The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

What is such a stretch about Mueller being implicated by some as “deep state”? If he couldn’t coerce the right people, then he couldn’t–but not for lack of trying.

And what is “deep state”?

From Wikipedia:

A deep state (from Turkish: derin devlet), also known as a state within a state, is a form of clandestine government made up of hidden or covert networks of power operating independently of a nation’s political leadership, in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. Examples include organs of state, such as the armed forces or public authorities (intelligence agencies, police, secret police, administrative agencies, and government bureaucracy). A deep state can also take the form of entrenched, career civil servants acting in a non-conspiratorial manner, to further their own interests. The intent of a deep state can include continuity of the state itself, job security for its members, enhanced power and authority, and the pursuit of ideological objectives. It can operate in opposition to the agenda of elected officials, by obstructing, resisting, and subverting their policies, conditions and directives. It can also take the form of Government-owned corporations or private companies that act independently of regulatory or governmental control.[1]

In the United States, the term “deep state” was used to describe “a hybrid association of government elements and parts of top-level industry and finance that is effectively able to govern the United States without reference to the consent of the governed as expressed through the formal political process.”[12][13] Intelligence agencies such as the CIA have been accused by elements of the Donald Trump administration of attempting to thwart its policy goals.[14] Writing for The New York Times, the analyst Issandr El Amani warned against the “growing discord between a president and his bureaucratic rank-and-file”, while analysts of the column The Interpreter wrote[14]:

Though the deep state is sometimes discussed as a shadowy conspiracy, it helps to think of it instead as a political conflict between a nation’s leader and its governing institutions.

— Amanda Taub and Max Fisher, The Interpreter

Another Wikipedia entry notes:

According to a poll of Americans in April 2017, about half (48%) thought there was a “deep state” (meaning “military, intelligence and government officials who try to secretly manipulate government”), while about a third (35%) of all participants thought it was a conspiracy theory and the remainder (17%) had no opinion. Of those who believe a “deep state” exists, more than half (58%) said it was a major problem, a net of 28% of those surveyed.

A March 2018 poll found most respondents (63%) were unfamiliar with the term “deep state”, but a majority believe that a deep state likely exists in the United States when described as “a group of unelected government and military officials who secretly manipulate or direct national policy”. Three-fourths (74%) of the respondents say that they believe this type of group definitely or probably exists in the federal government.

Also see:

The Swamp Fights Back

Isa 8:12 “Do not say, ‘A conspiracy,’ concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled. :shushing_face: :grin:

I’m pushing 73, and U.S. extremists here have feared a “conspiracy” as long as I can remember.

Tell me, Bob: do you believe that the devil is a real person? an angel who rebelled against God? (I already know that davo does not.)

If so, do you believe the following verses (ESV) might possibly indicate a supernatural conspiracy–“a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose”–against mankind?:

Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Matthew 4:8-9
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”

John 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

1 Corinthians 10:20
No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 2:1-2
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Revelation 20:2-3
2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

If so, do you believe Satan would attempt to raise up, or influence, members of the United States government (or of other governments)? and if so, that that could be, at least in part, the reason we are admonished to pray for our leaders (1 Tim. 2:1-2)?

What a woman!

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I could say the same thing, about this woman!

Yep, it goes especially well with the dispensational territory :crazy_face: lol

Certainly. But one has to wonder why the hero archtype story always (aside from people who break the mold) goes the same way… The hero endures injustice against him or others and the bad guy gets his in the end! Everyone loves that type of story… It is a formula that makes us feel good. On the other hand, I am sure a fundamentalist will tell me that is our sinful nature coming out. I can’t say I would agree with that and there is something to be said for people loving those who break down, see what they did was wrong and change. People love that too.

Well, I’m not at all a fundamentalist and reject Augustine’s idea of a fall, but I do embrace the Jewish tradition’s interpretation that human nature has always been a mixed bag. Thus I personally find it simplistic to discount the possibility that our egoic nature can come out, and sometimes does when we divide others into the good (us!) and the bad.

I also do think our pleasure in seeing others inferior to us get full vengeance can reflect our ego’s less grace-oriented side. Indeed, this discomfort with fundamentalism’s notion that seeing evil sinners “get theirs” in terms of the revenge they deserve in an endless hell is what led me to reject fundamentalism for a more universalist vision. It is actually Jesus’ call to return good for evil that challenges me.

Sure, I actually believe the power of the evil one influences all of us, and may especially be at work in some of our key leaders. But that does not lead me to find every conspiracy theory credible, either of the left or the right.

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Isn’t it fair to say, that if the above is challenging, then you might not fully buy into the concept? It seems to me, that if we struggle to do the “right” thing, then part of our being doesn’t believe, especially when we fall short. Additionally, does challenging really mean you are on the right track? It is challenging to learn to juggle, but does that mean we should learn to do it?

It seems to be scriptural and true to human experience, that fallen people WILL find that morality is a stretch. That’s the point.
OTOH, juggling? HAhahahahah

sorry for butting in, Bob.

Much of the stuff surrounding Trump is “grey” and IMHO Mueller if he wanted to could have recommended obstruction charges against Trump to please “the political left” and in doing so creating a huge political mess extending to the election. Mueller could have made himself into a star , been on all the talk shows, been a high priced CNN contributor, written a book with a 20 million dollar up front payment, become a celebrity. In the end he quietly closed up shop and left town and left it to the Justice Dept. He actually passed up fame and fortune and did the right thing.

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Yes human nature has always been a mixed bag, just look at Eve’s reactions before Satan ever said a word to her. We always had good and evil in us, Flip Wilson was wrong, the devil didn’t make us do it!

I think it’s his wife, that makes the claim!

Well, I never intended to claim that my own faith or belief is perfect, or even that I have no doubts about Jesus’ teaching. And I actually don’t see the sermon on the mount as a new law that applies in every situation, but more as portraits of the kind of heart that we are called to have. Application may call for profound wisdom.

Still, I meant by “challenging” that yes, I think there is something desirable here that I should learn to do. For I agree with Phillip Yancey, that the practice of an eye for an eye, tends to perpetuate a cycle where we all end up blind, and that Jesus’ challenging call to break that cycle and forgive, and reciprocate instead with something gracious is a great need.

I know in my experience, most of my regrets are about when my desire for revenge leads me to return evil for evil, whereas I have seen great blessing when I have resisted that egoic desire and displayed love instead.

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Yes.

First of all, our country was founded on ‘freedom’. You obviously think that law abiding citizens ‘freedom’ to own firearms should be somehow maligned by a psychopath that decides to use a gun to kill people as opposed to a bomb, a car, poison or any other instrument of evil.

One of our countries ‘Bill Of Rights’ is the second amendment. (You Should Read Our Constitution… you may be enlightened)

You may not agree or appreciate the complexity of an armed citizenry, but please, don’t mock it. You are an outsider and should conduct yourself as such.

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The irony lol… that’s EXACTLY what I’m FREE to do as one not hamstrung by group-think — but ultimately like I said… to each his own.

Hmm, group think = A Nations Constitution.

You gotta be able to do better than that.

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