How do we INTERPRET oral tradition? Whether we call it Wisdom tradition or Sacred Tradition. Which is something passed down through the ages. For the most part, Protestants ignore the RC and EO concept of Sacred Tradition. And end up with tons, of different scriptural perspectives - looking at Holy Scripture alone…

And how does God communicate his message to the world - before Christ? When Israel was a spot on the map? And there was not mass communication? For the record, the Native Americans have centuries, of consistent oral traditions. Some we could argue predates God’s communication to Israel. And some of the same stories, in the O.T. (i.e Flood)…are found in Native American oral tradition (see Red Road).

And SHOW ME in the Protestant Old Testament, where God says he ONLY communicated - his message to Israel? Or ONLY spoke to the O.T. prophets? Maybe I’m missing something, where an expert here - can enlighten me.

And if mankind started from one bloodline…then how do we know, that ALL the world - didn’t have some ancestral blood from Israelite’s? And God would make ways, to communicate his message…to those following the one TRUE God (as they perceived it)… because they really had Israel ancestral bloodlines?


#19

Well… maybe it’s time for you to unblock your zombie-laden ears and read AGAIN what you I just right HERE:

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#20

Was there a link there? If so, nothing happened when I clicked it. Maybe one of the zombies…from last night’s Fear The Walking Dead…invaded the system? :wink: