The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper


Fascism has more to do, imo, with the willful ignoring of laws, the intentional ignoring of congress, the desire for open borders, and making unilateral decisions to undercut the constitution of the USA. That would be Obama.
I don’t see DJT doing those things - yet, at least.

It is true that , I think, most Americans are taxed first and hardest, are given the least amount of attention, and bear the fallout of bad decisions


“Lower healthcare expenses for people with expensive needs, less dependence on fossil fuels, and preserving our wild lands is “fascistic socialism”?”

It can be when the federal government intrudes past its Constitutional limits and restrictions. We have a Republic … not a democracy (huge difference) and our Republic has a very well defined role. We now have the so-called ‘deep state’, a very large and growing bureaucracy of unelected people who exercise power of the people and our daily lives. This is a growing fascistic socialism. We can see evidence in the many abuses of power within the FBI that have been unearthed over the past 18 months.

We should pay more attention to people like Alan Dershowitz, a life-long Democrat, a liberal, a Clinton supporter who is alarmed and speaking out against these abuses. I am a Libertarian politically. I have left the Republican Party because it too is yielding to the ‘deep state’ … to fascistic socialism.

An alarm went off this past election. Did you hear it?


Loud and clear! I hope we hear more of it in 2018/2020,


Me thinks if Plato and Aristotle, could time travel to this forum topic. …They would be right at home and fighting tooth and nail. :rofl:


That’s right - we should never talk about politics or religion :wink:


So it seems I can not put a smile face without a comment :smile:


Are you saying these are good things or bad?



As the person who made the original “fascistic socialism” remark, please let me clarify. First, I know what fascism is because I looked it up a couple weeks ago. It is authoritarian governance. It means the government gets to force me to pay for other people’s healthcare when I cannot afford my own healthcare. And I’m not even sick–my insurance, though, is in excess of $700/month. I could not pay that, but it’s coming out of my husband’s reserve because (despite getting a bone marrow transplant), he took very few sick days when he was working (he’s now retired). That is a small and dangerous (to me at least) symptom of fascistic socialism. If I had nothing (and presumably because of that chose to vote the Ds (not that the Rs are much better)), then someone else would have to pay for my insurance. As it is, I have to pay for someone else’s insurance. I do not work–or at least, I do not get paid. I take care of my Alzheimer’s suffering mother pretty much full time. Sorry if this offends anyone, but I would prefer that young people get a job (now that the job market is in most places, so much better) and buy their own health insurance.


Chad, that was Jim quoting something Qaz said. If I’m not mistaken, Qaz thinks those things are very good indeed, and who wouldn’t? Unless of course, one happens to be the person who gets the bill landed on their doorstep…


Sometimes when discussing religion or politics, you need a bit of Holy Fool humor. Fortunately, Sunil Bali provided some today at 10 Coco Chanel quotes to make you irresistibly bold :slight_smile:

  • A duck is waiting to cross a busy road.
    A chicken walks up to him and says, “Don’t do it, man. You’ll never hear the end of it.”

  • Why did the cows return to the Marijuana field?
    It was the pot calling the cattle back.

“The only person you are destined to become is the person you decide to be.”-- Ralph Waldo Emerson



The government sets the rules people need to follow in our pursuits of happiness. Everyone ends up paying for this, both directly through taxation and less directly through prohibition from using goods that the government delineates as the property of others. It’s not like people only end up paying for the rights of others when there’s a safety net program; the poor unhealthy person ends up paying for the property rights of the rich person just as much as you end up paying for the healthcare of the poor unhealthy person (yet for some reason you only seem to have a problem with the latter). Not having universal healthcare means the government forces the minority of people who are already disadvantaged (through physical discomfort) to compete for economic goods from an even more disadvantaged position (having to spend a large portion of their resources to stay alive or reduce physical discomfort). To call it fair for the government to say, “Under the rules we’re going to enforce, everyone gets to keep what he earns through his own labor, minus the resources needed to pay for this system. Some people will have to spend a large portion of their resources just to stay alive and/or not live in chronic discomfort, but most won’t!” – is absurd. I gladly vote against politicians who advocate systems that lean in that direction. Is it against my own economic self interest? You bet. I do it because of compassion.


No, Qaz, the middle class pays for both the helpless and the freeloader. If you really believe the rich are paying, then you are deceived. The point here… The endgame… is to abolish the middle class. Then the rich will pay for the needs of the poor… and if you believe that, you really ARE starry eyed. Fascist = authoritarian and socialism = redistribution of wealth. Hint the authoritarian government will no more give the stolen “wealth” of the former middle class to the poor than Hugo Chavez has done in the socialist “paradise” of Venezuela.


I wouldn’t characterize most people with expensive needs as either “helpless” or “freeloaders”. That sounds more like a hateful caricature than an accurate description of our neighbors who have chronic ailments. Your inaccurate depiction aside, did I say anything indicating the middle class doesn’t pay for the safety net? No. In fact, I explicitly said I vote against my own economic self interest when it comes to healthcare. (I’m certainly not rich!). Whose end game is it to abolish the middle class? What evidence do you have to prove your accusation? It sounds like conspiracy theory nonsense to me.

By conflating the platform of Democrats in this country to the Venezuelan government you’re engaging in nothing short of libel. You don’t actually think Democrats want to nationalize all the industries in this country, do you? A much better comparison would be to compare Democrats to the governments of Canada, Germany, and Scandinavia, countries which enjoy very high standards of living.


Quick question, Qaz… My contribution, in addition to taxes and exorbitantly expensive insurance is to care for my helpless mother (and no, it’s not hateful to call the helpless… helpless… that merely establishes the genuine need for help) after having spent many years carrying for my helpless grandfather. Since you think me uncaring, I think it would be only fair for you to disclose your own contribution to the needy amongst us.

I think Hugo Chavez is the perfect example, unless you want to call up Cuba… Both have been ecstaticly lauded by the darlings of the left. Both are stellar examples of the suddenly fashionable and desirable fascist dictatorship.


Excellent points qaz.



What about Cindy’s points? Are they not valid somehow?


Cindy makes some good points. I like Trump more than I used to because I see the problem isn’t so much Trump as it is postmodern social Marxism. Trump has his flaws morally but he seems to be doing okay so far. It’s the liberals who are relativistic in morality and truth that are causing the problems. The Bible commands us to work. And the main reason is so that we can help those in need like the elderly. I don’t think tax dollars going to help the needy is a problem. It’s called being a descent human being.


Well, I plan to do my part. When the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse occurs…I plan to set up, a Zombie relief fund. :wink:

Don’t forget to watch the AMC show tonight - The Walking Dead. And Fear the Walking Dead, in a few weeks time. :smile:


It’s certainly hateful to characterize people who benefit from the safety net as “freeloaders”. What I do doesn’t matter. You seem to be attempting to commit the tu quoque fallacy; you’re trying to prove that I don’t do enough for the needy to validate your contempt for people who benefit the safety net. What I do is irrelevant to the fact that a government that enforces libertarian property rights where everyone keeps what they earn minus the money needed to fund the system – is unfair to the people forced to live under it who are disadvantaged. Even though what I do is irrelevant to the question of how governments should treat their subjects, I’ll answer anyway with something I did just last week: I went to the local Catholic church and filled its clothing drop-box with clothing for the needy.

What policies do Democrats support that make you think they share more in common with socialist dictators like Chavez and Castro than social democratic leaders like the leadership in Canada, Germany, and Scandinavia?


Well, I work in a long term care facility and I would say there are those who ‘take quite advantage of the system,’ There are people who are totally capable of taking care of themselves and being productive members of society, who for what ever reason end up in a nursing home and like to be waited on. That is not to say they have not had a hard time of it, but I have to work for food, shelter, medical attention etc, And every paycheck I get a blob of money is taken out for others. I accept it cause it is what it is.

Cindy has devoted her time to a mother that quite frankly, there are others who would stick her in a place like I work and come and visit once a week. If that. And let the rest of us foot the bill. And she may HAVE to at some point. (or maybe she is already there) It is in my view less about taking care of the real needy than the responsibility and the need of government to have some accountability to the ones who’s money they are spending.

These are hard things. Most people who find themselves in a situation like that (having to go to a controlled place even though they could realistically take care of themselves) have personal social problems that to be honest the church could and should maybe be dealing with.